World Families Forums - Do the celtic gods and their myths reflect the beaker origins of the Celts?

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 16, 2014, 08:48:46 PM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Do the celtic gods and their myths reflect the beaker origins of the Celts?
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Do the celtic gods and their myths reflect the beaker origins of the Celts?  (Read 7543 times)
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2012, 08:09:24 PM »

One thing that I have come to realize on these forums is that Irish posters have a different view of the center of knowledge and culture than other posters. It was hard for me to put my finger on it because I was raised and educated traditionally Irish even though I was born and raised in San Francisco. To an Irish poster, the center of knowledge and culture is Ireland and we look out at the Continent. To other posters, the center of knowledge and culture is Rome and Greece. The average non-Irish poster looks from the Continent into the darkness of Ireland on the fringe of the western world. The only question is when and how the lightness of the Continent arrived in Ireland. I just laughed as I typed that, because I can sense the complete difference in thinking.

Again, perhaps it is a common view of island people, but I know of no Irishman from my family or my neighborhood who looks at History as if the Irish were relieved of the darkness by people from the Continent. We consider that we knew about you before you came our way. And, as Heber points out, genealogy and the oral tradition is at our core. I believe we resent when others attempt to tell us what our History is from the view of outsiders. It's as if someone comes into your home, sees your family tree on the wall and says, "All of that is wrong! Here, let me show you what I have found out about your family from my research."

I think that people may be able to come to understand the Irish point of view, but maybe you have to grow up Irish to truly have that point of view.

That's all a bit too Manichean for me: light versus darkness, and all that.

I just think L21 got to Ireland from the Continent, and it was no longer just L21, it was already DF13. That fact seals the deal pretty much, if you ask me.

It isn't about some attempt to denigrate Ireland or rob the Irish people of their heritage, yadda yadda yadda. It's about common sense and realizing that people got to Ireland somehow and somewhen. They didn't just spring from the sod.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 08:09:59 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2012, 08:29:12 PM »

Anyone besides me remember that old British Robin Hood tv series from the 1980s  that featured "Herne the Hunter"?

Wasn't he supposed to be the Celtic horned god Cernunnos?

Logged

A.D.
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 310


« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2012, 10:22:31 PM »

Carnun and crom cruic are both featured on the gundstrup cauldron. places like Cromlin (Crom's pool) are named after him and some have surgested they were sacrificial pools. Crom cruic the bloody bent one) is a ram headed serpent, he is assosiated with human sacrifice his 'alter' was a mound with a single stone at the top this is where the deed was done. These are gods that are outside the central 12.Others include Anu and sile na gig these are thought to be pre-celtic gods. Crom was hijacked by Robert E howard in his Conan books.
Logged
A.D.
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 310


« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2012, 10:30:31 PM »

Alan
got any ideas how Horses got assosiated with the sea gods. I think it could have been people from the steppe arriving at the Med. JeanM's stalae people?
Logged
eochaidh
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 400


« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2012, 10:35:34 PM »

One thing that I have come to realize on these forums is that Irish posters have a different view of the center of knowledge and culture than other posters. It was hard for me to put my finger on it because I was raised and educated traditionally Irish even though I was born and raised in San Francisco. To an Irish poster, the center of knowledge and culture is Ireland and we look out at the Continent. To other posters, the center of knowledge and culture is Rome and Greece. The average non-Irish poster looks from the Continent into the darkness of Ireland on the fringe of the western world. The only question is when and how the lightness of the Continent arrived in Ireland. I just laughed as I typed that, because I can sense the complete difference in thinking.

Again, perhaps it is a common view of island people, but I know of no Irishman from my family or my neighborhood who looks at History as if the Irish were relieved of the darkness by people from the Continent. We consider that we knew about you before you came our way. And, as Heber points out, genealogy and the oral tradition is at our core. I believe we resent when others attempt to tell us what our History is from the view of outsiders. It's as if someone comes into your home, sees your family tree on the wall and says, "All of that is wrong! Here, let me show you what I have found out about your family from my research."

I think that people may be able to come to understand the Irish point of view, but maybe you have to grow up Irish to truly have that point of view.

