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rms2
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« on: September 22, 2012, 06:16:31 PM »

Hey! Does anyone know how things are going with the Scots Modal and the Big Six DF13+ SNPs? How many Big Six SNPs have been eliminated for the Scots Modal?

I'm guessing the Scots Modal is DF13+ but negative for all the known subclades, at least judging by the large Templeton family in the R-L21 Plus Project.

Is that right?
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OConnor
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2012, 09:42:09 PM »

I have noticed some 458=18 / R-L21 sequences with Scottish surnames.

At the 25 level I have many Robins/Robbins popping up. I suspect I have an ancient connection with these Scot people.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2012, 10:41:49 PM »

Hey! Does anyone know how things are going with the Scots Modal and the Big Six DF13+ SNPs? How many Big Six SNPs have been eliminated for the Scots Modal?

I'm guessing the Scots Modal is DF13+ but negative for all the known subclades, at least judging by the large Templeton family in the R-L21 Plus Project.

Is that right?

Yes, I've got that the Templetons, who are clear subset 13-1030Sc (Scots) people, as DF13* and negative for each of the Big Six SNPs.  To extrapolate that outward, all 13-1030Sc (Scots) people must be negative for the Big Six SNPs.

The same is true for 13-1511A-T2 (Irish II). They are negative for all of the Big Six.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
rms2
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« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2012, 07:24:30 AM »

Hey! Does anyone know how things are going with the Scots Modal and the Big Six DF13+ SNPs? How many Big Six SNPs have been eliminated for the Scots Modal?

I'm guessing the Scots Modal is DF13+ but negative for all the known subclades, at least judging by the large Templeton family in the R-L21 Plus Project.

Is that right?

Yes, I've got that the Templetons, who are clear subset 13-1030Sc (Scots) people, as DF13* and negative for each of the Big Six SNPs.  To extrapolate that outward, all 13-1030Sc (Scots) people must be negative for the Big Six SNPs.

The same is true for 13-1511A-T2 (Irish II). They are negative for all of the Big Six.

Thanks, Mike. That is what I thought, but I wanted to be sure.
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Albannach
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« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2012, 11:24:35 AM »

Is the Scots modal representative of Gaelic or Pictish ancestry? I know Wilson and Moffatt regard it as Pictish but I'm not so sure, I remember seeing a map a couple of years ago and the highest distribution seemed very western and a better match for the Dalriada. I know there are some Scots modal people in Ireland but not that many, does the lack of native Irish scots modal people rule out an Irish origin?.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2012, 12:05:47 PM »

I agree with this.  As for a lack in Ireland, the Dalriadans came from one very specific part of one county.  I would be susprised if there are more than a couple of people (if any) from this part of Ireland in our databases.   In addition the original Dalriada in Ireland has had a couple of major changes in population since then and no surnames stemming from the original Irish Dalriadan lineage (not counting Medieval and post-Medieval reflux settlement which brought Scottish names) survive.  So, the mother line is dead in any detectable way.  I think it is now beyond proof.  Distribution is never a great method of interpreting DNA but in this case its so western and with its highest concentration in Argyll the heartland of the Gaelic Scots that I can see no other option than to see it as Dalriadan in some way.   Although the complex history of Scotland has to be taken into account you cannot have wanted a better distribution to match impact of Dalriadan - highest in Argyll and beyond that in Skye and Atholl which are both associated with Gaelic expansion beyond Dalriada and high in clans with the most persistent claims to royal Dalriadan origins like the McGregors etc.  I think its a very good match for Dalriada and the opposite of what you would expect of a Pictish line.  However, bar lots of very well resolved ancient DNA I think this is beyond proof now due to the complete wipeout of the old Dalriadan lines in Ireland (and we should not count surnames due to reflux Medieval Scottish Hebridean clan movement back to the old Irish Dalriada area as Dalriadan or you create a circular arguement).  The Irish Dalriada area was overrun by the Anglo-Normans and other Irish tribes before it was settled by Highland Scots and finally partly by Lowland Scots.  Unlike some Irish tribes, no surnames have survived from Irish Dalriada and its now impossible to select or identify representatives of the Irish part of Dalriada (i.e. those who never left). 
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 03:04:46 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Heber
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« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2012, 12:12:36 PM »

An extract from the "Scots, A Genetic Journey", deals with the DNA of the Picts.
R1b-str47 appears to be a subgroup of L21, so yes it would appear that the Picts were distant cousins of the Dal Riadian Gaels from an earlier age. There were exchanges across the narrow channel between Ireland and Scotland from Mesolithic Times.

