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rms2
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« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2012, 11:30:54 AM »

Heber

If you are hinting at Ireland as the matrix of L21 in Europe (and don't get me wrong, I think Ireland is great), please recall that thus far, after a lot of testing, Ireland is proving itself 100% DF13+. It's looking like the L21 that arrived in Ireland had already moved on to the DF13+ stage.

There is also little P312 (xL21) in Ireland, and I'm guessing what is there probably came in with the English and other outsiders.
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« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2012, 11:43:53 AM »

Heber

If you are hinting at Ireland as the matrix of L21 in Europe (and don't get me wrong, I think Ireland is great), please recall that thus far, after a lot of testing, Ireland is proving itself 100% DF13+. It's looking like the L21 that arrived in Ireland had already moved on to the DF13+ stage.

There is also little P312 (xL21) in Ireland, and I'm guessing what is there probably came in with the English and other outsiders.

Rich,
I see L21 as Atlantic Celtic and DF13 as Gaelic Ireland and Scotland.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 11:44:17 AM by Heber » Logged

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Heber
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« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2012, 11:59:25 AM »

Heber - No insult was intended to Irish monks! The whole problem of the Lebor Gabála Érenn is that its author was deeply familiar with the Bible and early Christian writers in Latin. Within the Church, scholarship was bound up with literacy. Churchmen looking for the history of a people tried to find answers in books. But of course Europe was illiterate until writing briefly reached a few places in the Mediterranean c. 2100 BC, only to vanish once more in the long Greek Dark Ages. Light dawns once more with Homer and stays on pretty continuously through the Greek and Roman Empires. This is long, long, long after the Bell Beaker people reached the British Isles. No amount of learned burrowing around in the Classics could tell any Irish monk how the Celts arrived in Ireland, because the Classical Greeks and Romans had not the faintest idea.

The instinct then of a Christian scholar of any nation would be to search the Bible, which seems to explain the origins of all mankind back to Noah. Later authors expanded on the tale from Genesis to give an ancestry of specific European peoples back to Japheth.  If we take Japheth to represent the Indo-Europeans, this is not bad thinking for the time. But we don't need to take it literally today.  

The Lebor Gabála Érenn falls into a category of medieval work that we can find examples of throughout Europe. It is no better and no worse. It is typical. I have been far ruder about Geoffrey of Monmouth, I assure you.

Jean,
No offence taken, although you do understand I have to defend my illustrious ancestors who are no longer here to defend themselves.
No one that I know takes the Book of Invasions literally. We place it in its time and context.
As you are writing about this subject and have a strong opinion on Gaelic Genealogies, I am sure you have read Leabhar an nGenealagh, which is the definitive work on the subject.
Of course MacFirbhisigh includes extracts from the Book of Invasions in his monumental volume with the usual cautionary notes.
I would be interested which sections you consider "cobbled" and which are acceptable to you.
My personal opinion is the genealogies post 500AD are on reasonably solid grounds, those from 0-500 give fascinating insights into Gaelic culture and should probably be mined for useful information. Those in the BC era are lost in the Celtic Mist and should only be approached by those brave soles with a tolerant and open mind willing to search for clues.
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rms2
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« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2012, 12:02:53 PM »

Heber

If you are hinting at Ireland as the matrix of L21 in Europe (and don't get me wrong, I think Ireland is great), please recall that thus far, after a lot of testing, Ireland is proving itself 100% DF13+. It's looking like the L21 that arrived in Ireland had already moved on to the DF13+ stage.

There is also little P312 (xL21) in Ireland, and I'm guessing what is there probably came in with the English and other outsiders.

Rich,
I see L21 as Atlantic Celtic and DF13 as Gaelic Ireland and Scotland.

I see both as originally from the Continent and brought into the Isles by the Beaker Folk. For one thing, there isn't much L21 that isn't DF13+.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2012, 01:42:51 PM »

One thing that I have come to realize on these forums is that Irish posters have a different view of the center of knowledge and culture than other posters. It was hard for me to put my finger on it because I was raised and educated traditionally Irish even though I was born and raised in San Francisco. To an Irish poster, the center of knowledge and culture is Ireland and we look out at the Continent. To other posters, the center of knowledge and culture is Rome and Greece. The average non-Irish poster looks from the Continent into the darkness of Ireland on the fringe of the western world. The only question is when and how the lightness of the Continent arrived in Ireland. I just laughed as I typed that, because I can sense the complete difference in thinking.

