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fcs39532
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« Reply #600 on: March 27, 2014, 06:35:19 PM »

Thanks for the info. I have join both project.

Frank
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Kettenring
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« Reply #601 on: March 02, 2015, 10:57:08 AM »

TEST 123

Is this forum still functioning?
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Jason Bourgeois
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« Reply #602 on: March 02, 2015, 07:26:08 PM »

Yes.  No one has posted for quite some time though.
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« Reply #603 on: March 02, 2015, 08:54:09 PM »

Thank you. I have read this entire thread and it is most informative. I recently ordered the SRY2627 test from FTDNA because I have three close matches at 67 markers who are all SRY 2627. When the result returns I will have several questions and observations. I am grateful for all the thought you people have put into this thread.
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« Reply #604 on: March 31, 2015, 11:08:11 AM »

Test results confirm SRY2627.  Will read this entire conversation before I ask questions.  Thanks again.
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« Reply #605 on: March 31, 2015, 11:47:26 AM »

Meant to type RE-read this whole thing before asking questions.  I must learn to proofread.
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« Reply #606 on: April 01, 2015, 10:50:30 AM »

In the 3rd century BC, Hannibal assembled an army of Celtic tribesmen from Catalonia and the Pyrenees.  They crossed southern France and then the Alps to invade Italy.  These men undoubtedly had much to do with the presence today of SRY2627 in Bavaria, Italy, and Switzerland. 
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 10:56:54 AM by Kettenring » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #607 on: April 01, 2015, 11:34:11 AM »

In the 3rd century BC, Hannibal assembled an army of Celtic tribesmen from Catalonia and the Pyrenees.  They crossed southern France and then the Alps to invade Italy.  These men undoubtedly had much to do with the presence today of SRY2627 in Bavaria, Italy, and Switzerland. 


R-SRY2627* or R-Z262* is 3800 years old but could be till 4800, and you should be sure not belonging to any subclades of its, thus to link this haplogroup to an historic episode (Annibal's army) is a little premature:
R-Z292Z292/S460 * Y964.2/M7953.2/Y964.1/M7953.1formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 4800 ybp
    R-Z292*
        id:HG01365 CLM
    R-Z262 Z201/S457 * V3130/Z689/CTS4716 * Z263... 10 SNPs formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 3800 ybp
        R-Z262*
        R-Y8421 Y8421 * Y8417 * Y9117... 3 SNPs formed 3800 ybp, TMRCA 2700 ybp
            R-Y8421*
                id:YF02444
            R-Y8410 Y8420 * Y8412 * Y8416... 17 SNPs formed 2700 ybp, TMRCA 800 ybp
                id:YF02075 ENG
                id:YF02445 ENG
        R-Z202 Z266 * Z203 * Z205... 2 SNPs formed 3800 ybp, TMRCA 3500 ybp
            R-Z202*
            R-CTS606 CTS606 formed 3500 ybp, TMRCA 2700 ybp
                R-CTS606*
                    id:NA19741 MXL
                R-CTS3555 Y7733 * Y7730 * Y8474... 3 SNPs formed 2700 ybp, TMRCA 1700 ybp
                    R-CTS3555*
                        id:HG01374 CLM
                        id:HG01791 GBR
                    R-Y7729 Y7731 * Y8477 * Y7729... 10 SNPs formed 1700 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybp
                        id:YF02328
            R-Z206 Z206/S235 * Z690 formed 3500 ybp, TMRCA 3500 ybp
                R-Z206*
                    id:HG01359 CLM
                    id:NA12716 CEU
                    id:YF01632
                R-Z208 CTS8289 * Z208/S362 * Z207/S251... 1 SNPs formed 3500 ybp, TMRCA 3200 ybp
                    R-Z208*
                        id:NA19777 MXL
                    R-CTS43 CTS43 * CTS5447 * CTS10925... 7 SNPs
                        id:HG01464 CLM
                        id:HG01148 CLM
                    R-CTS9762 CTS9762 formed 3200 ybp, TMRCA 3100 ybp
                        R-CTS9762*
                            id:NA20342 ASW
                        R-CTS4299 CTS4299 formed 3100 ybp, TMRCA 2900 ybp
                            id:HG00126 GBR
                            id:YF01954
                            id:YF02155
                            id:YF02301
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Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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« Reply #608 on: April 01, 2015, 12:55:16 PM »

