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IALEM
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« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2012, 06:26:44 AM »

According to F. Contreras from the University of Granada, horse bones in Argaric sites show they were used to carry large charges, maybe men,  but there are no cheekpieces as far as I know, so probably they were just used for work.
They were also sacrficed and eated, and as the bones are concentrated in the central, most fortified area of the cities, they were probably sacrificed in some sort of ceremony.
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« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2012, 09:58:37 AM »

I don't necessarily go along with sacrifices. I think there is too much thought in that direction. Perhaps the animals were simply used for food? Who knows how much food was at hand at the time, and what was needed to feed a number of people, or soldiers.

For instance I have heard cases where someone who burns wood for heat ran out of wood and actually used pieces of furniture. This doesn't mean that the furniture was sacrificed. It was just an easy way out of a situation.

I had wondered in the past if people like archaeologists who may have religious beliefs tend to think along those lines.

I may be barking up the wrong tree..perhaps the word sacrifice means something other than a religious thing. The linked article uses the word sacrifice. I don't understand how the word sacrifice is applied?
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-07/au-aea070312.php
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MostDK
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« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2012, 03:22:04 PM »

I like your argument, Oconnor.

If we doubt, we should ask. It is also to take science seriously.

Slightly off-topic: In Denmark, bogs used to sacrifice to their gods.
Specifically, I have asked Mads Kähler Holst, who wrote to me that the conclusion is based on the things that they find along with the bones and the course of action that they can reconstruct from the findings.
They will also check the DNA.
Further expected to be published next summer.
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Isidro
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« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2012, 09:55:14 AM »

Did anyone try to speculate about the possibility of R1b being present in this clear influence of the Levant, contemporaneous within a few centuries.
Traditionally, Iberian tribes  have been allocated 600BC and Tartessos-Phoenician 1200Bc at the earliest so we are talking 1000 years before anything known so far.

What are the chances that R1b traveled West across the Med bringing R1b-along with early IE language and using the Western Med as  a trampolin for Italic, Celtic and Germanic languages.
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« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2013, 09:15:48 AM »

Actually I can't stop thinking about this possible trading route machine Levant - Africa - along the coasts around Spain to Gent and of course copper mining British Isles. Look the big jewish communities by the rivers in Spain etc. Later on caravans Levant - India - China?

Over time, the impressive movement of goods, culture, religion and many different people.

Perhaps descendants of L11 migrated to Europe via different routes.

Regards, Morten
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 09:33:21 AM by MostDK » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2013, 01:12:27 AM »

Did anyone try to speculate about the possibility of R1b being present in this clear influence of the Levant, contemporaneous within a few centuries.
Traditionally, Iberian tribes  have been allocated 600BC and Tartessos-Phoenician 1200Bc at the earliest so we are talking 1000 years before anything known so far.

What are the chances that R1b traveled West across the Med bringing R1b-along with early IE language and using the Western Med as  a trampolin for Italic, Celtic and Germanic languages.

That is an option that I have always wondered about myself. If we really think about it and look at great city-states such as Carthage and Troy, the reach and sphere of influence must have been fairly extensive and Iberia seemed to get the earliest of explorers. The land really does divide, and the sea really does connect. Hmmmm.

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MostDK
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« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2013, 05:46:39 PM »

That that already from very early times has found extensive trade and thus cultural exchange place around the Mediterranean, there is probably no one who doubts.
We know probably only part of the story, but we do know about some various power struggles about the value of this trade.
La Bastida is an excellent part of all this, and I look forward to DNA results from there.
I think, however, that there must be assembled many small pieces over time and geography before we may see a pattern.

The reason I'm interested in the Jewish communities location is simply my perception of the Jews, that they through the ages have gone their own way since they left Ur, etc.
Perhaps they were driven out, otherwise they left these cultures because they did not like what was going on. They drift around, came together as a people. They were probably already at that time a little mixed of haplotypes. Maybe our Lord then gave them a common mutation, I do not know ...
Well, Jews adapted to and survived because of their understanding of trade. Many little creeks makes a big river! Therefore, the Jewish community often will be found near the trade routes, I think.