That's all a bit too Manichean for me: light versus darkness, and all that.

I just think L21 got to Ireland from the Continent, and it was no longer just L21, it was already DF13. That fact seals the deal pretty much, if you ask me.

It isn't about some attempt to denigrate Ireland or rob the Irish people of their heritage, yadda yadda yadda. It's about common sense and realizing that people got to Ireland somehow and somewhen. They didn't just spring from the sod.

How in God's name did anyone (I remembered not to use personal pronouns!) get anything about L21 or DF13 out of what I posted?! I was clearly talking about the Irish view of their History and the History of Europe as compared to the Continetal/Classical view. I even think that many English people have the view that the Roman Empire saved them from the darkness of their Brittanic past.

I never mentioned anything about any Haplogroup. This thread is about  Celtic mythology and Celtic origins and I was expressing that posters seem to view that from either an Irish view or a Classical view.

Also, I am the only poster I know of who has gone on record saying that L21 and ALL of its Subclades have a Continental origin. I stand by that 100%.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 11:10:46 PM by eochaidh » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2012, 06:16:19 AM »

This thread is about  Celtic mythology and Celtic origins and I was expressing that posters seem to view that from either an Irish view or a Classical view.

There is no such thing as a Classical view of Celtic origins. The Greeks and Romans hadn't got a clue about it. There certainly are Greek and Roman references to the Celts, which many authors tend to start with simply because these are earlier than anything from the Celts actually about themselves. It is a way of pinning them to the map.

Personally I don't approach the Celts in that way. I come into the subject via Bell Beaker. I think that the Classical references can be deceptive. People tend to think that if you want to find the history of a people that we now call X, you just go through all the written sources, looking for references to X. That is a huge mistake. It presupposes that a linguistic group or tribe or whatever will always have the same name. It misunderstands the nature of the evidence.  

This naive approach led Simon James to declare that there was no such thing as a Celt in Britain and Ireland, because he couldn't find an ancient reference to the people of these islands as Celts, or even one in early Irish literature. How potty! They were speaking Celtic languages. So if we are going to follow Caesar and accept that the Gauls were Celts, then so were the Britons and Irish. The Irish don't need to tell us that they are Celts in the Ulster cycle or wherever. That is our name for them.    

So we can see some of the common threads in Celtic religion and lifestyle expressed through the adventures of Cú Chulainn. We will certainly get a different view of the Celts from their own writings than we get through the eyes of their enemies. That's for sure.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 06:42:08 AM by Jean M » Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2012, 08:28:35 AM »

One thing that I have come to realize on these forums is that Irish posters have a different view of the center of knowledge and culture than other posters. It was hard for me to put my finger on it because I was raised and educated traditionally Irish even though I was born and raised in San Francisco. To an Irish poster, the center of knowledge and culture is Ireland and we look out at the Continent. To other posters, the center of knowledge and culture is Rome and Greece. The average non-Irish poster looks from the Continent into the darkness of Ireland on the fringe of the western world. The only question is when and how the lightness of the Continent arrived in Ireland. I just laughed as I typed that, because I can sense the complete difference in thinking.

Again, perhaps it is a common view of island people, but I know of no Irishman from my family or my neighborhood who looks at History as if the Irish were relieved of the darkness by people from the Continent. We consider that we knew about you before you came our way. And, as Heber points out, genealogy and the oral tradition is at our core. I believe we resent when others attempt to tell us what our History is from the view of outsiders. It's as if someone comes into your home, sees your family tree on the wall and says, "All of that is wrong! Here, let me show you what I have found out about your family from my research."

I think that people may be able to come to understand the Irish point of view, but maybe you have to grow up Irish to truly have that point of view.

That's all a bit too Manichean for me: light versus darkness, and all that.

I just think L21 got to Ireland from the Continent, and it was no longer just L21, it was already DF13. That fact seals the deal pretty much, if you ask me.

It isn't about some attempt to denigrate Ireland or rob the Irish people of their heritage, yadda yadda yadda. It's about common sense and realizing that people got to Ireland somehow and somewhen. They didn't just spring from the sod.

