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Author Topic: Subclades of R-L23 (From Rootsweb)  (Read 4520 times)
Richard Rocca
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« on: September 19, 2012, 04:54:56 PM »

I am reproducing this here as it is extremely important and has not received a single response on Rootsweb. Clearly VV should post here where the R1b topics never sleep...

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-09/1347884417

===================================

From: Vincent Vizachero <vincent@vizachero.com>
Subject: [DNA] Subclades of R-L23
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:20:17 -0400

Last Spring Vince and Greg identified two new SNPs of potential interest to men in haplogroup R-L23: Z2103 and Z2105.

As a result of testing our project participants, we can see that Z2103 and Z2105 are so far phylogentically equivalent and that R-Z2105 is a brother clade to R-L51.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new

Moreover, so far everyone who is known to be L23+ and L51- who tested Z2105 was found to be derived (positive) for it. That is, for the moment it appears that there will be no more R-L23*.

Furthermore, FTDNA has got its primers for L277 working so that we can confirm that both L277 and L584 are subclades of R-Z2105.

And finally, the results for Z2105 have given us additional data which suggest that L150 is not phylogenetically reliable or useful.

R-L23 participants who want complete knowledge of their haplogroup should test both L51 and Z2105. Kits that turn out to be Z2105+ should consider ordering L277 and L584.

However, both L277 and L584 have varying frequencies according to geography. For example, few men with British Isles ancestry are turning up positive for either SNP whereas many (in some cases most) men with SW Asian (or Jewish) ancestry are turning up positive. Negative results may still prove to be useful data, nonetheless.

Vince

===================================

If you didn't catch it, early testing points to L23* possibly being uncommon. Why is that important? Well for one thing, if we find a pocket of L23(xL51,Z2105), it could point to a possible area of L51/Z2105 branching. Also, L51 versus Z2105 variance will become very significant.
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2012, 05:06:34 PM »

If you didn't catch it, early testing points to L23* possibly being uncommon. Why is that important? Well for one thing, if we find a pocket of L23(xL51,Z2105), it could point to a possible area of L51/Z2105 branching. Also, L51 versus Z2105 variance will become very significant.

I agree it is important, but we just have to see the results. It could be not much more than moving the "bulge" in the snake over a bit, but if there is a good division or two created it makes things like interclade calculations possible plus the tracking true L23* folks.  Hopefully, this is in Geno 2.0.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 06:34:28 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2012, 06:21:26 PM »

Thank you Richard. I had missed the post on Rootsweb.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2012, 12:00:17 AM »

   
Nothing new. These questions have been discussed here in their all implications:


About Z2103/Z2105 and L150, L584, L277 etc.
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2012, 04:38:42 AM »

I have just ordered Z2105 for me. I expect to be positive, but we'll see. As I have said in the other thread, beeing the Eastern R-L23* mostly L277+ and L584+, then Z2105+, I think that Z2105- will be found in Italy or in Europe.

As you can see, "Adam" R-L23* was very far from the European subclades:

32700 Adam (wife: Eve). 4000 to 3070 Grdn Eden, Israel R1b1a2a
12 23 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-14-15-17 11 11 19-23 15 16 17 17 37-38 12 12 11 9 16-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 17 8 11 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 33 15 9 17 13 26 26 19 12 10 12 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 11 12 23 14 10 10 19 15 19 13 24 17 12 16 24 12 24 18 10 14 19 9 12 11

H1614 Antonio del Badia (1449-?) Castelfiorentino (Firenze, Italy) R1b1a2a1
12 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 12 29 16 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 14-14-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 19 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-24 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 32 15 9 16 11 25 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 12 14 24 14 10   9 20 15 19 14 23 18 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 18 9 11 11

Antonio del Badia is of course my ancestor of the 15th century.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2012, 07:55:27 AM »

I have just ordered Z2105 for me...