Trading routes:

a) Along the coast around Spain, Biscay to British Isles and Gent, Rhine. L238 went further north.

b) Perhaps Mil Espaine left Nothern Spain because others knew how to ship the goods from Lion Bay to Garonne / Toulouse - Gironde estuary.
However, I have not seen the old maps of the watershed roads, but it seems that the theory is a very good shot from the hip!

c) Another interesting connection is Gent, Rhine - Rhône, Marseilles.

Well, I jump consciously suffered tremendously in time to provoke a thought or two.

Regards, Morten
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« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2013, 05:37:59 PM »

Hello fellow travelers in our common DNA path. MostDK and Arch, interesting suggestions about possibilities.
I wish I could spend more time on this hobby but for  this period in time  for me it's very busy.
 I think that if we are talking about 3000BC in the Levant and 2200BC in the Western Mediterranean fortifications the names that History has assigned to them are very abstract, be Phoenician, Jewish, Iberian, Etruscan: it's just tag names in my opinion.

Iberia for example: for all the tribes known in the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years prior to the Greek tag name Iberia in 600BC, I am quite convinced that is not different than the name America and the variety of people living here today...

I have peeked into an interesting article (in Spanish of course :) anyway, it does try to connect El Argar (which is close in time to the fortification) to Tartessos and other "Iberian" tribes. I will send a link and you might want to use google translate at you own risk.

One suffix for tribe names really got my interest it is the Uli and Ula, and there might be a connection not only to R1b but also to R1a...but I am jumping the gun.

At first I thought, well; that sound is Universal found in Hawaii, Asia ... you name it. Also in Latin it is a diminutive so really the idea  started fizzling out for any hope of connection,so I went to a seemingly absurd word search and came up with some cool stuff names like Vistula, Ursula, Eulalia etc etc...anyway like I said it could be a diamond in the rough or just an illusion.

Link:
http://www.tartessos.info/html/ulas.htm

"ULA culture may be associated with the cultures of Los Millares and EL Argar and either identifying it with any of them or considering an evolution. The culture center Ula we place it in the territory of the tribe of the Bastuli, where in the name of the tribe is looking the terms b-as (u)-t-uli, interpretable as "In (b) Asu tribe (t ) Ula ". In its surroundings also find names that evoke the name: Mulhacen peak, peak Chullo, Padules people, Berchules, Pulpi, Aulago, Bujulú, Bolaimí, Olula de Castro, Olula del Rio, Uleila rural and Perulera, all in Almería, and maybe also the river Mula Murcia."

Cheers



« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 09:02:54 AM by Isidro » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2013, 06:00:24 AM »

Thanks Isidro,

Interesting thought.

On the reliefs, found in the pyramids of Egypt from 2600 BC, is painted large sea-going vessels (King Sahurés ships, 30 of them).

Small boats we know about already from 5000 BC.

I think that this is the time frame we're talking about. I wonder if it is a good expression of those days maritime skills around the Mediterranean.

Regards, Morten
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« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2013, 11:14:31 PM »

I've heard of Egyptian artifacts being found in Iberia. Of all things Iberian, I really thought this is an interesting piece. http://goo.gl/7dbS3. Also, follow the link to Egyptian Blue. I would not be the least bit surprised if there is some sort of Hittite and Egyptian connection. If the Phocaean Greeks managed to get to Empuries around 500 BCE, and the Phoenicians even earlier at around 800 to 1,200 BCE, why not Egyptians and Hittites or Wilusans? I just can't imagine a great city like Troia not having some distant maritime connection with its port filled with a bunch of bored mariners who only dared to travel along the Aegean Sea and coasting along the Levant. Why does history make these people seem incapable?

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« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2013, 09:52:45 AM »

looks like an unimpressed Kuan Yin
Isn't 4200 Years ago a bit early for hittites to be colonizing that far away? Although it seems possible pressure from hittites advancing to Anatolia may have been at least a partial cause for these people to migrate
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