How in God's name did anyone (I remembered not to use personal pronouns!) get anything about L21 or DF13 out of what I posted?! I was clearly talking about the Irish view of their History and the History of Europe as compared to the Continetal/Classical view. I even think that many English people have the view that the Roman Empire saved them from the darkness of their Brittanic past.

I never mentioned anything about any Haplogroup. This thread is about  Celtic mythology and Celtic origins and I was expressing that posters seem to view that from either an Irish view or a Classical view.

Also, I am the only poster I know of who has gone on record saying that L21 and ALL of its Subclades have a Continental origin. I stand by that 100%.

It's all too funny: arguing for the Hiberno-centric view of knowledge to defend a book of legends about how the Irish came from somewhere else!

Whether or not you mentioned anything about haplogroups, this subforum is dedicated to one of them. All discussions here are ultimately about R1b and its subclades. If this thread is not ultimately about that, let me know, and I'll move it to General Discussions.

Anyone who has been here for any length of time knows the nature of your statement about being on record that "L21 and ALL of its Subclades have a Continental origin". Enough said about that.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 08:29:51 AM by rms2 » Logged

Heber
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2012, 09:32:15 AM »

Here are a number of areas worth exploring:

1) Religious infrastructure: Megalithic monuments, Newgrange, Knowth, Stonehenge, Morbihan, Carnac, Tagus, Scara Brae, Galacia, Evora, Gobelki Tepe, Bell Beaker aDNA found in a Megalithic context
2) Druid strongholds: Mona, Anglesea, Erne, Carnutes, Caesar understood the power of the Druids in Celtic society and proceeded to eliminate them
3) Bull worship, Anatolia, Catahayuk, Balkens, Mycean, Minoan, Cyprus, Iberian, Halstatt, Gaelic, Tain Bo Culaigh
4) Origin Myths, Book of Invasions, Iberia, Galecia, Scythia, Troy, Deluge myths
5) Deposition sites: Thames, Shannon, Erne, Swords, Sacred Rivers, Bog Bodies
6) Brewing, Halstatt, Hochdorf, RHyfelwyr, Atlantic wine trade, Mead, Bell Beaker drinking vessels



Interesting to explore the Megalithic Tombs and continuity to Bell Beaker.
Bell Beaker artefacts and DNA found in Megalithic sites.

Sacred Places
Eastern Tomb at Knowth in the Boyne Valley
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763850469/
The Mound of the Great Passage of Knowth
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763850466/
The interior of the Passage Grave of Newgrange
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763850472/
Distribution of Passage Graves in Ireland and Wales
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763850827/
The Ring of Brogdar on Orkeney
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763850435/
The Great Mound of Navan
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763847246/
Stonehenge
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763851044/

The Amesbury Archer and BosCombe Bowman and Stonehenge
http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/blogs/news/2008/09/26/amesbury-archer-pilgrim-or-magician


Gundestrup Cauldron
Celtic God Tarantis
Celtic God Daghda
Celtic God Teutates
Celtic God Mebh
Celtic God Cerunnos
Celtic God Master of Dragons
Taming or Slaying of the Unicorns
Boy riding a Fish
Celtic God Master of Stags

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/28433765@N07/tags/gundestrupcauldron/









« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 10:41:47 AM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



eochaidh
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 400


« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2012, 10:32:15 AM »

This thread is about  Celtic mythology and Celtic origins and I was expressing that posters seem to view that from either an Irish view or a Classical view.

There is no such thing as a Classical view of Celtic origins. The Greeks and Romans hadn't got a clue about it. There certainly are Greek and Roman references to the Celts, which many authors tend to start with simply because these are earlier than anything from the Celts actually about themselves. It is a way of pinning them to the map.

Personally I don't approach the Celts in that way. I come into the subject via Bell Beaker. I think that the Classical references can be deceptive. People tend to think that if you want to find the history of a people that we now call X, you just go through all the written sources, looking for references to X. That is a huge mistake. It presupposes that a linguistic group or tribe or whatever will always have the same name. It misunderstands the nature of the evidence.  