Excellent. I added a new group in the Italy project.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 07:57:54 AM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2012, 02:28:58 PM »

Dodecad K7b has already shown higher frequencies of SW Asian component "Southern" in Yemeni Jews 67% and British_D 11.9% compared to Balochi 8.5% and Polish 6.8% for example. It will be interesting to see if there is a pattern, North,South,East ,West L277+ and L584+ versus L277- and L584-
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 02:29:22 PM by acekon » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2012, 01:22:46 AM »

FTDNA is very busy:

Z2105 Z2105 483 12/11/2012
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« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2012, 07:46:57 AM »

FTDNA is very busy:

Z2105 Z2105 483 12/11/2012


So what do these numbers mean? For Z2105, FTDNA has tested 19 and 16 have been derived.
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« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2012, 07:56:28 AM »

FTDNA is very busy:

Z2105 Z2105 483 12/11/2012


So what do these numbers mean? For Z2105, FTDNA has tested 19 and 16 have been derived.
My results will be ready on 11 December 2012. But where are the three ancestral documented? And where do they come from?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 07:57:11 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2012, 08:07:03 AM »

FTDNA is very busy:

Z2105 Z2105 483 12/11/2012


So what do these numbers mean? For Z2105, FTDNA has tested 19 and 16 have been derived.
My results will be ready on 11 December 2012. But where are the three ancestral documented? And where do they come from?

I see, 483 is a batch number. Here are two of the three negatives:

Yakov (Volovansky) c.1780
Dov Ber Fabrikant b.c. 1810 Vetka, Belarus

Both are in the Jewish R1b project. I couldn't find the third in any of the projects I looked at.
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« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2012, 08:12:11 AM »

Whether these are two of them, they are false Z2105-, because they aren’t R-L23+ but R-M269*.
They are above all Jews, the most tested. Remember what Yair Davidyi wrote!



2146 Yakov (Volovansky) c.1780 R1b1a2 R-M269 L23-, L49-, L50-, L51-, L52-, L584-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310-, P311-, P312-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-, Z2105-

226720 Dov Ber Fabrikant b.c. 1810 Vetka, Belarus R1b1a2a1 R-L150 L150+, L277-, Z2105-
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2012, 08:29:39 AM »

Whether these are two of them, they are false Z2105-, because they aren’t R-L23+ but R-M269*.
They are above all Jews, the most tested. Remember what Yair Davidyi wrote!



2146 Yakov (Volovansky) c.1780 R1b1a2 R-M269 L23-, L49-, L50-, L51-, L52-, L584-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310-, P311-, P312-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-, Z2105-

226720 Dov Ber Fabrikant b.c. 1810 Vetka, Belarus R1b1a2a1 R-L150 L150+, L277-, Z2105-


Ok, I see what you mean by Yakov, but why do you think Fabrikant is L23- ? He hasn't been tested for it, probably because he got an L150+ result first which you know now looks unstable.
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« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2012, 09:17:36 AM »

Ok, I see what you mean by Yakov, but why do you think Fabrikant is L23- ? He hasn't been tested for it, probably because he got an L150+ result first which you know now looks unstable.
I have spoken about this in another thread with VV: Fabrikant belongs to the Jewish R-M269*, which is an unique line which descends from an unique person recently introgressed in the Jewish pool. No doubt about this, and also VV hadn't.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 09:19:59 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2012, 04:46:18 PM »

I am reproducing this here as it is extremely important and has not received a single response on Rootsweb. Clearly VV should post here where the R1b topics never sleep...

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-09/1347884417

===================================

From: Vincent Vizachero <vincent@vizachero.com>
Subject: [DNA] Subclades of R-L23
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:20:17 -0400

Last Spring Vince and Greg identified two new SNPs of potential interest to men in haplogroup R-L23: Z2103 and Z2105.

As a result of testing our project participants, we can see that Z2103 and Z2105 are so far phylogentically equivalent and that R-Z2105 is a brother clade to R-L51.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new

Moreover, so far everyone who is known to be L23+ and L51- who tested Z2105 was found to be derived (positive) for it. That is, for the moment it appears that there will be no more R-L23*.

Furthermore, FTDNA has got its primers for L277 working so that we can confirm that both L277 and L584 are subclades of R-Z2105.

And finally, the results for Z2105 have given us additional data which suggest that L150 is not phylogenetically reliable or useful.  ..............

Vince

===================================

If you didn't catch it, early testing points to L23* possibly being uncommon. Why is that important? Well for one thing, if we find a pocket of L23(xL51,Z2105), it could point to a possible area of L51/Z2105 branching. Also, L51 versus Z2105 variance will become very significant.

I'm trying to draw a chart of the higher (earlier) levels of branching within R1b. It is not meant to include every SNP, just provide an overview.