It is difficult that all these people descend from the "Hannibal's Army". They are a cluster with DYS490=10 and seem to belong to the subclade CTS4299, whose MRCA is 2900 years old for the last YFull tree:
204051 POOLE of DawleyMagna,Shropshire ENG c1790    United Kingdom R-SRY2627    
13    23    14    11    11-14    12    12    11    13    13    30    17    9-10    11    11    25    15    18    30    15-15-17-18    11    11    19-23    16    14    17    18    36-36    12    12    11    9    14-16    8    10    10    8    11    10    12    23-23    16    10    12    10    16    8    12    22    20    13    12    10    13    11    11    12    12    34    15    9    17    12    25    26    19    12    11    12    12    10    9    11    12    10    10    11    30    12    13    24    12    11    10    23    15    20    14    24    16    12    15    24    12    23    19    10    14    17    9    12    11
126548  Daniel Juillet, 1618, Loge Fougereuse, France France R-SRY2627    
13    23    14    11    11-14    12    12    12    13    13    29    17    9-10    11    11    25    15    17    29    15-15-17-18    11    11    19-23    17    15    17    17    37-37    13    12    11    9    15-16    8    10    10    8    10    12    12    23-23    16    10    12    10    16    8    12    22    20    13    12    11    13    11    11    12    12
27573    THOMAS Atte MEDE born ca.1360, Wraxall,Somerset, E    England R-SRY2627    
13    23    14    11    11-14    12    12    12    14    13    30    18    9-10    11    12    25    15    19    29    15-15-17-18    11    11    19-23    15    15    18    15    37-38    13    12    11    9    15-16    8    10    10    8    10    10    12    23-23    16    10    12    10    16    8    13    22    20    13    12    11    13    11    11    12    11                                                                     