This naive approach led Simon James to declare that there was no such thing as a Celt in Britain and Ireland, because he couldn't find an ancient reference to the people of these islands as Celts, or even one in early Irish literature. How potty! They were speaking Celtic languages. So if we are going to follow Caesar and accept that the Gauls were Celts, then so were the Britons and Irish. The Irish don't need to tell us that they are Celts in the Ulster cycle or wherever. That is our name for them.    

So we can see some of the common threads in Celtic religion and lifestyle expressed through the adventures of Cú Chulainn. We will certainly get a different view of the Celts from their own writings than we get through the eyes of their enemies. That's for sure.

Some posters may not be familiar with the old theories of Celts from the Continent and newer theories of Celts from the west. I thought everyone was.

The old view represents the old Classical way of thinking, because it largely depends on what Classical writers said about the Celts and there locations. There is also a Classical view that the Roman Empire civilized the Celtic world.

I'm very surprised that such well read people are completely unfamiliar with this, or that they have problems reading simple English.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 11:56:15 AM by eochaidh » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2012, 11:58:42 AM »

I'm with you now Miles. I partly agree. I have to point out that Cunliffe and Koch's "Celtic from the West" theory actually is just as much "from the Continent" as the older idea of Celts moving into Iberia and the Isles in the Iron Age from Gaul. They are not saying that the Celts originated in the Isles. They also depend heavily on Classical sources, which include references to Celts in Iberia.

But certainly the discovery in the 19th century of  material at La Tene which could be linked to references to the Celts had a huge impact on the way the Celts were viewed.    



« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 01:14:52 PM by Jean M » Logged
Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #60 on: September 30, 2012, 12:17:59 PM »

There is also a Classical view that the Roman Empire civilized the Celtic world.

I shouldn't let that perturb you. The definition of civilization is a politically and technologically complex society with central organisation and literacy. We don't have to see that as superior if we don't want to. We don't have to see modern society as superior. What value we place on these things is up to us.

Ireland was of course outside the Empire and just decided at some point that literacy might come in useful.
Logged
stoneman
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 141


« Reply #61 on: September 30, 2012, 01:13:06 PM »

I think that DF13 originated in the Isles. Majority rules. Why would a genetic defect be more prolific in a place that isnt the origin.
Logged
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #62 on: September 30, 2012, 01:20:29 PM »

Here are a number of areas worth exploring:

1) Religious infrastructure: Megalithic monuments, Newgrange, Knowth, Stonehenge, Morbihan, Carnac, Tagus, Scara Brae, Galacia, Evora, Gobelki Tepe, Bell Beaker aDNA found in a Megalithic context
2) Druid strongholds: Mona, Anglesea, Erne, Carnutes, Caesar understood the power of the Druids in Celtic society and proceeded to eliminate them
3) Bull worship, Anatolia, Catahayuk, Balkens, Mycean, Minoan, Cyprus, Iberian, Halstatt, Gaelic, Tain Bo Culaigh
4) Origin Myths, Book of Invasions, Iberia, Galecia, Scythia, Troy, Deluge myths
5) Deposition sites: Thames, Shannon, Erne, Swords, Sacred Rivers, Bog Bodies
6) Brewing, Halstatt, Hochdorf, RHyfelwyr, Atlantic wine trade, Mead, Bell Beaker drinking vessels



Interesting to explore the Megalithic Tombs and continuity to Bell Beaker.
Bell Beaker artefacts and DNA found in Megalithic sites.

Sacred Places
Eastern Tomb at Knowth in the Boyne Valley
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763850469/
The Mound of the Great Passage of Knowth
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763850466/
The interior of the Passage Grave of Newgrange
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763850472/
Distribution of Passage Graves in Ireland and Wales
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763850827/
The Ring of Brogdar on Orkeney
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763850435/
The Great Mound of Navan
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763847246/
Stonehenge
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763851044/

The Amesbury Archer and BosCombe Bowman and Stonehenge
http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/blogs/news/2008/09/26/amesbury-archer-pilgrim-or-magician


