Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)

[Maliclavelli]

Are you listed on ysearch?

This is the first question to put. There is a “Flying Greek” on these forums, then; “saje”, or whoever you are: your STRs above all, and after I’ll do my analysis.

[saje]

Hi Maliclavelli!

I am listed on Ysearch - XQE85.  Thanks!  I am searching for the origins of my paternal family. 

Hi Acekon,

Thanks for the post.  And please forgive my novice questions in advance.  What are slow/medium/fast mutations? 

Thanks!  This forum has been so informative, friendly and helpful. 

Best,

Saje

[Jarman]

New Results:
Robinson/Robbins sample 37486 is now Z2105+
Previously tested L584-
FWIW:  Dys461=11,  DYS425=null,  YCAII=18-23
Now where in Scotland did their ancestor live and how did he get there?

This Robinson/Robbins family traces back to an unspecified home in Scotland in the very early 1600s. How could an R-L23>Z2105+ get to Scotland?  Is it Pictish? I've seen speculation that their ancestor was a Roman auxilary soldier, but wouldn't sources that old have produced a bigger presence among Scots today?  Could this haplogroup have reasonably been carried to Scotland by Norwegians or Vikings?

[acekon]

Hi Maliclavelli!

I am listed on Ysearch - XQE85.  Thanks!  I am searching for the origins of my paternal family.  

Hi Acekon,

Thanks for the post.  And please forgive my novice questions in advance.  What are slow/medium/fast mutations?  

Thanks!  This forum has been so informative, friendly and helpful.  

Best,

Saje

 After looking at your profile on ysearch I'll  go out on a limb and make a prediction, you look like you will  fit in, with Eastern European cluster, Z2105+ and L277- L584- ,just speculation though, so take it with a grain of salt . Genetic distance with "Bruce"SC2HJ from Bavaria/Bayern, Germany 14/67 R1b1a2a1a1b4 (tested) and also FEPAF-Osset. Very interesting, maybe there is a pattern developing here.

[acekon]

Gioiello, congratulations on your Z2105+ results! It will be interesting to see where the line of demarcation is for L51 and Z2105 lineages. Do you have any close matches with the other Z2105+ kits?

You ask me which could be the R-L23 candidate for Z2105-. We are seeing that the R-L23 tested so far are all Z2105+, and the Western European ones are also L277- and L584-, whereas the Eastern ones are above all L277+ or L584+, then not ancestors of L51.

Some years ago I found on SMGF and put on ySearch Risso (Pra, Genova, Italy), ySearch EK3WY, I interpreted like the far ancestor of the Albanian/Balkan cluster. These are his values for SMGF (43 markers format):

14 23 14 11 11-11 12 13 13 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 30 15-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 12 12 10 11 12 23 10 13 12 12 13 30 24

Very close to him is this Beecham from the Isles (ySearch TN2ZH):

14 23 14 11 11-11 12 14 12 14 13 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 13 12 12 11 12 23 10 13 12 12 12 30 24

They belong to the same cluster, but of course they may be separated from thousands of years, the time of expansion from Italy to the Isles.

They are R-L23 (see *DYS461=11, mutated in Risso to 10 and in Beecham to 12) and they presupposes also DYS393=13 like the Albanian/Balkan cluster, mutated in both to 14. Interesting is their DYS464=15-16-16-17, which presupposes:

14-15-16-18 to 14-15-16-17 to 15-15-16-17

From this asset they had 15-16-16-17, whereas the ancestor of the subclades from L51 to the others had 15-15-17-17.

We find this asset also in N24769 from India, difficult to think that the ancestor was there, given the negligible number of R-L23 there, better a migration from West.

Of course I may be not sure that these are L23+/Z2105-, but perhaps it would merit to test someone of this cluster.

I'm trying to understand what is going on here with DSY393.  I had thought the L51+ became DYS393=13 while L23* remained DYS393=12. Shouldn't this pattern continue to hold true with Z2105+?

393-12/13, can go either way, it is good to verify other results.

We have to wait for Saje results. However Genetic distance with "Bruce"SC2HJ from Bavaria/Bayern, Germany [14/67] R1b1a2a1a1b4 (tested). who has 393-13
13   24   14   10   11   15   12   12   12   13   13   30   

I'm confirmed Z2105+ L277- L584-, which i think Saje will be also, [speculation]
I match "Callsen", and private surname"M"  from Northern Germany, Denmark,  and "Briskey" from Hesse Darmstadt, Germany, all three of these have 393-12, they are all verified     R1b1a2a1a1b4 according to my FamilyTreeDna Ydna match screen with terminal snp L21.

Also Callsen matched  on slow markers 393[12],426[12],388[12],392[13],455[11],454[11],437[15],438[12].

medium matches
390[24],19[14],391[10],385[11-14],439[11],389I[14],389II[31]
459[9-10],447[25],448[19],ycaII[19-23]

medium matches off by one.
460 [10_11],Gata H-4 [10_11], 607 [ 15_16] ,442[11_12]

That is why i find Saje's genetic distance with "Bruce" Bavaria/Bayern, Germany [14/67] R1b1a2a1a1b4 (tested) also of interest, even though 393-12 and 393-13 are different.

I also like A, Klyosov's work and ideas. However it is very coincidental that Callsen's  derived lineage line 312-21 could be so matchy and so close to my paternal ancestors, 200+/- kms.

[saje]

Hello Acekon,

Thanks for your time and expertise.  I will let you know the results of my Z2105 test as soon as possible.  They say by November 20th.  Please keep me posted as to this "pattern" you speak of and how I can help further any findings for myself and the community. 

I think it's interesting that I have German and Osset matches.  Looks like I can test Geno 2; although I just sent away for AncestryDNA.  I can also test for L584, L277 SNPS...

Best,

Saje

[saje]

Is L277 and L584 the only SNPs that live downstream of L2105?  I'd like to test as far as I can. 

It's very interesting that I've matched with Slovak and Hungarians and also Osset - who's people lived in Hungary at one time (from what I've read).