Again, perhaps it is a common view of island people, but I know of no Irishman from my family or my neighborhood who looks at History as if the Irish were relieved of the darkness by people from the Continent. We consider that we knew about you before you came our way. And, as Heber points out, genealogy and the oral tradition is at our core. I believe we resent when others attempt to tell us what our History is from the view of outsiders. It's as if someone comes into your home, sees your family tree on the wall and says, "All of that is wrong! Here, let me show you what I have found out about your family from my research."

I think that people may be able to come to understand the Irish point of view, but maybe you have to grow up Irish to truly have that point of view.
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« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2012, 01:57:24 PM »

One may understand another's point of view without necessarily thinking that other is correct, or for that matter, sane.  We get a lot of strong viewpoints here, most of which are mutually contradictory at some level.
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« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2012, 01:59:52 PM »

Irish people also like to have an Irishcentric view of things, doesn't make it right though. When trying to find out what happened in the past no country is owed anything.
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« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2012, 02:17:22 PM »

To an Irish poster, the center of knowledge and culture is Ireland and we look out at the Continent. To other posters, the center of knowledge and culture is Rome and Greece.

Miles, I have just pointed out that the Romans and Greeks hadn't got a clue how the Celts got to Ireland. I have just about worn myself to a frazzle pointing out on other occasions that  the Romans and Greeks hadn't got a clue how the Celts got to Britain. It is a complete and utter waste of time trying to tease out of Caesar and Tacitus information that they didn't have. Tacitus was honest about it.

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Who were the original inhabitants of Britain, whether they were indigenous or foreign, is as usual among barbarians, little known.

The Britons couldn't tell him because they didn't know either. It was all too long ago.

In fact the Greeks did not know how they got to Greece, and the Romans were no better informed about their origins and made up a tale about Romulus and Remus (and claimed Trojan origins.)  It was all too far back in prehistory for even a glimmer of a hint of the truth to appear in legend.

That is why we have archaeology. And now we have genetics.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 02:30:42 PM by Jean M » Logged
stoneman
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« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2012, 02:32:45 PM »

Is there a 67 marker modal for DF13?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2012, 03:19:38 PM »

Just to clarrify, I dont mean book of invasions etc.  All the experts have concluded this a Medieval creation.  What I mean is the mythological cycle and the nature of the gods.  The nature of the gods and their charachteristics i.e. the Celtic religion is what I am getting at.  The pantheon of the gods etc indirectly may be telling us something of the roots of Celticity.  I mean pan-Celtic stuff although it is best preserved in Ireland and to a lesser degree Wales.  I am not in any way wanting to revive discussion about mythology and Irish prehistory/invasions etc.  I mean something deeper than that about Celtic roots as a whole. The gods in Irish mythology are the Tuatha de Dannan etc.  Yes they have been portrayed as history in the myths but they clearly represent the otherworld and remnants of the Celtic religion.  There is a massive distinction between this and the pseudo history.  I think Dubthach and others will understand what I am getting at.  I am talking about what the dieties and their mythology tell us about the roots of Celtic culture.  There is an emphasis on crafts, magic jouneys etc in Celtic mythology that I think reveals the sort of socieity that was the roots of very early Celtic society. 
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Heber
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« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2012, 03:20:35 PM »

To an Irish poster, the center of knowledge and culture is Ireland and we look out at the Continent. To other posters, the center of knowledge and culture is Rome and Greece.

Miles, I have just pointed out that the Romans and Greeks hadn't got a clue how the Celts got to Ireland. I have just about worn myself to a frazzle pointing out on other occasions that  the Romans and Greeks hadn't got a clue how the Celts got to Britain. It is a complete and utter waste of time trying to tease out of Caesar and Tacitus information that they didn't have. Tacitus was honest about it.

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Who were the original inhabitants of Britain, whether they were indigenous or foreign, is as usual among barbarians, little known.

The Britons couldn't tell him because they didn't know either. It was all too long ago.

In fact the Greeks did not know how they got to Greece, and the Romans were no better informed about their origins and made up a tale about Romulus and Remus (and claimed Trojan origins.)  It was all too far back in prehistory for even a glimmer of a hint of the truth to appear in legend.

That is why we have archaeology. And now we have genetics.