Gundestrup Cauldron
Celtic God Tarantis
Celtic God Daghda
Celtic God Teutates
Celtic God Mebh
Celtic God Cerunnos
Celtic God Master of Dragons
Taming or Slaying of the Unicorns
Boy riding a Fish
Celtic God Master of Stags

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/28433765@N07/tags/gundestrupcauldron/











I couldnt recommend enough a book called ''The Sacred Isle: Belief and Religion in pre-Christian Ireland' by Daithi O 'hOgain (1999).  Its a simply incredible experience of deeper understanding of the subject.  Nothing else comes close.  Anyone interested in Irish mythology from the perspective of Celtic religion and even how some of it links (convincingly) in to some of the monuments like Newgrange simply must read it.  You can get  soft cover versions of it on Amazon 2nd hand.    
Logged
Jdean
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 678


« Reply #63 on: September 30, 2012, 01:31:06 PM »

I think that DF13 originated in the Isles. Majority rules. Why would a genetic defect be more prolific in a place that isnt the origin.

I'll bet you a pound to a penny that most people who have tested positive for it are actually Americans and I'm reasonable sure it didn't originate there ;)
Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #64 on: September 30, 2012, 01:52:24 PM »

This thread is about  Celtic mythology and Celtic origins and I was expressing that posters seem to view that from either an Irish view or a Classical view.

There is no such thing as a Classical view of Celtic origins. The Greeks and Romans hadn't got a clue about it. There certainly are Greek and Roman references to the Celts, which many authors tend to start with simply because these are earlier than anything from the Celts actually about themselves. It is a way of pinning them to the map.

Personally I don't approach the Celts in that way. I come into the subject via Bell Beaker. I think that the Classical references can be deceptive. People tend to think that if you want to find the history of a people that we now call X, you just go through all the written sources, looking for references to X. That is a huge mistake. It presupposes that a linguistic group or tribe or whatever will always have the same name. It misunderstands the nature of the evidence.  

This naive approach led Simon James to declare that there was no such thing as a Celt in Britain and Ireland, because he couldn't find an ancient reference to the people of these islands as Celts, or even one in early Irish literature. How potty! They were speaking Celtic languages. So if we are going to follow Caesar and accept that the Gauls were Celts, then so were the Britons and Irish. The Irish don't need to tell us that they are Celts in the Ulster cycle or wherever. That is our name for them.    

So we can see some of the common threads in Celtic religion and lifestyle expressed through the adventures of Cú Chulainn. We will certainly get a different view of the Celts from their own writings than we get through the eyes of their enemies. That's for sure.

Some posters may not be familiar with the old theories of Celts from the Continent and newer theories of Celts from the west. I thought everyone was.

The old view represents the old Classical way of thinking, because it largely depends on what Classical writers said about the Celts and there locations. There is also a Classical view that the Roman Empire civilized the Celtic world.

I'm very surprised that such well read people are completely unfamiliar with this, or that they have problems reading simple English.


One thing I dont like is the way the old view of the Celts and the Celts from the West models are made as oppositional as possible with central Europe on the one hand and Iberia on the other as if nothing lay in between.  When the Romans arrived the main block of Celts on the continent who were unmixed with other peoples lay in the Gaul which if you subtract Aquitania, Belgica and the Med coast basically consisted of much of France.  The idea that the Celts originated east of France in south Germany and west-central Europe was down to Hubert who based this on slightly bonkers river name evidence.  The classical authors didnt say in any clear way that the Celts originated to the east.  In fact all the evidence is that the spread was into the east and driven by an outpouring from france and adjacent.  The placename evidence is actually not very good for Celts east of Gaul other than in a thin strip heading sort of along the Danube towards SE Europe and into Italy (and the sources for that seem to indicate this had only relatively recently happened).  However, I wouldnt rule out Celtic having enclaves and patches in the east controlling trade, much as the beakers did.  

However, dismissing the old Celtic origin east of Gaul does not mean we then have to go to the opposite extreme westwards.  There is a lot of land in between and much of it was France which, weirdly for a place where the main block of Celts lived, is seldom looked at as the origin point.  In fact I think the idea of an origin point is part of the problem.  The Celtic language probably originated in a large zone of interaction among early IE or Celto-Italic speakers and formed a dialect rather than happening at one point with it being imposed on everyone.  That arrows on maps comming from a 'core' approach is another bad inheritance from the 19th and early 20th century colonial approach to history which tended to back-project the ideas of that time 2 or 3000 years onto the Celts.  

