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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2012, 02:05:27 PM »

FTDNA is very busy:

Z2105 Z2105 483 12/11/2012


So what do these numbers mean? For Z2105, FTDNA has tested 19 and 16 have been derived.
My results will be ready on 11 December 2012. But where are the three ancestral documented? And where do they come from?

Gioiello, congratulations on your Z2105+ results! It will be interesting to see where the line of demarcation is for L51 and Z2105 lineages. Do you have any close matches with the other Z2105+ kits?
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Diana
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« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2012, 04:02:21 PM »

Yes, congrats Gioiello!


FTDNA is very busy:

Z2105 Z2105 483 12/11/2012


So what do these numbers mean? For Z2105, FTDNA has tested 19 and 16 have been derived.
My results will be ready on 11 December 2012. But where are the three ancestral documented? And where do they come from?

Gioiello, congratulations on your Z2105+ results! It will be interesting to see where the line of demarcation is for L51 and Z2105 lineages. Do you have any close matches with the other Z2105+ kits?
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R1b1a2a1a1b3 U152+ Z56+ Z144/Z145/Z146+ P312+ U106- M228.2- M160- M126- L4- L21- L2- L196- L176.2- DYS492=14 Roma, Italia.
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« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2012, 05:14:54 PM »

I have just ordered Z2105 for me. I expect to be positive, but we'll see. As I have said in the other thread, beeing the Eastern R-L23* mostly L277+ and L584+, then Z2105+, I think that Z2105- will be found in Italy or in Europe.

Eastern R-L23*_South West Asia is divided between Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European languages. Those who believe R-Z2105- is derived from Afro-Asiatic language region  should look accordingly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Afroasiatic-en.svg&page=1

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Geni
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« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2012, 06:21:45 PM »

I have just ordered Z2105+Z2103+dys 461.I am  albanian..... Fega  FTDNA
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 06:42:38 PM by Geni » Logged
acekon
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« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2012, 08:11:51 PM »

I have just ordered Z2105+Z2103+dys 461.I am  albanian..... Fega  FTDNA

That is great, Geni! Any idea on the date of expected results? I hope Maliclavelli comes back and shares his results and what he thinks.
I was L584- so I only had to order L277 and Z2105, FTDNA was relatively quick. Ordered Sept 7 batched Sept 12 and completed Oct 3; not bad.
Just a coincidence but my#4 result on: Gedmatch

Mixed Mode Population Sharing  MDLP-22
4)55.2%   North-East-European (ancestral)+44.8%Kosovar (derived) @2.25
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 08:33:45 PM by acekon » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2012, 12:47:58 PM »

I have just ordered Z2105+Z2103+dys 461.I am  albanian..... Fega  FTDNA
Dys 461= 11
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Y-DNA : R1b1a2a1 L23+L150+ ,Z2103+,Z2105+-L51 -L310-P312,-U106
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2012, 03:00:12 PM »

I have just ordered Z2105+Z2103+dys 461.I am  albanian..... Fega  FTDNA
Dys 461= 11


Geni, unfortunately when you ordered your tests I wasn’t able to write to you, because your tests are probably useless. Belonging you to the “Albanian cluster” (or the “Balkan cluster “as I called it: in fact were Argiedude and me to discover it), you are very likely not only DYS461=11 but also Z2103 and Z2105+.
Certainly would be more useful to find that Risso from Liguria I extracted from SMGF and put on ySearch and I supposed the Italian ancestor of the “Balkan cluster” and to test him.
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Maliclavelli


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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2012, 03:14:41 PM »

I will be sending out an email to the following FTDNA Italy Project group asking that they test for Z2105:

R1b1a2 (L23+, Z2105 Not Tested)

Kit no. N37658, surname Romitti, from Lombardia has already ordered.
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« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2012, 03:42:12 PM »

I have just ordered Z2105+Z2103+dys 461.I am  albanian..... Fega  FTDNA
Dys 461= 11


Geni, unfortunately when you ordered your tests I wasn’t able to write to you, because your tests are probably useless. Belonging you to the “Albanian cluster” (or the “Balkan cluster “as I called it: in fact were Argiedude and me to discover it), you are very likely not only DYS461=11 but also Z2103 and Z2105+.
Certainly would be more useful to find that Risso from Liguria I extracted from SMGF and put on ySearch and I supposed the Italian ancestor of the “Balkan cluster” and to test him.

