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Peter M
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« Reply #100 on: October 27, 2012, 09:35:17 AM »

BTW, anybody in for a little speculation: who are the, say, 10 "oldest" P312+ with a known geographical origin ? I will add pins for those as well.
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gtc
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« Reply #101 on: October 27, 2012, 11:02:48 AM »

I have only one y-line and I dont know how you ended up with more than one.

One's maternal grandfather may not share the same hg, etc.
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Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
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« Reply #102 on: October 27, 2012, 11:37:52 AM »


Remember, this is not a scientific sample and is probably biased towards American immigration sources....

No, this is definitely not a scientific sampl
e. It is heavily biased torwards British Isles and a few origins are remarkable

What do you men "no" ?   That is just what I said, "this is not a scientific sample." What are you disagreeing on?

Please don't shoot the messenger for the message. I don't change surnames or try to reconcile them with the origins. In some cases, the surnames are known adopted surnames. In some cases the surnames are mistakenly for the contact, not the lineage.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 11:39:39 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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Peter M
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« Reply #103 on: October 27, 2012, 11:40:28 AM »


Remember, this is not a scientific sample and is probably biased towards American immigration sources....

No, this is definitely not a scientific sampl
e. It is heavily biased torwards British Isles and a few origins are remarkable

What do you men "no" ?   That is just what I said, "this is not a scientific sample." What are you disagreeing on?

I agree completely to what you said, the word "no" was ambiguous, I guess. $:-)

It would be nice to have some more Continental data

BTW, I added a link to the last message on the previous page; don't miss it and tell me what you (all) think.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 11:42:09 AM by Peter M » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #104 on: October 27, 2012, 11:51:02 AM »

I have only one y-line and I dont know how you ended up with more than one.

I have two grandfathers, four great-grandfathers, eight great-grandfathers, etc. I love my mother's father no less than my father's father and I've inherited just as much of my looks, heritage, etc. from my mother's father as from my father's father.  My mother's paternal lineage, etc. are important to me and a part of me. The Y chromosome is just one small element that is just a good tracker, just like mtDNA can be a tracker.

Quote from: stoneman

You have the right to write about any haplogroup but you have to be careful not to step on other peoples toes.

I will not be bullied into not arguing a point because of concerns of a person who may feel victimized. Do we have to walk on eggshells? Disagreement is fine, personal attacks distract from the discussion. I try not to make arguments that attack the person, i.e. ad hominem, rather than an opposing point of view. Notice, I never criticize a person's stated pedigree and I think I stay from personal questions or characterizing another poster negatively. I may characterize another poster's arguments negatively. There is a difference.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 11:58:54 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #105 on: October 27, 2012, 12:04:57 PM »

It would be nice to have some more Continental data

BTW, I added a link to the last message on the previous page; don't miss it and tell me what you (all) think.

I agree, but we just need a lot more data period. I think the whole area around the Black Sea from SE Europe to Caucasia and the Levant would be lovely place to survey.

I like to look at the Google maps, but I think they can be misleading until we build enough data to calculate frequencies, at the least, rather than just absolute numbers.
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Peter M
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« Reply #106 on: October 27, 2012, 12:12:16 PM »

It would be nice to have some more Continental data

BTW, I added a link to the last message on the previous page; don't miss it and tell me what you (all) think.

I agree, but we just need a lot more data period. I think the whole area around the Black Sea from SE Europe to Caucasia and the Levant would be lovely place to survey.

I like to look at the Google maps, but I think they can be misleading until we build enough data to calculate frequencies, at the least, rather than just absolute numbers.

As you probably know by now, for various reason I don't like the per-country approach of variance or frequency much. I don't like variance or frequency at all and countries are too recent an invention to be of much use studying the situation of, say, 4,500 years bp. So, I guess, I prefer Google Maps but with a little more data than we currently have.

Were are we going to get that data ? We can try get the maximum out of the data we have, if a volunteer steps forward to do some coordinate work, but what would then be the next step ??
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 01:10:25 PM by Peter M » Logged
glentane
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« Reply #107 on: October 27, 2012, 01:03:17 PM »

The farmers that built the Court Tombs in Ireland 6000 years ago came from North Eastern Europe.
Really? Who told you that?
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stoneman
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« Reply #108 on: October 27, 2012, 02:20:32 PM »

I have only one y-line and I dont know how you ended up with more than one.

I have two grandfathers, four great-grandfathers, eight great-grandfathers, etc. I love my mother's father no less than my father's father and I've inherited just as much of my looks, heritage, etc. from my mother's father as from my father's father.  My mother's paternal lineage, etc. are important to me and a part of me. The Y chromosome is just one small element that is just a good tracker, just like mtDNA can be a tracker.

