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IALEM
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« on: September 28, 2012, 02:16:22 AM »

The city has an extraordinarily complex and advanced fortification system unknown at the time in Western Europe and clearly reminiscent of the Near East. Archaeologists think it is the making of Near East colonists arriving to Murcia (SE Spain) around 2200 BC. Aonther prove of the contacts between the Mediterranean coast of Spain and the Eastern Mediterranean cultures.
Link in Spanish
http://cultura.elpais.com/cultura/2012/09/27/actualidad/1348779950_910952.html
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« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2012, 03:33:48 AM »

The city has an extraordinarily complex and advanced fortification system unknown at the time in Western Europe and clearly reminiscent of the Near East. Archaeologists think it is the making of Near East colonists arriving to Murcia (SE Spain) around 2200 BC. Aonther prove of the contacts between the Mediterranean coast of Spain and the Eastern Mediterranean cultures.
Link in Spanish
http://cultura.elpais.com/cultura/2012/09/27/actualidad/1348779950_910952.html

Here is a link to an English version. This is an extradordinary find and further evidence  of the migration route from Anatolia to Iberia. Could it be linked to Bell Beaker. It reminds me of the fortifications at Myceae.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-09/uadb-lb092712.php
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Heber


 
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glentane
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« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2012, 07:36:07 AM »

Great site IALEM. Never heard of it before.
The region has its own extensive and very interesting website (as in, lots of pictures! my Spanish is pretty ropey lol) on La Bastida. Loads of extra sub-pages, which are easily missed.

http://www.regmurcia.com/servlet/s.Sl?sit=c,641
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Jean M
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« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2012, 10:08:54 AM »

Oh golly! Looks like the Iberes arriving.
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MostDK
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« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2012, 10:32:57 AM »

Thanks for this link. Very interesting.

Hundreds of graves. DNA?

Regards, Morten
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2012, 05:39:16 PM »

Thanks for this link. Very interesting.

Hundreds of graves. DNA?

Regards, Morten

There is no mention of DNA testing in any of the websites mentioned. Hopefully it will be done and published. Someone should send an email to find out if that is in the works.


Quote
En la zona arqueológica de La Bastida de Totana se han hallado cerca de 140 tumbas, de las que más de cien son enterramientos en urna y en cista.

At the  La Bastida de Totana archaeological site about 140 graves were found, of which over a hundred are burials in urn and cist.

http://www.regmurcia.com/servlet/s.Sl?sit=c,641,m,2553&r=ReP-13768-DETALLE_REPORTAJESPADRE
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Heber
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« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2012, 10:48:24 PM »

I visited the ancient ruins of Mycenae last year and am struck by the similarity with this site, the massive stone walls, the towers, the Lion Gates, the hillside fortification. This site is compared to Troy which was also linked to Mycenae. Was this city founded by refugees from Troy or Mycenae?

"ScienceDaily (Sep. 27, 2012) — The archaeological excavations carried out this year at the site of La Bastida (Totana, Murcia) have shed light on an imposing fortification system, unique for its time. The discovery, together with all other discoveries made in recent years, reaffirm that the city was the most advanced settlement in Europe in political and military terms during the Bronze Age (ca. 4,200 years ago -- 2,200 BCE), and is comparable only to the Minoan civilisation of Crete."

"One of the most relevant architectural elements discovered is the ogival arched postern gate, or secondary door, located near the main entrance. The arch is in very good conditions and is the first one to be found in Prehistoric Europe. Precedent can be found in the second city of Troy (Turkey) and in the urban world of the Middle East (Palestine, Israel and Jordan), influenced by the civilisations of Mesopotamia and Egypt. This indicates that people from the East participated in the construction of the fortification. These people would have reached La Bastida after the crisis which devastated their region 4,300 years ago. It was not until some 400 to 800 years later that civilisations like the Hittites and Mycenaeans, or city-states such as Ugarit, incorporated these innovative methods into their military architecture."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120927091542.htm

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/05/0514_040514_troy.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae





« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 10:55:55 PM by Heber » Logged

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A.D.
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« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2012, 10:58:39 PM »

Is this the one that was flooded and buried under sand at some point. It has a depiction of a guy with a sward and some concentric circles behind him. It had the nickname 'new atlantis' a while back.
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Jean M
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2012, 04:16:59 AM »

Flooded? Buried under sand? This is an inland site on a hill.
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glentane
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2012, 12:14:04 PM »


Quote
En la zona arqueológica de La Bastida de Totana se han hallado cerca de 140 tumbas, de las que más de cien son enterramientos en urna y en cista.