Does this look accurate?
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b_Descendancy_Tree.jpg

I have additional comment on the last statement that I emboldened. If Z2105 ends up entailing all of or almost all of L23xL51, then Z2105's variance on the eastern side of R1b-L23's range will be clearly higher because it would be the same calculation as what L23*'s now is.  Operating against long haplotypes, L23*'s (and therefore possibly Z2105's) STR diversity among people from Anatolia and the Near East would be high. This might be mostly related to Armenians as that is the bias in our eastern R1b-L23 data.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 05:58:07 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2012, 05:28:29 PM »

I am reproducing this here as it is extremely important and has not received a single response on Rootsweb. Clearly VV should post here where the R1b topics never sleep...

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-09/1347884417

===================================

From: Vincent Vizachero <vincent@vizachero.com>
Subject: [DNA] Subclades of R-L23
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:20:17 -0400

Last Spring Vince and Greg identified two new SNPs of potential interest to men in haplogroup R-L23: Z2103 and Z2105.

As a result of testing our project participants, we can see that Z2103 and Z2105 are so far phylogentically equivalent and that R-Z2105 is a brother clade to R-L51.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new

Moreover, so far everyone who is known to be L23+ and L51- who tested Z2105 was found to be derived (positive) for it. That is, for the moment it appears that there will be no more R-L23*.

Furthermore, FTDNA has got its primers for L277 working so that we can confirm that both L277 and L584 are subclades of R-Z2105.

And finally, the results for Z2105 have given us additional data which suggest that L150 is not phylogenetically reliable or useful.  ..............

Vince

===================================

If you didn't catch it, early testing points to L23* possibly being uncommon. Why is that important? Well for one thing, if we find a pocket of L23(xL51,Z2105), it could point to a possible area of L51/Z2105 branching. Also, L51 versus Z2105 variance will become very significant.

I'm trying to draw a chart of the higher (earlier) levels of branching within R1b. It is not meant to include every SNP, just provide an overview.

Does this look accurate?
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-Descendancy_Tree.jpg

I have additional comment on the last statement that I emboldened. If Z2105 ends up entailing all of or almost all of L23xL51, then Z2105's variance on the eastern side of R1b-L23's range will be clearly higher because it would be the same calculation as what L23*'s now is.  Operating against long haplotypes, L23*'s (and therefore possibly Z2105's) STR diversity among people from Anatolia and the Near East would be high. This might be mostly related to Armenians as that is the bias in our eastern R1b-L23 data.

Which makes it all the more interesting that the majority of scholars see Armenians as coming from somewhere like the Balkans and closest tto Greek.  The fact that high diversity is associated with the Armenians, L23 and an IE language it makes it tempting to think if we could locate the pre-Armenia location of Armenia then we would be a step closer to understanding the whole R1b European story.  The other location not associated with Armenian where it has been calculated that L23xL51 has high diversity is Romania.  Perhaps our eye is being to drawn towards Anatolia and the Caucuses due to an intrusive group like the Armenians and we should be looking more northwards.   
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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2012, 05:45:59 PM »

....
If you didn't catch it, early testing points to L23* possibly being uncommon. Why is that important? Well for one thing, if we find a pocket of L23(xL51,Z2105), it could point to a possible area of L51/Z2105 branching. Also, L51 versus Z2105 variance will become very significant.

... I have additional comment on the last statement that I emboldened. If Z2105 ends up entailing all of or almost all of L23xL51, then Z2105's variance on the eastern side of R1b-L23's range will be clearly higher because it would be the same calculation as what L23*'s now is.  Operating against long haplotypes, L23*'s (and therefore possibly Z2105's) STR diversity among people from Anatolia and the Near East would be high. This might be mostly related to Armenians as that is the bias in our eastern R1b-L23 data.

Which makes it all the more interesting that the majority of scholars see Armenians as coming from somewhere like the Balkans and closest tto Greek.  The fact that high diversity is associated with the Armenians, L23 and an IE language it makes it tempting to think if we could locate the pre-Armenia location of Armenia then we would be a step closer to understanding the whole R1b European story.  The other location not associated with Armenian where it has been calculated that L23xL51 has high diversity is Romania.  Perhaps our eye is being to drawn towards Anatolia and the Caucuses due to an intrusive group like the Armenians and we should be looking more northwards.    

I don't know. My biggest complaint about gaps in DNA testing is SE Europe, the Caucasus and Anatolia. I wish one or two of these studies would seriously check these regions out.  

What if they found some several different forms of L51* in one of those place or who knows what?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 05:46:11 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2012, 05:47:12 PM »

Perhaps our eye is being to drawn towards Anatolia and the Caucuses [Caucasus] due to an intrusive group like the Armenians and we should be looking more northwards.    