Jean,

Thanks for that link to Tacitus. I found it very interesting.
I noted he had only one line of relevance to the subject.
Most of the Meditteranean commentatators never set foot in Ireland and as you rightly pointed out had little of no knowledge of how the Celts got to the Isles.
That is why I put more faith in the Celtic Monastic Movement.
This was an extensive network of monasteries, all across Ireland and all across Europe but heavily concentrated in the Holy Roman Empire. Some of the monasteries numered over 3000 monks and twice as many lay people, students, teachers and farmers.
They controlled 30% of the land and brought innovations in farming, market gardening, bee keeping, brewing and of course manuscripts. They were the Information Industry of the dark ages.
The monks were Celtic people. They lived with the people and shared their culture and customs including genealogy. They set down the oral tradition and stories to vellum and preserved them for future generation. I am sure that many of the Druids and Bards of the old Pagan Ireland just blended into the church as they adopted the same sacred places and festivals.
The Corpus of Gaelic Genealogy and Law and Traditions is enormous and spread across several libraries.
We all know that it poses a challange but it should not be dismissed because it is a difficult task.
It will be interesting to see if and how the Gaelic Genealogies match up with the Phylogentic Tree.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 03:46:22 PM by Heber » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2012, 03:27:21 PM »

Boy has the point of this thread been misunderstood.  I mean Celtic religion and gods. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2012, 04:43:30 PM »

Thread title changed
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Jean M
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« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2012, 04:47:28 PM »

That is why I put more faith in the Celtic Monastic Movement.

Heber - they didn't know either. That's why they were trying to get something out of the Bible and early Christian authors. That's not just my conclusion. It's the conclusion of modern Irish historians who have studied the text in far more detail than I have.

They didn't have a history of Ireland back to the arrival of the Celts. No such thing existed, any more than the Greeks had a history of Greece back to the time of the arrival of the Greeks, etc, etc. It is not that the Irish were  any worse off in this respect than any other European nation. Trying to work out when the Greeks arrived in Greece has been one big puzzle and there is no consensus to this day. Believe me the Greeks had plenty of monks in the medieval period. So did pretty well every European nation. It wasn't a help with this issue. You can't conjure up history out of prehistory. It doesn't matter how well you know your Bible. It doesn't matter how 100% Irish or Greek or whatever you are. Nothing helps to find knowledge that does not exist without a totally new way of looking for it i.e. archaeology or genetics.  

What the Irish do have is a fascinating literature and law codes that can tell us a lot about pre-Christian, Celtic Ireland and potentially therefore about Celts elsewhere who were submerged by the Romans before they could commit anything like that to writing. The Irish have an important heritage. It just doesn't lie in the Book of Invasions. You have early Irish poetry. There is nothing like that for Gaul.      
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 04:56:49 PM by Jean M » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2012, 05:07:18 PM »

It also seems to me that the Welsh/post-Roman Britons didnt have any idea of their origins judging from the cobbled classical nonsense about Brutus etc in Nennius.  The main links of the British in prehistory can in the main be placed from the Loire to the Rhine (as can Ireland's) but they go for a Greek origin.  This Irish go for an Iberian one.  As far as I understand both the Brutus nonsense and the first version of the Book of Invasions scheme appear in Nennius.  

People overestimate oral tradition.  Another thing that I find interesting is that a scholarly classical influenced scheme like the Book of Invasions did later become oral traditions.  So people need to be warned about seeing writting down of myths as the tail end of oral tradition.  Sometimes scholarly latinate stuff can become oral tradition.  

ANYWAY this is all off topic.  This thread was about the Celtic gods pantheon and its interesting characteristics which are fairly peculiar to the Celts in many ways.   I am hoping Dubthach can chip in.  He is very well read on Irish literature.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 05:11:11 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2012, 05:18:45 PM »

I think people overestimate pots found in the ground. Well, it's not the pot itself that is overestimated, but the story given to it by the archaeologist that is overestimated.

Gods and myths are from oral tradition, not from pots in the ground.

As far as gods and myths go, I am interested in the horse goddesses, such as Epona (Continental) and Macha (Irish). Perhaps my interest comes from the fact that my own name Kehoe/MacEochadha derives from the Irish word for horse. There were great horse cults/tribes in Ireland and Scotland. Who brought the horse to Ireland?

My guess would be that a maritime culture brought the horse to Ireland. I know that maritime seems obvious, but, again, it appears that many people look to grounded Continental cultures first before considering maritime cultures when it comes to migrations to The Isles.
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« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2012, 05:49:46 PM »

People overestimate oral tradition.