N42387 Jean Vernade 1659 Bourges (France) France R-CTS4299    
13    23    15    10    10-14    12    12    12    13    13    29    17    9-10    11    11    24    15    19    30    15-16-17-18    11    11    19-23    15    15    18    16    37-37    13    12    10    9    15-16    8    11    10    8    10    10    12    25-25    17    10    12    10    16    8    12    22    20    14    12    11    13    11    11    12    10    35    15    9    17    12    23    26    19    12    12    12    12    10    9    11    12    10    11    11    30    12    13    24    13    11    11    21    15    19    13    24    18    12    15    24    12    23    21    10    14    17    9    12    11
B26940  ADOPTED Unknown Origin R-Z207    
13    24    14    10    11-14    12    12    11    13    13    29    19    9-9    11    11    25    15    19    28    15-15-17-18    11    11    19-23    16    15    19    19    37-38    12    12    11    9    16-16    8    10    10    8    10    10    12    23-23    16    10    12    10    16    8    11    22    20    13    12    11    13    11    11    12    12    35    15    9    16    12    25    25    19    12    11    13    12    10    9    13    13    10    11    11    30    12    13    24    13    12    10    22    15    20    13    24    16    12    15    24    12    23    19    10    14    17    9    12    11
N113329 Salvador Marimon b.1690 near Barcelona, Catalonia    Spain    R-CTS4299    
13    24    14    10    11-14    12    12    12    13    13    29    15    9-10    11    11    25    15    19    30    15-15-17-18    11    11    19-23    16    16    19    17    37-37    13    12    11    9    15-16    8    11    10    8    11    10    12    23-23    16    10    12    10    16    8    12    23    19    14    12    11    13    11    11    12    11    34    15    9    17    13    24    26    19    12    11    12    12    10    11    12    12    10    11    11    30    12    13    24    13    11    10    18    14    20    13    25    17    13    15    24    12    24    20    10    14    17    9    12    11
72456    Alonso Jaime Rael de Aguilar, b. Feb. 14, 1661    Spain    R-SRY2627    
13    24    14    10    11-14    12    13    12    14    13    30    20    9-10    11    11    25    15    19    29    15-15-17-18    12    10    19-23    15    14    19    17    37-38    12    12    11    9    15-16    8    10    10    8    10    10    12    23-23    16    10    12    10    16    8    12    22    20    13    12    11    13    11    12    12    12
N108861 Charles Schmidt(became Smith in USA)bc1846 Germany Germany R-SRY2627    
13    24    14    10    11-16    12    12    12    13    13    29    17    9-10    11    11    25    15    19    30    15-15-15-18    11    10    19-23    16    15    18    19    37-38    12    12    12    9    15-16    8    10    10    8    10    10    12    23-23    15    10    12    10    16    8    12    24    20    13    12    11    13    11    12    12    12    35    14    9    17    12    25    26    19    12    11    12    12    10    9    12    12    10    11    11    30    12    13    24    13    11    10    24    15    19    14    24    18    12    15    24    12    24    19    10    14    17    9    12    11
E10868  Donato Alberti 1350 Foza (Vicenza) < 1050 Bavaria Italy R-SRY2627    
13    24    14    11    11-14    12    12    11    13    13    29    17    9-10    11    11    25    15    19    29    14-15-16-17    12    11    19-23    16    15    18    17    36-38    12    12    11    9    15-16    8    10    10    8    10    10    12    23-23    16    10    12    10    16    8    13    22    20    13    12    11    13    12    11    12    12    36    15    9    17    12    25    26    19    12    11    12    12    10    9    12    12    10    11    11    30    12    13    24    13    11    10    19    15    20    13    24    15    12    15    25    12    23    20    10    14    16    9    13    11
153374  Heinrich Ankele, abt.1833, Wurttemberg, Germany Germany R-SRY2627    
13    24    14    11    11-14    12    12    11    13    13    29    18    9-10    11    11    25    15    19    30    15-16-17-17    11    11    19-23    16    14    19    17    36-38    12    12    11    9    15-16    8    10    10    8    10    10    12    23-23    16    10    12    10    16    8    11    22    20    13    12    11    13    11    11    12    12
118119  Joshua T. Parish Unknown Origin R-CTS4299
13    24    14    11    11-14    12    12    11    13    13    30    17    9-10    11    11    25    15    19    30    15-15-15-17    11    11    19-23    15    15    18    18    38-38    12    12    11    9    15-16    8    10    10    8    10    10    0    22-23    16    10    12    10    17    8    12    22    21    13    12    11    13    11    11    12    12    35    15    9    17    12    25    26    19    12    10    12    11    12    9    12    12    10    11    11    30    12    12    24    12    11    6    23    15    19    13    25    17    13    15    25    12    23    19    10    14    17    9    12    11
97633    Edward Parrish (1669-1723), Maryland    England R-CTS4299    
13    24    14    11    11-14    12    12    11    13    13    30    18    9-10    11    11    25    15    19    30    15-15-15-17    11    11    19-23    15    15    19    18    37-38    12    12    11    9    15-16    8    10    10    8    10    10    0    22-23    16    10    12    10    18    8    12    22    21    13    12    11    13    11    11    12    13    35    15    9    17    12    26    26    19    12    10    12    11    12    9    12    12    10    11    11    30    12    12    24    12    11    6    22    15    19    13    25    16    13    15    24    12    23    19    10    14    17    9    12    11
5185    Johann Gaspar Rotter 1732-1812 Wythe, VA, USA Unknown Origin R-Z207    
13    24    14    11    11-14    12    12    12    13    13    29    17    9-9    11    11    25    15    19    30    15-15-17-18    11    11    19-23    16    15    16    17    34-37    13    12    11    9    16-16    8    10    10    8    10    11    12    23-23    16    10    12    10    16    8    11    22    20    14    12    11    13    11    11    12    12    35    16    9    16    13    26    26    19    12    11    12    12    11    9    12    12    10    11    11    30    12    12    24    13    12    10    22    15    20    13    24    17    11    15    24    12    23    19    10    14    17    9    12    11
23253    Jacques Bourgeois, c. 1621, France    France    R-CTS4299    
13    24    14    11    11-14    12    12    12    13    13    29    18    9-10    11    11    24    14    19    31    14-15-17-18    10    11    19-23    15    15    18    17    35-38    11    12    11    8    15-16    8    10    10    8    10    10    12    23-23    16    10    12    10    16    8    11    22    21    13    12    11    13    11    11    12    12
N16281 John W. Yeomans, born c. 1886, Boston, MA United Kingdom R-Z207    
13    24    14    11    11-14    12    12    12    13    13    29    19    9-9    11    11    24    15    17    29    14-15-16-17    11    11    23-23    17    15    18    16    37-38    12    12    11    9    15-16    8    10    10    8    10    10    12    22-23    16    10    12    10    18    8    13    23    20    13    12    11    14    12    11    12    12    37    15    9    17    12    24    26    19    12    11    12    12    10    9    11    12    10    11    11    30    12    13    24    13    11    10    21    15    20    13    24    17    12    15    24    12    23    19    10    14    17    9    12    11
E2318    Cornille Wangermez ~1620 Beclers 7532 Belgium Belgium R-CTS4299    
14    23    14    11    11-14    12    12    12    13    13    29    18    9-10    11    11    25    15    19    29    15-15-17-18    11    11    19-23    15    15    17    16    40-40    12    12    11    9    15-16    8    10    10    8    10    9    12    21-23    16    10    12    10    16    8    12    22    20    14    12    11    13    11    11    12    12                                         
5130    Francis Browne, b.1620 and d.1682 England R-SRY2627    
14    23    14    12    11-14    12    12    12    12    13    27    18    9-10    12    11    25    15    19    29    15-15-15-16    11    12    19-23    16    15    18    16    37-39    12    12    11    9    15-16    8    10    10    8    10    10    12    23-23    16    10    12    10    16    8    12    22    20    13    12    11    14    11    11    12    12                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 04:25:49 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #609 on: April 01, 2015, 01:13:56 PM »

