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Author Topic: R1b1b2a1a2d3, U152, L2+  (Read 3095 times)
gunslingingardener
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« on: September 25, 2012, 07:19:58 PM »

Does anyone have information on the Y - chromosome R1b1b2a1a2d3, U152, L2+?

I've read that it was from the La Tene Celts of the Alps, the ones that ran sacked Rome, and fought in Alexander the Great's army.

Then I had read from Dr. David Faux page that it was Scandinavian Viking.

My ancestors either came in from the Alps into Normandy, or they came in with Rollo the Viking from Norway into Normandy.

I have always believed that there were Celts who became Vikings and Saxons. The Celts and Romans lived before the time of Christ. The Saxons and Vikings came way after the time of Christ.

Does anyone have any info?


All the best,
Corey

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rms2
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« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2012, 07:28:07 PM »

Rich Rocca will have the best info on L2, but I will say one thing: it is almost certainly not particularly "Viking". That was an old theory of David Faux's that has pretty much been exploded by testing results over the last few years. And by "Viking" he meant where it occurs in the British Isles.

Here is Rich's web site:

http://u152.org/

Here is a map, not of the L2 distribution, but of U152 overall.

« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 07:30:40 PM by rms2 » Logged

gunslingingardener
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« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2012, 07:40:04 PM »

Yes,

Looking at the map, my ancestors could have been anything.

It seems like Celts, Romans, etc.

I knew I had Italian ancestry on my mother's side, but I guess I have it on my father's side too.
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gunslingingardener
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« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2012, 07:58:01 PM »

R1b1b2a1a2d3, U152, L2+

Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Celts, or a mix of everything?

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2012, 08:22:34 PM »

Yes,

Looking at the map, my ancestors could have been anything.

It seems like Celts, Romans, etc.

I knew I had Italian ancestry on my mother's side, but I guess I have it on my father's side too.

As rms said, there is nothing particularly "Viking" about U152 as it is twice as frequent in Great Britain as it is in Scandinavia. As for the rest, you can see my response on your other thread.

You should really consider testing for Z49 or Z367.
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Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2012, 08:29:20 PM »

R1b1b2a1a2d3, U152, L2+

Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Celts, or a mix of everything?



In your order: yes, yes, not likely, yes, yes
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Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2012, 02:11:25 PM »

If I had to guess U152 of Norman origins could be old Gallo-Roman lines absorbed into the Frankish then Viking kingdoms in northern France.  Most of the population of France would appear to be descended from the people who were there before the arrival of the Germanic peoples and were broadly known as Gauls and then Gallo-Romans.  My impression of French yDNA is that the Franks and other Germanics, including Vikings in Normandy were a minority within a sea of earlier peoples.  I think the U152 map speaks for itself in that regard.  Its poorly represented in the north Germanic areas where Franks, Vikings etc came from and well represented in central Europe including France. However, many lineages would have gone through changes in language, identity etc as they were subject to the changes of polity in the last 2000 years. So in a sense many people's y lines have had many cultural identities.
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Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2012, 09:42:53 AM »

As far as the markers closest to mine on ysearch here is what I have discovered:

difference of 21 out of 71 compared:  YJP2G  Bricker       Switzerland

difference of 15 out of 67 compared: 9TUPN  Bourbon  Salins, Jura, Franche-Comte,France
difference of 15 out of 67 compared:  ATZJB   Perry          Alsace/Elsass, France

difference of 11 out of 37 compared:  MUKUK   Perreault    France
difference of 12 out of 37 compared:  F4JW2     Barée      Belgium

difference of   8 out of 25 compared:  BVWK8   Shettleroe  Chatellerault, France
difference of   8 out of 25 compared:  PF982   Zlatnik      Böhmen/Bohemia, Austria

When comparing the top or the top 2 closest in the R1b1a2a1a1b3c* haplogroup my matches seem to point to Northern France or nearby in neighboring countries.

Also, the closest matches I have on Genebase are:

difference of 2 out of 39 compared                   Plemons     unknown origin
difference of 2 out of 38 compared                   Grenier       unknown origin

These are both French sounding names as well.

Curtis Pigman(Pigmon/Pimond)
zhhcy R1b1a2a1a1b3c
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 05:13:31 PM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2012, 07:14:43 PM »

Does anyone have a copy of an L-2* map of Europe?  I am just wondering if the map would reflect my theory of the L-2* people coming from Eastern (Alpine) France.  