Posso sapere qualcosa in  piu  del  Z2103+Z2105 ?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 03:44:21 PM by geni » Logged

Y-DNA : R1b1a2a1 L23+L150+ ,Z2103+,Z2105+-L51 -L310-P312,-U106
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2012, 04:14:29 AM »

Posso sapere qualcosa in  piu  del  Z2103+Z2105 ?

Caro Fega, ti scrivo in Italiano visto che me lo hai chiesto in Italiano. So che stai in Francia e, conoscendo il Francese, capisci meglio l’Italiano dell’Inglese. Z2103 e Z2105 sono stati trovati nel Progetto Mille Genomi. Sembra che essi siano equivalenti, visto che nessuno è stato trovato disgiunto per questi due SNPs. Essi si collocano sotto L23, e sembra che L150 non sia affidabile. Sotto L23* (non ancora trovato, visto che dovremmo trovare un L23+/L51-/Z2103 e Z2105-) ci sono appunto L51 e Z2103/Z2105. Sotto Z2103/Z2104 ci sono L277 oppure L584.
Tu, l’”Albanian/Balkan cluster”, e noi occidentali siamo soprattutto Z2103/Z2105+ ma L277- e L584-. Sembra che gli L23 orientali siano in gran parte non solo Z2103/Z2105+ ma anche L277+ oppure L584+. Qualcuno ha anche degli SNPs sotto L584+.
E’ per questo che io mi attendo di trovare uno Z2103/Z2105- fra gli L23+/L51- soprattutto nell’Europa Occidentale, dove secondo la mia teoria questo aplogruppo si è formato. E’ anche possibile che questo L23* non esista, come non abbiamo ancora trovato un P297*, e che questo nucleo originario sia sopravvissuto solo negli L51+. Vedremo.

Mirupashim edhe ja kalofsha sa më mirë, Gioiello
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Maliclavelli


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geni
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« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2012, 07:13:53 AM »

Posso sapere qualcosa in  piu  del  Z2103+Z2105 ?

Caro Fega, ti scrivo in Italiano visto che me lo hai chiesto in Italiano. So che stai in Francia e, conoscendo il Francese, capisci meglio l’Italiano dell’Inglese. Z2103 e Z2105 sono stati trovati nel Progetto Mille Genomi. Sembra che essi siano equivalenti, visto che nessuno è stato trovato disgiunto per questi due SNPs. Essi si collocano sotto L23, e sembra che L150 non sia affidabile. Sotto L23* (non ancora trovato, visto che dovremmo trovare un L23+/L51-/Z2103 e Z2105-) ci sono appunto L51 e Z2103/Z2105. Sotto Z2103/Z2104 ci sono L277 oppure L584.
Tu, l’”Albanian/Balkan cluster”, e noi occidentali siamo soprattutto Z2103/Z2105+ ma L277- e L584-. Sembra che gli L23 orientali siano in gran parte non solo Z2103/Z2105+ ma anche L277+ oppure L584+. Qualcuno ha anche degli SNPs sotto L584+.
E’ per questo che io mi attendo di trovare uno Z2103/Z2105- fra gli L23+/L51- soprattutto nell’Europa Occidentale, dove secondo la mia teoria questo aplogruppo si è formato. E’ anche possibile che questo L23* non esista, come non abbiamo ancora trovato un P297*, e che questo nucleo originario sia sopravvissuto solo negli L51+. Vedremo.