Depends on the people; some of you guys overestimate other stuff.  Calibrate the Geiger counter wrong, forget to divide by two, that sort of thing.  Remember when the Hubble telescope reached orbit with astigmatism, because technicians at the best optical facility in the US had installed some gauge upside down when its mirror was being ground?  Hard science is great, but we're all in this together.  And there are things archaeologists could learn from folklore, linguistics, genetics -- lots of other disciplines.
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« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2012, 06:29:46 PM »

I think people overestimate pots found in the ground. Well, it's not the pot itself that is overestimated, but the story given to it by the archaeologist that is overestimated.

Gods and myths are from oral tradition, not from pots in the ground.

As far as gods and myths go, I am interested in the horse goddesses, such as Epona (Continental) and Macha (Irish). Perhaps my interest comes from the fact that my own name Kehoe/MacEochadha derives from the Irish word for horse. There were great horse cults/tribes in Ireland and Scotland. Who brought the horse to Ireland?

My guess would be that a maritime culture brought the horse to Ireland. I know that maritime seems obvious, but, again, it appears that many people look to grounded Continental cultures first before considering maritime cultures when it comes to migrations to The Isles.

As an island its basically a certainty that everything that arrived in Ireland came (at least in its final step) from a coastal/maritime group or at least a group with a very good access to the sea.  Noone landlocked is in a position to do that - no sea, no maritime skills, no knowledge of the destination through prior contact.  I dont think anyone literally thinks a landlocked group could have much contact with Ireland. However, a lot of cultures had both landlocked and coastal areas within their distributions. 

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eochaidh
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« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2012, 07:02:06 PM »

I think people overestimate pots found in the ground. Well, it's not the pot itself that is overestimated, but the story given to it by the archaeologist that is overestimated.

Gods and myths are from oral tradition, not from pots in the ground.

As far as gods and myths go, I am interested in the horse goddesses, such as Epona (Continental) and Macha (Irish). Perhaps my interest comes from the fact that my own name Kehoe/MacEochadha derives from the Irish word for horse. There were great horse cults/tribes in Ireland and Scotland. Who brought the horse to Ireland?

My guess would be that a maritime culture brought the horse to Ireland. I know that maritime seems obvious, but, again, it appears that many people look to grounded Continental cultures first before considering maritime cultures when it comes to migrations to The Isles.

As an island its basically a certainty that everything that arrived in Ireland came (at least in its final step) from a coastal/maritime group or at least a group with a very good access to the sea.  Noone landlocked is in a position to do that - no sea, no maritime skills, no knowledge of the destination through prior contact.  I dont think anyone literally thinks a landlocked group could have much contact with Ireland. However, a lot of cultures had both landlocked and coastal areas within their distributions. 



So, what does archaeology show about the Atlantic Maritime cultures and horses? What part did the horse play in the Atlantic Beaker Culture? Eochaidh (Horseman) is one of the most popular names in Irish myth, so the importance of the horse is without doubt.

And, who brought the horse to the Atlantic Cultures? Have there been studies on horse DNA?
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« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2012, 07:10:32 PM »

It also seems to me that the Welsh/post-Roman Britons didnt have any idea of their origins judging from the cobbled classical nonsense about Brutus etc in Nennius. 

Precisely. And Geoffrey of Monmouth was writing fiction frankly.
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« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2012, 07:34:09 PM »

And, who brought the horse to the Atlantic Cultures? Have there been studies on horse DNA?

Plenty. 


Mitochondrial DNA sequence diversity in extant Irish horse populations and in ancient horses.
(2006)

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Equine mitochondrial DNA sequence variation was investigated in three indigenous Irish horse populations (Irish Draught Horse, Kerry Bog Pony and Connemara Pony) and, for context, in 69 other horse populations. There was no evidence of Irish Draught Horse or Connemara Pony sequence clustering, although the majority of Irish Draught Horse sequences (47%) were assigned to haplogroup D. Conversely, 31% of the Kerry Bog Pony sequences were assigned to the rare haplogroup E. In addition to the extant population analyses, ancient DNA sequences were generated from three out of four Irish archaeological specimens, all of which were assigned to haplogroup A.
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« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2012, 07:37:44 PM »

Ancient DNA reveals traces of Iberian Neolithic and Bronze Age lineages in modern Iberian horses (2010)