I am currently trying to follow a trail of my supposed Hugenot ancestor leaving France and then possibly in Tilburg, Netherlands,  after that directly across the channel to Old Hunstanton, Norfolk, England and probably somehow ending up in Maryland in 1695.  Generalities and possiblities are all that I have thus far but I of course "NEVER give up the search!"

Curtis Pigman(Pigmon/Pimond)
« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 08:23:26 PM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2012, 07:22:11 PM »

Does anyone have a copy of an L-2* map of Europe?  I am just wondering if the map would reflect my theory of the L-2* people coming from Nothern France.   

I am currently trying to follow a trail of my supposed Hugenot ancestor leaving France and then possibly in Tilburg, Netherlands,  after that directly across the channel to Old Hunstanton, Norfolk, England and probably somehow ending up in Maryland in 1695.  Generalities and possiblities are all that I have thus far but I of course "NEVER give up the search!"

Curtis Pigman(Pigmon/Pimond)

Curtis, we are starting to see the first papers that are starting to test at the L2 level, but we still don't know if they are Z49 or Z367. Here is a U152 project map of the L2(xZ49,Z367) samples, but keep in mind the extreme testing bias...

http://tinyurl.com/94hnffz
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Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2012, 08:17:11 PM »

Thanks for the map Richard.  I am actually in your U152 project.  I tested R1b L-2+ with genebase and then a 67 marker test with ftdna as well as negative for L-196 and L-20.

I have been corresponding with a distant Dubois cousin from France and the Pigmon/Pimond surname is from the village of Pimond-Chanac-Les Mines and surrounding areas of mainly Gimel-les-Cascades, Correze, Limousin, France.  These villages are near St. Martial-de-Gimel and St. Priest-de Gimel and Tulle in south central France.  Could you include me on your map as well?

I have not noticed any  L-2 with positive Z49 or Z367.  

It is a shame that DNA testing is not legal in France.  From what I understand the French can still order their tests from companies outside of France but generally they cannot justify the cost and do not see the benefits.

Should have said Eastern (Alpine) France in the previous message.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 08:27:14 PM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2012, 09:31:52 AM »

Thanks for the map Richard.  I am actually in your U152 project.  I tested R1b L-2+ with genebase and then a 67 marker test with ftdna as well as negative for L-196 and L-20.

I have been corresponding with a distant Dubois cousin from France and the Pigmon/Pimond surname is from the village of Pimond-Chanac-Les Mines and surrounding areas of mainly Gimel-les-Cascades, Correze, Limousin, France.  These villages are near St. Martial-de-Gimel and St. Priest-de Gimel and Tulle in south central France.  Could you include me on your map as well?

I have not noticed any  L-2 with positive Z49 or Z367.  

It is a shame that DNA testing is not legal in France.  From what I understand the French can still order their tests from companies outside of France but generally they cannot justify the cost and do not see the benefits.

Should have said Eastern (Alpine) France in the previous message.


Curtis, the map is only for confirmed L2(xZ49,Z367) kits. For those that haven't tested for Z49 and/or Z367 yet, you can simply sort the FTDNA U152 project map by the "C:a: U152> L2+" group.
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Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2012, 05:46:08 PM »

Thanks for the map Richard.  I am actually in your U152 project.  I tested R1b L-2+ with genebase and then a 67 marker test with ftdna as well as negative for L-196 and L-20.

I have been corresponding with a distant Dubois cousin from France and the Pigmon/Pimond surname is from the village of Pimond-Chanac-Les Mines and surrounding areas of mainly Gimel-les-Cascades, Correze, Limousin, France.  These villages are near St. Martial-de-Gimel and St. Priest-de Gimel and Tulle in south central France.  Could you include me on your map as well?

I have not noticed any  L-2 with positive Z49 or Z367.  

It is a shame that DNA testing is not legal in France.  From what I understand the French can still order their tests from companies outside of France but generally they cannot justify the cost and do not see the benefits.

Should have said Eastern (Alpine) France in the previous message.


Curtis, the map is only for confirmed L2(xZ49,Z367) kits. For those that haven't tested for Z49 and/or Z367 yet, you can simply sort the FTDNA U152 project map by the "C:a: U152> L2+" group.
I am planning to test for Z49 and Z367.   Just haven't done it yet.  I will let you know when I order it.

Thanks,
Curtis
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R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
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