At the  La Bastida de Totana archaeological site about 140 graves were found, of which over a hundred are burials in urn and cist.

http://www.regmurcia.com/servlet/s.Sl?sit=c,641,m,2553&r=ReP-13768-DETALLE_REPORTAJESPADRE
Oh right, when I read "urn burial" I was thinking "in-urned cremation" (=hydriotaphia, as you do, round here ...) therefore no DNA. But what your link shows is a very nice pithos burial. An entirely different kettle of, er, fish :)

(Old article (1974) from Am. J. Arch.)
Quote
The typical western Anatolian burial custom in the third millennium B.C. was pithos burial in extramural cemeteries
and was adopted by, or extended to,  Minoans and Helladics (possibly by Early Helladic II/III, ca. 2300 BC [note 41, p 485])

Quote from: Wheeler, TS
This form of burial appears at the very end of the EM period [i.e. ca. 2160 BC. ; glentane] at the same sites where larnax burial is more or less contemporarily introduced. It becomes far more popular in the MM period. Pithos burial is common in western Anatolia in the Early Bronze Age and also occurs in the Final Neolithic cemetery at Kephala on Keos and in the EH II “round graves” on Lefkas. It is, however, relatively rare during the Early Bronze Age on the Greek Mainland and in the Cyclades, while in the Middle Bronze Age in these areas it is a form used mostly for the burial of children and infants.

and, fearlessly,
Quote
Burial types other than jars may have existed in small numbers in other western Anatolian cemeteries; the archaeological evidence on this point is by no means complete. Pithos burial was however the dominant custom and may be called a typical trait of a western Anatolian cultural complex.
[my emphasis]

Her (Wheeler's) discussion of the Iasos cemeteries is worthwhile,
Quote
In the southern part of this geographical zone, the majority of excavated tombs are at Iasos where a uniform burial custom prevails. All the tombs are stone cists, built either of stone slabs or field stones. A rectangular box formed of four slabs placed on edge is standard ..
So it's not just a Corded Ware/Beaker thang at this date .. also has a possible autochthonous Anatolian highlands/Cycladic origin.

El Argar has pithos-burial for kids from Argaric B [approx. 1600 BC onwards] so I'm kind of guessing these La Bastida ones are of similar age? Or not?
From that La Bastida link, one of the diagnostics for the Argaric complex is the familiar EBA change of burial type from collective to single-grave (mostly), with indications of social ranking, and grave-goods.
Quote
Uno de los rasgos que identifica de forma más significativa a la cultura argárica es el ritual funerario.
mostly short-ish cists, contracted body, in the earliest Argaric phases. Unlike the Anatolian ones, there's no separate necropolis or cemetery as such, just various zones within the streets of the stronghold. Maybe apprehensive of desecration, by hostiles?
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La práctica más frecuente de enterramiento en el poblado de La Bastida es la inhumación en urna
At La Bastida, rather than cists, most burials were in pots, under house-floors, in a corner, near the door, inside or outside by the wall.  Burials of all ages and ranks, mostly children (very high infant mortality).
Quote
Los enterramientos infantiles casi siempre son en urna y podían disponer de ajuar funerario
as in the East, kids in pots, occasional goods.


Anyway, deep waters indeed, well above my pay grade, all these different Eastern Med types apparently pitching up at various times in the west end of the Med.
Think I'd better go and do some serious reading ... :)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 12:32:06 PM by glentane » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2012, 05:46:57 PM »

Pretty fascinating if it was a levantine or west Anatolian group landing slap  in the middle of the southern beaker zone c. 2300/2200BC.  As Jean posted it is very tempting to see this a the non-IE wedge that pushed into what had been a fairly well connected southern beaker provence running from Portugal to Italy.  Very very tempting to see the Iberians in these people although other options cannot be ruled out. 