Mirupashim edhe ja kalofsha sa më mirë, Gioiello

Allora Fega =    461=11 ,Z2103+Z2105+ .Uaauu avevi ragione  Gioiello......adesso ho visto  gli altri risultati
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Jarman
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« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2012, 08:04:55 AM »

New Results:

Robinson/Robbins sample 37486 is now Z2105+

Previously tested L584-

FWIW:  Dys461=11,  DYS425=null,  YCAII=18-23

Now where in Scotland did their ancestor live and how did he get there?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 12:47:06 PM by Jarman » Logged
Terry Barton
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« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2012, 09:04:46 AM »

This is an English language based Forum.  Anyone desiring to conduct discussions in another language should find another Forum.

Gioiello, Please translate the two recent posts into English, so that all may read, or remove them. 

Otherwise, i will remove them.  Thanks, Terry
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2012, 10:03:36 AM »

Geni, can you add more details to your paternal ancestor's name. Here is a good example from one of your fellow Z2105+ members:

Pietro Stasi, b. 1854, Potenza, Italy
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« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2012, 11:22:05 AM »

This is an English language based Forum.  Anyone desiring to conduct discussions in another language should find another Forum.

Gioiello, Please translate the two recent posts into English, so that all may read, or remove them.  

Otherwise, i will remove them.  Thanks, Terry

I have written to Fega in Italians because he asked me in Italian and, of course, when I write in Italian, which is my mother tongue, I use a language very different from when I (try to) write in English, which I don’t know at the same level than Italian. Anyway…

Dear Fega, I write to you in Italian seen that you asked me in Italian. I know that you live in France and, knowing French, you understand better Italian than English. Z2103 and Z2105 have been found in the 1KGP. It seems that they are at the same level, seen that nobody has been found disjoined for these two SNPs. They are put under L23, and it seems that L150 isn’t reliable. Under L23* (not yet found so far, seen that we should find a L23+/L51-/Z2103 and Z2105-) there are just L51 and Z2103/Z2105. Under Z2103/Z2105 there are L277 or L584.
You, the “Albanian/Balkan cluster”, and we Western Europeans are above all Z2103/Z2105+ but L277- and L584-. It seems the Eastern L23 are above all not only Z2103/Z2105+ but also L277+ or L584+. Someone gets also some SNPs under L584+.
It is for this that I expect to find one Z2103/Z2105- amongst the L23+/L51- above all in Western Europe, where my theory presupposes that this haplogroup was born. It is also possible that this L23* doesn’t exist , as we haven’t found a P297* yet, and that this original nucleus has survived only in the L51+. We will see.

Mirupashim edhe ja kalofsha sa më mire (it is Albanian, in English I’d have said Kind Regards), Gioiello

Hope that my translation is in an understandable English.


« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 01:03:58 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2012, 11:40:25 AM »

Geni, can you add more details to your paternal ancestor's name. Here is a good example from one of your fellow Z2105+ members:

Pietro Stasi, b. 1854, Potenza, Italy

Fega probably has some difficulties to write in English, living in France and speaking French beside Albanian, but I think I may answer for him. He belongs to the “Albanian/Balkan cluster” like Ciulla, Arberesh from Xora I Arbereshevet (Sicily), and many others on the “ht 35 FTDNA Project” and in many last papers about Balkan peoples. They have DYS385=11-11 or 10-11, DYS459a=8, DYS446=14 or more. Stasi is an Italian surname, diffused overall in Italy, and doesn’t belong to the Albanian/Balkan cluster.

95875 Pietro Stasi, b 1854, Potenza, Italy Italy R1b1a2a1
12 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 14 14 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-23 15 16 19 17 35-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 21-24 15 10 12 12 15 8 11 22 20 13 13 11 13 11 11 12 12