"It is difficult that all these people descend from the "Hannibal's Army"."

I did not so claim in my post.   
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #610 on: April 01, 2015, 04:31:14 PM »

"It is difficult that all these people descend from the "Hannibal's Army"."

I did not so claim in my post.   
 
That for saying that the distribution (from Iberia to France, Germany and the Isles: the Italian sample is very likely of recent German origin) isn't in agreement with your statement, and a suggestion to test CTS4299, which is very likely your terminal SNP.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #611 on: April 01, 2015, 05:35:20 PM »

I wrote nothing about the Isles. 

No one can seriously argue that such a massive army leaves no DNA in its wake.

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« Reply #612 on: April 01, 2015, 11:58:49 PM »

 "R-CTS4299 CTS4299 formed 3100 ybp, TMRCA 2900 ybp"

And Hannibal and his Iberian troops lived and fought 2200 ybp.

What is your point?
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« Reply #613 on: February 06, 2016, 05:39:47 PM »

Hello,
I am a newcomer to this forum and  to DNA testing. I got the result of Gene 2.0 testing which is R-Z269. I found very little information on this group. Just a few mentions as being "equivalent to" SRY2627 or a "subgroup" of it.

Can you tell me a bit more about the relation between Z269 and SRY2627 ?
Is there any information about distribution of Z269 ?

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« Reply #614 on: March 25, 2016, 05:46:35 AM »

Hello gentlemen,

My question about Z269 as a sub-group of SRY2627 has been answered by a resounding silence.
I can think about three reasons:
- A. Nobody bothers to answer such a silly question.
- B. Nobody has a clue about this very legitimate question.
- C. There is nobody around because this forum is dead.