“A marker has been identified that is essentially unique to Scotland and rarely found elsewhere. It is known as R1b-str47 or R1b-Pict and around 10% of Scottish men carry it. In our towns and villages 250,000 Picts are quietly going about their daily lives. The distribution of the marker broadly matches the Pictish territory and where later incursions such as Dalriada Gaels and the Vikings overlaid it, the numbers are diluted.It is well represented in the east of Scotland above the Forth but much less so in Northern and Western Isles. R1b-Pict is at least 3,000 years old and possibly even older and is a subgroup of S145 (L21)”.

"In 839, a battle was fought in Strathearn that may have spelled the end of the Pictish kingdom south of the Mounth. A great force of Vikings slaughtered the Pictish nobility in such numbers that a vacuum allowed Kenneth McAlpin to establish himself in Pictland in the aftermath. He may not have been the first Dalriadian king to rule east of Drumalban but all Scottish kings are numbered from him and, with his accession, a process of unification did appear to begin in earnest".

Here is what Moffat and Wilson have to say about Dal Riada. IMO Moffat and Wilson are the best sources on Scottish DNA from a combined Cultural, Linguistic, Archealogy and DNA perspective. Here are some examples of cross channel genealogies.

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-history-in-maps/
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763708372/
http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-migrations-dna/

“Did it (the M222 marker) cross the sea with the war bands of Fergus Mor mac Erc and his ancestors? There is uncompromising evidence that it did. More than 6 percent of all Scottish men carry M222, around 150,000 are direct decendents of Niall, the High King of the Irish. The frequency of the marker is very pronounced on the west with 9 per cent and less in the east with 3 per cent on the axis from Galloway to Shetland. It occurs very often amongst men with ancient Scottish surnames and whose family trees can, in some cases, be traced back over three centuries. Those in Scotland with the M222 marker are not recent immigrants and their high incidence and geographic spread indicate a large scale movement of people – probably mainly from Ulster and probably around AD 500”.

http://www.box.net/shared/gsbm92c2ri

The frequencies of the M222 Y chromosome group are shown across the British Isles using pie charts. Up to 3000 samples were used to create this map.
“Other Irish specific markers from the period around AD 500 can be found in Scotland and their presence reinforces a sense of colonization. S168 (M226) is relatively rare and strongly concentrated around the River Shannon where it is now found in Tipperary and Limerick. This was once the territory of the Dalcassian clans, the decendents of the great High King Brian Boru. S169 (L159.2) is most common in Leinster, the lands of the Lagin clans, and it too is found in Scotland, especially amongst men with the surnames Beattie and Ferguson”.
“The genetic and political divide between incomers and natives also had cultural facets. The Dalriadans spoke Irish Gaelic, Q-Celtic, while the Picts spoke P-Celtic and it appears that the languages were not mutually intelligible. When St Columba attempted to bring the Word of God to the Picts, it had to be translated”.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2012, 03:24:10 PM »

An extract from the "Scots, A Genetic Journey", deals with the DNA of the Picts.
R1b-str47 appears to be a subgroup of L21, so yes it would appear that the Picts were distant cousins of the Dal Riadian Gaels from an earlier age. There were exchanges across the narrow channel between Ireland and Scotland from Mesolithic Times.

“A marker has been identified that is essentially unique to Scotland and rarely found elsewhere. It is known as R1b-str47 or R1b-Pict and around 10% of Scottish men carry it. In our towns and villages 250,000 Picts are quietly going about their daily lives. The distribution of the marker broadly matches the Pictish territory and where later incursions such as Dalriada Gaels and the Vikings overlaid it, the numbers are diluted.It is well represented in the east of Scotland above the Forth but much less so in Northern and Western Isles. R1b-Pict is at least 3,000 years old and possibly even older and is a subgroup of S145 (L21)”.