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Multiple geographical regions have been proposed for the domestication of Equus caballus. It has been suggested, based on zooarchaeological and genetic analyses that wild horses from the Iberian Peninsula were involved in the process, and the overrepresentation of mitochondrial D1 cluster in modern Iberian horses supports this suggestion. To test this hypothesis, we analysed mitochondrial DNA from 22 ancient Iberian horse remains belonging to the Neolithic, the Bronze Age and the Middle Ages, against previously published sequences. Only the medieval Iberian sequence appeared in the D1 group. Neolithic and Bronze Age sequences grouped in other clusters, one of which (Lusitano group C) is exclusively represented by modern horses of Iberian origin. Moreover, Bronze Age Iberian sequences displayed the lowest nucleotide diversity values when compared with modern horses, ancient wild horses and other ancient domesticates using nonparametric bootstrapping analyses. We conclude that the excessive clustering of Bronze Age horses in the Lusitano group C, the observed nucleotide diversity and the local continuity from wild Neolithic Iberian to modern Iberian horses, could be explained by the use of local wild mares during an early Iberian domestication or restocking event, whereas the D1 group probably was introduced into Iberia in later historical times
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« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2012, 07:39:17 PM »

Prime example of a pan-celtic god of course is Lugh (Lú -- would reflect modern Irish pronunciation). In old Irish the name was written as Lug, he is of course a reflex of the pan-celtic Lugus. Whose name is reflected in placenames on the continent such as Lyon -- *Lugudūnon (Fort of Lugus) which if you were to create a version in modern Irish would be Dúnlugh / Dúnlú (Dún = stone fort). As well as in Spain and other places as far as apart as Netherlands and Austria.

Anyways I would say we have to be a bit careful relying on Irish mythology for glimpse into Celtic "paganism" as the stories were in the end written down by Christian monks. As a result you do see changes going on, such as removal of most of the reference to the Tuatha Dé as been gods, instead been an "invasion".

There's quite a heavy amount of tales regarding the sea and the likes of sea gods such as Lír and Manannan mac Lír (whom the Isle of Man is named after). Here is an example of a monoglot seanachaí (story teller) who could only speak Irish. This was filmed during the 1980's. The story he is telling in the clip is specifically nautical. It also gives you and idea of the type of reduplication that would go into telling a story such as the Táin (or even the Illiad) orally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UP4nXlKJx_4
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« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2012, 07:48:21 PM »

Michael Cieslak et al.,  (2010) Origin and History of Mitochondrial DNA Lineages in Domestic Horses. PLoS ONE 5(12): e15311.

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Domestic horses represent a genetic paradox: although they have the greatest number of maternal lineages (mtDNA) of all domestic species, their paternal lineages are extremely homogeneous on the Y-chromosome. In order to address their huge mtDNA variation and the origin and history of maternal lineages in domestic horses, we analyzed 1961 partial d-loop sequences from 207 ancient remains and 1754 modern horses. The sample set ranged from Alaska and North East Siberia to the Iberian Peninsula and from the Late Pleistocene to modern times. We found a panmictic Late Pleistocene horse population ranging from Alaska to the Pyrenees. Later, during the Early Holocene and the Copper Age, more or less separated sub-populations are indicated for the Eurasian steppe region and Iberia. Our data suggest multiple domestications and introgressions of females especially during the Iron Age. Although all Eurasian regions contributed to the genetic pedigree of modern breeds, most haplotypes had their roots in Eastern Europe and Siberia.

Online in full, with handy map with pie-charts of haplogroups in primitive breeds, and chronological maps.
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« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2012, 08:06:46 PM »

Michael Cieslak et al.,  (2010) Origin and History of Mitochondrial DNA Lineages in Domestic Horses. PLoS ONE 5(12): e15311.

Quote
Domestic horses represent a genetic paradox: although they have the greatest number of maternal lineages (mtDNA) of all domestic species, their paternal lineages are extremely homogeneous on the Y-chromosome. In order to address their huge mtDNA variation and the origin and history of maternal lineages in domestic horses, we analyzed 1961 partial d-loop sequences from 207 ancient remains and 1754 modern horses. The sample set ranged from Alaska and North East Siberia to the Iberian Peninsula and from the Late Pleistocene to modern times. We found a panmictic Late Pleistocene horse population ranging from Alaska to the Pyrenees. Later, during the Early Holocene and the Copper Age, more or less separated sub-populations are indicated for the Eurasian steppe region and Iberia. Our data suggest multiple domestications and introgressions of females especially during the Iron Age. Although all Eurasian regions contributed to the genetic pedigree of modern breeds, most haplotypes had their roots in Eastern Europe and Siberia.

Online in full, with handy map with pie-charts of haplogroups in primitive breeds, and chronological maps.

Thanks!
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