By the way, I forgot to introduce myself.
I am French. My more distant documented ancestors lived (XVth century) in a remote high mountain valley of French ... Alps. Not necessarily where you would expect to find SRY2627.
This area was home to the alpine tribe of the Ceutrones (or Centrones). It included the Tarentaise valley leading to the Petit-Saint-Bernard pass probably (if you follow Polybius) used by the carthaginian armies.
Nevertheless, for different reasons,I doubt that they left much genetic traces in the Alps (especially SRY2627).

Regards

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Claquin
Jason Bourgeois
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« Reply #615 on: March 25, 2016, 08:37:23 AM »

Hello Claquin, sorry no one has answered your previous question.  I am not familiar with Gene 2.0's testing structure, but according to FamilyTreeDNA, Z269 is the equivalent of SRY2627. 

As for distribution, as you have read this marker is primarily found along the Pyrenees, and up the Atlantic coast and northern coasts of France.  It is part of a larger group called DF 27.  Here is a speculative interpretation (based on current findings) of the origins of this group with a frequency map:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#DF27

Based on this speculative interpretation, it appears that there was a migration in the 1300s-700s BC from the central "Celtic homeland" towards the Pyrenees where the group predominated.  Perhaps your ancestors "stopped on the way" and settled in the Alps instead?
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Claquin
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« Reply #616 on: April 03, 2016, 08:48:27 AM »

Hello Jason,

Thank you for your reply. Some sources, as you wrote, consider Z269 as equivalent to SRY2627. Others consider it as a sub-group of SRY2627 with no further information. I guess I will have to wait and see if more comes out about Z269 in the future.

As far as the ancestor stopping in the way during the migration, it is a possibility but may be not the most likely one.

When I look at the Eupedia distribution map for DF27, outside of the Pyrenean "homeland", the low fequency areas do not necessarily stike me as a map of dispersion of an original celtic migration. It looks to me more (with the exception the scandinavian area) as a map of the Roman Empire. It is especially striking as matching the "limes" along the Rhine and Danube.

We know that in the second punic war, the Catalonian tribes were the first iberian allies of the Romans. Later, the Romans recruited heavily in Hispania, first for auxiliary troops and later for the legions to fill the needs created by the constant conquest and civil wars. For several centuries, a significant portion of the roman legions (or auxiliaries) were from Hispania.
At the end of their service time, many were settled in veteran colonies far from their original homeland. These garrisons and veteran colonies must have left a genetic trace in different regions of the Roman Empire.

In the case of the French Alps, the local tribes stayed independant and mostly ignored by the Romans until the conquest of Gaul. After that, their favorite sport, which was hurling rocks from upper ground on visitors, Carthaginians or Romans, passing in the valley (you will note that in this sport, the visitors are also the receiving side !), became unpalatable to the latter as their need to cross the passes from Italy to Gaul became more frequent.
Cesar complained, and Augustus grew tired of it. He ordered the conquest of the Alps and installation of garrisons to pacify the local tribes and secure the passes. Some of the troops could have been Hispanians.

I am not suggesting that the Roman army is the single explanation for low frequency spread of SRY2627 in many areas but that it must have played a significant part. In some areas it may even be more likely than a stray from the original celtic migration. 
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« Reply #617 on: August 20, 2016, 06:59:10 AM »

Hello all it's been awhile  I still believe if our origins started in France we maybe what was left of the Pictone and Santone tribes that controlled the Bay of Biscay. Both of these tribes were sea fairing tribes that no doubt traded with tribes in England and else where. The Santones even built a fleet of ships for the Romans for the conquest of England so they must have been advanced ship builders. And given the location of these tribes enabled them to trade in many areas and no doubt people got off the boat and stayed in some cases IMO
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 05:45:25 AM by Brousse » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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« Reply #618 on: August 20, 2016, 07:07:17 AM »

Also I know it has been shot down many times as far as a connection with the Pictone tribe of SW France and the Picish people but they both share a common hard to overlook fact  both groups had a navy
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R1b1a2a1a1b5a Sry2627+ My family was exiled from Cognac France in 1685 Lived in London for 15 years then on to America to the Manikin town settlement for French Protestants in 1700
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