I've wondered if our eyes are drawn to Armenia because there are a lot of people of Armenian descent in the USA, and that's whose test results are most visible in FTDNA projects.

I've also wondered if anybody has tried talking up this sort of testing in many other US ethnic communities -- especially since they tend to organize around churches (or whatever other way they worship).  The Romanian Orthodox church for the greater Washington DC area is on a route I drive several times a month... just as one example among many.  It's possible in a metropolitan area to test YDNA from known villages, etc. almost anywhere on the globe, if one just sets one's mind to the task.  That's really much easier than trying to deduce (by testing YDNA) the location in the British Isles from which some ancestor arrived in VA in 1623 or so.  It might also be more important.  But AFAIK there's no big money behind any such effort.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 05:50:09 PM by razyn » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2012, 06:24:09 PM »

Perhaps our eye is being to drawn towards Anatolia and the Caucuses [Caucasus] due to an intrusive group like the Armenians and we should be looking more northwards.    

I've wondered if our eyes are drawn to Armenia because there are a lot of people of Armenian descent in the USA, and that's whose test results are most visible in FTDNA projects....

I wouldn't necessarily say are eyes our drawn to them, but just that many did immigrate to America and therefore became more likely consumer DNA testers. I grew up with friends that were Armenian and others that were Lebanese. At the time I thought it was weird that their families moved here but now that I know the history....   it's like the same story over and over again.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 06:25:01 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2012, 06:31:37 PM »


Here is another overview chart just a step or two back on the tree for Hg R.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R_Descendancy_Tree.jpg
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« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2012, 07:30:50 PM »

....
If you didn't catch it, early testing points to L23* possibly being uncommon. Why is that important? Well for one thing, if we find a pocket of L23(xL51,Z2105), it could point to a possible area of L51/Z2105 branching. Also, L51 versus Z2105 variance will become very significant.

... I have additional comment on the last statement that I emboldened. If Z2105 ends up entailing all of or almost all of L23xL51, then Z2105's variance on the eastern side of R1b-L23's range will be clearly higher because it would be the same calculation as what L23*'s now is.  Operating against long haplotypes, L23*'s (and therefore possibly Z2105's) STR diversity among people from Anatolia and the Near East would be high. This might be mostly related to Armenians as that is the bias in our eastern R1b-L23 data.

Which makes it all the more interesting that the majority of scholars see Armenians as coming from somewhere like the Balkans and closest tto Greek.  The fact that high diversity is associated with the Armenians, L23 and an IE language it makes it tempting to think if we could locate the pre-Armenia location of Armenia then we would be a step closer to understanding the whole R1b European story.  The other location not associated with Armenian where it has been calculated that L23xL51 has high diversity is Romania.  Perhaps our eye is being to drawn towards Anatolia and the Caucuses due to an intrusive group like the Armenians and we should be looking more northwards.    

I don't know. My biggest complaint about gaps in DNA testing is SE Europe, the Caucasus and Anatolia. I wish one or two of these studies would seriously check these regions out.  

What if they found some several different forms of L51* in one of those place or who knows what?

This is the objective of the BEAN Bridging the European and Anatolian Neolithic project. As they are using NGS and aDNA we should get the best data to date from the region.

"The common focus of the project partners centers around questions associated with the origin of first farmer settlements, which were established some 8,000 years ago in West Anatolia and the Balkans. Where did they come from? Were they migrants from the Middle East? Are they our ancestors? "

"She will analyze DNA from the bones of the last hunter-gatherers and the first settled farmers in the region between West Anatolia and the Balkans using the new cutting-edge technology of Next Generation Sequencing (NGS). "

https://sites.google.com/site/beanresearchnetwork/

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2012, 09:51:42 PM »


I've wondered if our eyes are drawn to Armenia because there are a lot of people of Armenian descent in the USA, and that's whose test results are most visible in FTDNA projects.


Not necessarily. Armenia is interesting because Myres found the Caucasus to have the highest L23* variance.
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« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2012, 01:05:06 AM »

There are going to be more  branches besides z2105+ L584 /L277.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 10:33:08 AM by acekon » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2012, 10:56:35 AM »

There are going to be more  branches besides z2105+ L584 /L277.

Do we know of any that are ready to put on the ISOGG tree.
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« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2012, 07:09:11 PM »

Do we have a listing anywhere with the number of individuals between L23 and L51 who have Geno 2.0 kits ordered? 
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