"In 839, a battle was fought in Strathearn that may have spelled the end of the Pictish kingdom south of the Mounth. A great force of Vikings slaughtered the Pictish nobility in such numbers that a vacuum allowed Kenneth McAlpin to establish himself in Pictland in the aftermath. He may not have been the first Dalriadian king to rule east of Drumalban but all Scottish kings are numbered from him and, with his accession, a process of unification did appear to begin in earnest".

Here is what Moffat and Wilson have to say about Dal Riada. IMO Moffat and Wilson are the best sources on Scottish DNA from a combined Cultural, Linguistic, Archealogy and DNA perspective. Here are some examples of cross channel genealogies.

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-history-in-maps/
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763708372/
http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-migrations-dna/

“Did it (the M222 marker) cross the sea with the war bands of Fergus Mor mac Erc and his ancestors? There is uncompromising evidence that it did. More than 6 percent of all Scottish men carry M222, around 150,000 are direct decendents of Niall, the High King of the Irish. The frequency of the marker is very pronounced on the west with 9 per cent and less in the east with 3 per cent on the axis from Galloway to Shetland. It occurs very often amongst men with ancient Scottish surnames and whose family trees can, in some cases, be traced back over three centuries. Those in Scotland with the M222 marker are not recent immigrants and their high incidence and geographic spread indicate a large scale movement of people – probably mainly from Ulster and probably around AD 500”.

http://www.box.net/shared/gsbm92c2ri

The frequencies of the M222 Y chromosome group are shown across the British Isles using pie charts. Up to 3000 samples were used to create this map.
“Other Irish specific markers from the period around AD 500 can be found in Scotland and their presence reinforces a sense of colonization. S168 (M226) is relatively rare and strongly concentrated around the River Shannon where it is now found in Tipperary and Limerick. This was once the territory of the Dalcassian clans, the decendents of the great High King Brian Boru. S169 (L159.2) is most common in Leinster, the lands of the Lagin clans, and it too is found in Scotland, especially amongst men with the surnames Beattie and Ferguson”.
“The genetic and political divide between incomers and natives also had cultural facets. The Dalriadans spoke Irish Gaelic, Q-Celtic, while the Picts spoke P-Celtic and it appears that the languages were not mutually intelligible. When St Columba attempted to bring the Word of God to the Picts, it had to be translated”.


I think M&W have got an awful lot wrong personally when it comes to interpretation.  The whole M222 thing is a misnomer.  M222 was located in NW Ireland and had barely come into existence at the traditional time of Dalriada's founding in late 400s and even that was probably simply the transfer of the overkingship of Dalriada to Scotland rather than the initial settlement which could have been going on since c. 300AD.  M222 probably has nothing to do with Dalriada.  Perhaps M222 had some links with later movements and of course there was an Airgialla element too in Dalriada noted in the Senchas Fir nanAlban survey who Bannerman (still the best source even now) indicated were most likely linked with the north Derry tribes.  However, it is clear to me that M&W do not have a very good understanding of this period and have a simplistic view of Dalriada as anything that looks more Irish when its found in Scotland.  To me it was a poor and lazy effort for them to try and link M222 to Dalriada.  As I posted before, there are glaring improbabilities with the R1b-Scot being linked to the Picts.  Everything about it shouts out its having been a Dalriadan marker.  We simply do not nor will ever have the original Irish Dalriada DNA in Ireland unless ancient DNA from the period 200-500AD is excavated in coastal Antrim and resolved right down to clade.

I doubt it was earlier for archaeological reasons and also for the simply fact that Ptolemys map of 2nd century AD shows the Epidi.  I know some nonsense about someone  called Eochaid or similar in the Dalriadan king list has been attempted to link to Epidi but anyone who works with Irish sources would know that the name is incredibly ubiquitous in that period in Ireland.  There is no doubt that the simplified idea of Fergus and three brothers founding the kingdom should not be taken literally. Indeed historians for decades only see them as founding of a royal dynasty over the top of perhaps 200 years of settlement from Ireland. 
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