I have always found the faction of linguists who see Iberian and Aquitanian (Basque) as distant cousins as fairly convincing and that has tempted me to see them as Cardial originated because the apparent odd geographical gap between Iberian and Aquitanian actually makes sense if a Cardial origin is adopted because Cardial has a similar distribution on either side of the Pyrennees with a group in Aquitania apparently an offshoot from the Med. who headed up through the rivers of SW France to reach the Aquitanian coast, leaving a gap in between.  That seems to match the geography and also gives a deep enough time depth of seperation. 

I have an open mind on this one.
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« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2012, 09:08:22 AM »

Pretty fascinating if it was a levantine or west Anatolian group landing slap  in the middle of the southern beaker zone c. 2300/2200BC.  As Jean posted it is very tempting to see this a the non-IE wedge that pushed into what had been a fairly well connected southern beaker provence running from Portugal to Italy.  Very very tempting to see the Iberians in these people although other options cannot be ruled out. 

I have always found the faction of linguists who see Iberian and Aquitanian (Basque) as distant cousins as fairly convincing and that has tempted me to see them as Cardial originated because the apparent odd geographical gap between Iberian and Aquitanian actually makes sense if a Cardial origin is adopted because Cardial has a similar distribution on either side of the Pyrennees with a group in Aquitania apparently an offshoot from the Med. who headed up through the rivers of SW France to reach the Aquitanian coast, leaving a gap in between.  That seems to match the geography and also gives a deep enough time depth of seperation. 

I have an open mind on this one.
From Cardial Wares to 2200 BC is a good 2500 years or more, right? I don't know but a lot could have happened (movement of peoples in and out) between Cardial Wares and the time of this site.
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Jean M
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« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2012, 09:19:15 AM »

Pretty fascinating if it was a levantine or west Anatolian group landing slap  in the middle of the southern beaker zone c. 2300/2200BC.  As Jean posted it is very tempting to see this a the non-IE wedge that pushed into what had been a fairly well connected southern beaker province running from Portugal to Italy. 

I had already begun to suspect that the Iberes were a post-Copper-Age intrusive group. For a start it looks like they were localised in one area of the SE coast when first encountered by Greeks. Looks from place-names like they spread over territory that been IE-speaking. I just didn't connect the dots that point to the Argaric culture. As usual there has been an assumption of continuity - in this case from Los Millares, though the latter is not truly urban. But if the Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona is issuing confident press releases crediting La Bastida to immigrants, I'm happy to stick my neck out. 
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IALEM
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« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2012, 10:09:37 AM »

Before the 70s both Los Millares and El Argar were credited to inmigrants, and the connections of El Argar to Anatolya were very clear from the start. What is new about La Bastida is the complexity of defensive building techniques, that makes difficult to attribute it to cultural influences instead of a real colonization.

Los Millares on its own is pretty impressive for the period and despite the continuity theory held in recent times I find difficult to believe local populations jumped from caves to building that fortified town, especially when there are people still living in caves in the same area in that period.

All the evolution since Cardial Neolithic in the Mediterraean coas of Spain has the mark of a colonization from the East, with advanced settlements in the middle of a more primitive local population
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« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2012, 10:17:24 AM »

Are the cultures of El Argar, Los Millares...etc seen as distinct from the megalithic cultures or are these extensions of similar cultures?
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A.D.
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« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2012, 11:07:35 AM »

The one I was thinking of is in Coto Doñana National Park in southern Spain. I looked it up and it's got the Atlantis thing attatched to so I guess that puts everyone off from the start, did me.
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Bren123
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« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2012, 01:47:23 PM »

Oh golly! Looks like the Iberes arriving.

Who?
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LDJ
Jean M
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« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2012, 02:06:48 PM »

Oh golly! Looks like the Iberes arriving.