IMO the beaker network (which lasted c. 7 or 800 years in some areas) is the pretty well the only option to explain the IE-isation and subsequent Celticisation of Europe.  No later explanation really works.  That is something Hubert did get right and later revived by Myles Dillon in the 1960s and then sort of submerged again for a while.  Not only is the beaker explanation good in the sense that it was known in all future Celtic areas but the 700 year plus duration of the beaker culture and its subdivision into groupings provides plenty of time for evolution from some form of west IE or Celto-Italic into Celtic in part of the beaker domain.  If you go forward in time to the end of the beaker period I think the split of Celtic and Italic looks plausible as the west Med. zone formed its own tighter network while in the NW of Europe beaker-descended elites like Wessex, Armorican and Unetice (as well as related groups in Ireland, France, belgium etc) remained in contact.  

The recent discovery of a potentially non-IE wedge overlaying the beaker network in SE Spain also provides another element that would have helped split Celtic and Italic.  Indeed there seem to have been a whole lot of east Med. derived groups arriving in the Bronze Age what had once been part of the south beaker lands and putting a bit of a wedge in between the former Atlantic and the Med.  parts of the beaker network.  One of the articles in e-keltoi on Iberia notes this re-orientation of Med. (and perhaps even parts of south Atlantic) Iberia in the late beaker period and after into the west Med. zone that stretch as far as Italy.  I am suspicious this is the origin of the not-quite-Celtic or slightly Italic looking languages such as Ligurian and Lusitanian.  Basically it looks like their dialects development was influenced by their being drawn into the fringes of the Italic world.      
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 01:53:39 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Heber
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #65 on: September 30, 2012, 05:35:22 PM »

Another aspect of Celtic religion worth looking at is inhumation versus cremation.
Dienekes has an interesting theory on the subject linking cremation to Bronze Age mobility.

http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/09/the-rise-and-wane-of-cremation-ritual.html

"I don't know whether this hypothesis has been advanced before, but it seems to me that the most practical reason for the cremation burial is to facilitate transportation of remains."

"The revolution of the Metal Age was the rise of mobility. This was facilitated by advanced in transportation technology associated with wheeled vehicles, and was driven by the trade in metal objects and other specialized, high-value items. The segment of the population involved in this business formed the elite, because of their access to weaponry and wealth, and these elites were intrinsically mobile for the reasons enumerated above. They, like other Neolithic peoples, had inherited a "love of home" and were territorial, but their way of life demanded that they live and fight away from "home"."
Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2012, 07:59:43 PM »

The crux at what I was getting at in this thread is how the Celtic pantheon and the myths and functions attached to them differ from standard IE.  It seems to me that Celtic religion and gods do differ from many IE ones and often do not have the simple cognates.  I think there is a different and rather more developed tone in the material that survives.  I have read before that there is in general a contrast in IE myths and dieties as one moves east to west with the western half including more female aspects and being less patriarchal.  The Celts also had a large religous and learned class with specialists in those fields.  In general it seems more developed.  I also think there are a lot of dieties and myths that point towards the importance of crafts and to travel and the sea.  In general it seems to have a clear tone that sets it apart.  I also get the impression that it is a little closer to the Italic scheme than others.  Even the concept of the afterlife seems rather distinctive with its ideas of a pleasant land beyond the western waves.  Very different from some IE religions.  It is possible that this is down to pre-IE influences but it is also possible that it is a relic of the sort of roots that the Celts had being in the rather distinctive mobile, trading orientated society that can be seen earliest in the beaker period. 
Logged
stoneman
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 141


« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2012, 03:50:11 AM »

They are Americans who give  the Isles as their origin and the SNPs they have are more than 400 ybp. Most of them believe they are descended from the Celts and they are 100% correct.




I think that DF13 originated in the Isles. Majority rules. Why would a genetic defect be more prolific in a place that isnt the origin.