E12439 FEGA Albania R1b1a2a1
13 24 14 11 10-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 16-16-16-17 12 11 19-23 15 15 17 18 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 9 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 21 20 16 12 11 13 10 11 12 12  
84950 Peter or Pietro Ciulla, b.1880s, Sicily (Arberesh) Italy R1b1a2a
13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-16 11 11 19-23 15 15 18 17 37-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 18 8 12 21 20 16 12 11 13 10 11 12 12                                                                                        
N76544 Andre Kajtazi, b. 19th century, Zym, Prizren, Koso Albania R1b1a2a1
13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 13 13 13 29 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-16-16-17 12 10 19-23 16 15 17 17 36-36 12 12  
E14374 Luan Idrizaj 1850-?Albanian from Gjakova, Kosova Kosovo R1b1a2a1
13 23 14 11 11-11 12 12 13 13 13 30 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 16 15 17 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 12 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 15 12 11 13 10 11 12 12  
162445 George Panopoulos Greece R1b1a2a1
13 24 14 11 10-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 15 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 13-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 17 17 38-39 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 15 12 12 13 10 11 12 12
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 01:04:42 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Wayne Kauffman
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« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2012, 12:24:12 PM »

Still curious as to whether we have any other R-L23 individuals who have a Geno 2.0 test on order.
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« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2012, 02:14:13 PM »

Thank You!
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2012, 12:19:13 PM »

Gioiello, congratulations on your Z2105+ results! It will be interesting to see where the line of demarcation is for L51 and Z2105 lineages. Do you have any close matches with the other Z2105+ kits?

You ask me which could be the R-L23 candidate for Z2105-. We are seeing that the R-L23 tested so far are all Z2105+, and the Western European ones are also L277- and L584-, whereas the Eastern ones are above all L277+ or L584+, then not ancestors of L51.

Some years ago I found on SMGF and put on ySearch Risso (Pra, Genova, Italy), ySearch EK3WY, I interpreted like the far ancestor of the Albanian/Balkan cluster. These are his values for SMGF (43 markers format):

14 23 14 11 11-11 12 13 13 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 30 15-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 12 12 10 11 12 23 10 13 12 12 13 30 24

Very close to him is this Beecham from the Isles (ySearch TN2ZH):

14 23 14 11 11-11 12 14 12 14 13 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 13 12 12 11 12 23 10 13 12 12 12 30 24

They belong to the same cluster, but of course they may be separated from thousands of years, the time of expansion from Italy to the Isles.

They are R-L23 (see *DYS461=11, mutated in Risso to 10 and in Beecham to 12) and they presupposes also DYS393=13 like the Albanian/Balkan cluster, mutated in both to 14. Interesting is their DYS464=15-16-16-17, which presupposes:

14-15-16-18 to 14-15-16-17 to 15-15-16-17

From this asset they had 15-16-16-17, whereas the ancestor of the subclades from L51 to the others had 15-15-17-17.

We find this asset also in N24769 from India, difficult to think that the ancestor was there, given the negligible number of R-L23 there, better a migration from West.

Of course I may be not sure that these are L23+/Z2105-, but perhaps it would merit to test someone of this cluster.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2012, 12:37:20 PM »

Gioiello, congratulations on your Z2105+ results! It will be interesting to see where the line of demarcation is for L51 and Z2105 lineages. Do you have any close matches with the other Z2105+ kits?

You ask me which could be the R-L23 candidate for Z2105-. We are seeing that the R-L23 tested so far are all Z2105+, and the Western European ones are also L277- and L584-, whereas the Eastern ones are above all L277+ or L584+, then not ancestors of L51.

Some years ago I found on SMGF and put on ySearch Risso (Pra, Genova, Italy), ySearch EK3WY, I interpreted like the far ancestor of the Albanian/Balkan cluster. These are his values for SMGF (43 markers format):

14 23 14 11 11-11 12 13 13 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 30 15-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 12 12 10 11 12 23 10 13 12 12 13 30 24

Very close to him is this Beecham from the Isles (ySearch TN2ZH):

14 23 14 11 11-11 12 14 12 14 13 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 13 12 12 11 12 23 10 13 12 12 12 30 24

They belong to the same cluster, but of course they may be separated from thousands of years, the time of expansion from Italy to the Isles.

They are R-L23 (see *DYS461=11, mutated in Risso to 10 and in Beecham to 12) and they presupposes also DYS393=13 like the Albanian/Balkan cluster, mutated in both to 14. Interesting is their DYS464=15-16-16-17, which presupposes:

14-15-16-18 to 14-15-16-17 to 15-15-16-17

From this asset they had 15-16-16-17, whereas the ancestor of the subclades from L51 to the others had 15-15-17-17.