Who?


My first attempt to grapple with the Iberes (which was almost totally wrong) is unhappily preserved for all to see on this forum. (Aaaargh!) Iberes and R-SRY2627 / M167. Let's start there and discuss how wrong I was. :)
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ArmandoR1b
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« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2012, 09:18:55 PM »

Thanks for this link. Very interesting.

Hundreds of graves. DNA?

Regards, Morten

I received a response on an email I sent them. They said that DNA analysis is being done by specialists at the universities of Kiel and Manheim. They had already expected to have difficulty in acquiring results due to the aridity of the area but it has been more difficult than expected. They are now trying new techniques in order to acquire results but they can only hope they will be successful.
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Jean M
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« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2012, 03:50:46 AM »

@ ArmandoR1b

Thank you so much for obtaining this information.
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« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2012, 03:20:04 AM »

Thanks ArmandoR1b, nice initiative.

Did they wrote anything about where we can read the results?

Regards, Morten
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« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2012, 06:40:28 PM »

The city has an extraordinarily complex and advanced fortification system unknown at the time in Western Europe and clearly reminiscent of the Near East. Archaeologists think it is the making of Near East colonists arriving to Murcia (SE Spain) around 2200 BC.
I knew I'd seen that stuff before. Found it.
http://www.art.co.uk/products/p13039258-sa-i2280037/posters.htm
http://www.lebanoneguide.com/touristicarticle.aspx?pageid=351
Byblos. Early Bronze Age, from ca. 2800 BC.
Can't find a sensible source for the date, mind.

As you say, IALEM, reminiscent. In fact downright suspicious .. :)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120927091542.htm
http://www.heritagedaily.com/2012/09/la-bastida-unearths-4200-year-old-fortification-unique-in-continental-europe/

That "in-out" wall style is a bit of a local speciality, but I really don't think any reasonable connection could be made with the earlier Portuguese palisade/stockade-and-ditch sites like Perdigões or Xancra?
http://portugueseenclosures.blogspot.co.uk/
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IALEM
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« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2012, 01:43:59 PM »

BTW there are some anthropological statistics on the population of the city available. Men were on average 160 cms tall, women 150 cms. Life expectancy 40 years, high infant mortality. Dietetic studies still pending.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 01:44:53 PM by IALEM » Logged

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2012, 09:17:42 AM »

BTW there are some anthropological statistics on the population of the city available. Men were on average 160 cms tall, women 150 cms. Life expectancy 40 years, high infant mortality. Dietetic studies still pending.

160 cm = 5 ft 3 ins for us non=metric folk.
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glentane
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« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2012, 01:08:32 PM »

The guys about as tall as my old mum then? Not a bad height for them days.
And it means one might reasonably infer that the funny little horses they had in the stables might have had an extra significance beyond pack-animals, and dragging stuff around (no carts, as far as I know?)
 
Quote
Los establos del poblado contarían, además, con un buen número de cerdos, vacas (posiblemente utilizadas en los trabajos del campo) y caballos.
http://www.regmurcia.com/servlet/s.Sl?sit=c,641,m,2553&r=ReP-13763-DETALLE_REPORTAJESABUELO

If these guys (and gals, I know, but ..) in their younger days were gracile to begin with, and a touch undernourished, then I wouldn't object to a precocious adoption of (stirrup-less) equitation in the Peninsula (in a Western European context, of course). Any sign of bridle-gear or the like? Worn teeth, cheekpieces, the usual?
Plus archery?
That would have been a bit of an eye-opener for the locals!
AFAIK we don't get overt representations of actual horseback riding till the LBA. And Mycenean ones at that.
http://www.archaeological-center.com/images/auction41/41-443g.jpg
http://eca.state.gov/icpp/cypruspc/0000008e.htm

And it may be that the locals, like northern europeans, had to wait until the horses had been bred big enough to carry them, and they were forced to carry on on Shank's Pony, like Ganger-Hrolf. A big disadvantage in conflict, or herding. Or were they of a similar build to these Argaric characters?
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