I'll bet you a pound to a penny that most people who have tested positive for it are actually Americans and I'm reasonable sure it didn't originate there ;)
Logged
Heber
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2012, 06:13:40 AM »

The crux at what I was getting at in this thread is how the Celtic pantheon and the myths and functions attached to them differ from standard IE.  It seems to me that Celtic religion and gods do differ from many IE ones and often do not have the simple cognates.  I think there is a different and rather more developed tone in the material that survives.  I have read before that there is in general a contrast in IE myths and dieties as one moves east to west with the western half including more female aspects and being less patriarchal.  The Celts also had a large religous and learned class with specialists in those fields.  In general it seems more developed.  I also think there are a lot of dieties and myths that point towards the importance of crafts and to travel and the sea.  In general it seems to have a clear tone that sets it apart.  I also get the impression that it is a little closer to the Italic scheme than others.  Even the concept of the afterlife seems rather distinctive with its ideas of a pleasant land beyond the western waves.  Very different from some IE religions.  It is possible that this is down to pre-IE influences but it is also possible that it is a relic of the sort of roots that the Celts had being in the rather distinctive mobile, trading orientated society that can be seen earliest in the beaker period.

Alan,

A few comments which I think are relevant.

1) The importance of fertility gods, rites and symbols. This is to be expected in a people with a large demographic explosion.
2) The importance of the bull in Celtic mythology. This is also related to fertility as wealth was counted in cattle. It is reflected in the epic Tain Bo Cuailnge. The first chapter of the Tain is spent with Meabh the Queen of Connaught counting her wealth in cattle.
3) The importance of female goddesses Mebh, and her consorts. The Brehon Laws which governed Gaelic Ireland gave extensive rights to women in marriage and public life.
4) The importance and central role of the Druids and Bards in Celtic society. Genealogy was a core part of their culture. They spent many years memorising the genealogy of their ancestors.  For example a bard or filidh studied from 7-12 years and was expected to know 350 stories (Cunliffe, The Druids).

I have collected some examples here. Warning, not suitable for minors..

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-religion-and-mythology/
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 04:34:12 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



stoneman
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 141


« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2012, 10:09:51 AM »

Alan
Do you think that the Celts have been around for 5000 years instead of 3000?
We are lucky here in Ireland that we have the Annals .
Logged
razyn
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 405


« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2012, 01:50:13 PM »

I have collected some examples here. Warning, not suitable for minors..

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-religion-and-mythology/

I noticed that one of your illustrated goddesses was Sequana.  Wondered if you saw the photo of a nice Roman-era bronze of her that I posted on another thread here:

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10552.msg129934#msg129934
Logged

R1b Z196*
Heber
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2012, 03:06:06 PM »

I have collected some examples here. Warning, not suitable for minors..

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-religion-and-mythology/

I noticed that one of your illustrated goddesses was Sequana.  Wondered if you saw the photo of a nice Roman-era bronze of her that I posted on another thread here:

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10552.msg129934#msg129934

She is beautiful, on her duck boat. Thanks for posting. What does the duck signify?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 04:33:33 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Richard Rocca
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 523


« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2012, 05:05:56 PM »

I have collected some examples here. Warning, not suitable for minors..

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-religion-and-mythology/

I noticed that one of your illustrated goddesses was Sequana.  Wondered if you saw the photo of a nice Roman-era bronze of her that I posted on another thread here:

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10552.msg129934#msg129934

She is beautiful, on her duck boat. Thanks for posting. What does the duck signify?

From what I recall, some Celtic gods could take on the form of a swan and the swan was also used as a chariot for the sun god. The swan starts to appear heavily on artifacts of the Urnfield and Hallstatt periods.
Logged

Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
inver2b1
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99


« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2012, 05:26:28 PM »

They also play a role inThe Children of Lir story.
Logged

I-L126
H3
OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 675


« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2012, 09:29:58 AM »

forgive my ignorance...do people actually know about bell beaker beliefs; if, how, and who they worshipped??

..or is this simply guess work?
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.145 seconds with 19 queries.