We find this asset also in N24769 from India, difficult to think that the ancestor was there, given the negligible number of R-L23 there, better a migration from West.

Of course I may be not sure that these are L23+/Z2105-, but perhaps it would merit to test someone of this cluster.


I'm trying to understand what is going on here with DSY393.  I had thought the L51+ became DYS393=13 while L23* remained DYS393=12. Shouldn't this pattern continue to hold true with Z2105+?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2012, 12:53:54 PM »

A little search on YHRD:
3 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 12 12 14 19 17 17 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 12 12 14 19 17 17 23 12 19 22 13 12 18 10 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 12 12 15 19 15 17 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 12 13 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 13 13 15 19 14 17 24 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>

2 of 1476 United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America
1 of 208 Sao Paulo State, Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
1 of 49 Idaho, USA [Basque] Eurasian - European - Western European North America
1 of 100 Cape Town, South Africa [European-English] Eurasian - European Africa
1 of 97 Birmingham, United Kingdom [English] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 275 Hamburg, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 653 Buenos Aires, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America

1 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 12 12 14 19 17 17 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 12 12 14 19 17 17 23 12 19 22 13 12 18 10 >>

1 of 49 Idaho, USA [Basque] Eurasian - European - Western European North America
1 of 1475 United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America

The closest to Beecham is this guy, with his values but with probably the ancestor DYS389=13-29 we find also in Risso:
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 14 11,11 12 12 15 19 15 17 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 1475 United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America

This American comes from the neighbourhood of Coffeyville (Kansas).
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« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2012, 01:00:22 PM »

I'm trying to understand what is going on here with DSY393.  I had thought the L51+ became DYS393=13 while L23* remained DYS393=12. Shouldn't this pattern continue to hold true with Z2105+?

Of course we don't know. All these samples belong to the paragroup of R-L23* and we have to test all them, hoping to find some L23+/Z2105-. I have made some hypotheses, trying to find which haplotype probably descend from the closest group from which comes the ancestor of R-L51+. Of course being R-L51 above all Italian and expanded to France and the Isles I think that we'll find this sample here, anyway I think in Western Europe.
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« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2012, 10:19:18 AM »

I'm trying to understand what is going on here with DSY393.  I had thought the L51+ became DYS393=13 while L23* remained DYS393=12. Shouldn't this pattern continue to hold true with Z2105+?

Of course we don't know. All these samples belong to the paragroup of R-L23* and we have to test all them, hoping to find some L23+/Z2105-. I have made some hypotheses, trying to find which haplotype probably descend from the closest group from which comes the ancestor of R-L51+. Of course being R-L51 above all Italian and expanded to France and the Isles I think that we'll find this sample here, anyway I think in Western Europe.

However we do know that some are Z2105 L277+ L584+ and L277- L584- therefore there must be yet undiscovered line/lines.
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« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2012, 10:26:11 AM »

I was told by a Family Tree DNA administrator that I may test positive for Z2105.  I ordered the test last week.  Awaiting results. 

If I test positive, where should I go next - L584?  L277?

Will these tests be able to tell me further where my ancestors came from? 
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« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2012, 12:08:09 PM »

I was told by a Family Tree DNA administrator that I may test positive for Z2105.  I ordered the test last week.  Awaiting results.  

If I test positive, where should I go next - L584?  L277?

Will these tests be able to tell me further where my ancestors came from?  

I would first compare your str markers slow/medium/fast mutations  with others in z2105 to get a rough idea. Are you listed on ysearch?

For example, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, take my ideas with a grain of salt; so do your own research, I have noticed the following.

393-.00076  slow
390-.00311  medium
19(394)-.00151 medium
391-.00265 medium
385-.00226 medium
426-.00009 slow
388-.00022 slow
439-.00477 medium
398I-.00186 medium
392-.00052 slow
389II-.00242 medium
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 12:18:47 PM by acekon » Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
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