Quote from: stoneman

You have the right to write about any haplogroup but you have to be careful not to step on other peoples toes.

I will not be bullied into not arguing a point because of concerns of a person who may feel victimized. Do we have to walk on eggshells? Disagreement is fine, personal attacks distract from the discussion. I try not to make arguments that attack the person, i.e. ad hominem, rather than an opposing point of view. Notice, I never criticize a person's stated pedigree and I think I stay from personal questions or characterizing another poster negatively. I may characterize another poster's arguments negatively. There is a difference.


I am not a victim. I will not be bullied.

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #109 on: October 29, 2012, 12:41:43 AM »

I have only one y-line and I dont know how you ended up with more than one.

I have two grandfathers, four great-grandfathers, eight great-grandfathers, etc. I love my mother's father no less than my father's father and I've inherited just as much of my looks, heritage, etc. from my mother's father as from my father's father.  My mother's paternal lineage, etc. are important to me and a part of me. The Y chromosome is just one small element that is just a good tracker, just like mtDNA can be a tracker.

Quote from: stoneman

You have the right to write about any haplogroup but you have to be careful not to step on other peoples toes.

I will not be bullied into not arguing a point because of concerns of a person who may feel victimized. Do we have to walk on eggshells? Disagreement is fine, personal attacks distract from the discussion. I try not to make arguments that attack the person, i.e. ad hominem, rather than an opposing point of view. Notice, I never criticize a person's stated pedigree and I think I stay from personal questions or characterizing another poster negatively. I may characterize another poster's arguments negatively. There is a difference.

I am not a victim. I will not be bullied.

Excellent! Then I will not have to worry about stepping on your toes if I disagree with an argument you are making. I promise to keep away from personal back and forth, like this. Let's go back to the topic, please.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #110 on: October 29, 2012, 12:45:29 AM »


To that point, Italy seems to not have been impacted by a major L48+ migration because unlike in most areas of Europe, L48 is much less common. We tested the following L48- kits a few months ago and all are now U106+ L48- Z156-   

179540   Giacomo Zeni, b. 1630 Verona, Italy
141915   Berardo Cesaroni, b.c. 1575, Cartoceto, Pesaro and Urbina, Italy
N12646   Veturio Cesaroni, b.1880, Terni, Umbria, Italy

One point in time, I thought one of the Cesaroni's might actually be Z18+ and on my suggestion he ordered a test. After all, there are strong links between southern Germany and northern Italy (more than both just liking fast cars). Unfortunately he turned out Z18-.

Italy is an interesting case that illustrates my point rather nicely. L48 is another U106 sub-clade but has a distribution that's different from the others. It's a good candidate for further serious research, I guess.


U106 in Italy is an interesting case. As has been noted, it does not have a run of the mill mix of U106 types.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #111 on: October 29, 2012, 01:00:00 AM »

U106 in Italy is an interesting case. As has been noted, it does not have a run of the mill mix of U106 types.

I suggested to Cesaroni (Francesco) to test himself for Z381. Anyway, if so, he would always be one of the most ancient R-U106 subclades.
I am following his case, and that of the Brazilian Zeni, from many years, from when the most part of you thought that U106 was in Italy certainly a recent German introgression and I was theorizing the “Italian Refugium”.
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Maliclavelli


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gtc
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« Reply #112 on: October 30, 2012, 06:40:55 AM »

U106 in Italy is an interesting case. As has been noted, it does not have a run of the mill mix of U106 types.

On that point, there's a mystery man Mr P107 hanging around all by himself at the top of U106. I gather that Mr P107 is from Lombardy, and that's all we know about him.

It would be great if Dr Hammer could tell us more about him and it would be fantastic if we could get him tested further.
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« Reply #113 on: February 01, 2013, 01:32:19 PM »

Hi all.

I was contacted by he administrator of the Z18 project and invited to join their group. After joining it I have ordered a Z18 test and now I'm waiting results.

They seem to be confident that I will come up positive and in the site dedicated to Z18 (http://l257.groenebeverbv.nl/) I was put in an "experimental Berkshire cluster" whatever it means.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 01:37:01 PM by F.E.C. » Logged
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« Reply #114 on: March 01, 2013, 06:47:31 AM »

Hello,

eventually I turned out Z-18+. Here's a summary of my SNP results up to now: Z18+ U106+ M269+ Z156- U198- U152- P107- L48- L257-

Can you please provide any information sources about my subclade?

Also, should I take any more SNP tests or is it the end of the road for me?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 06:51:52 AM by F.E.C. » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #115 on: March 01, 2013, 04:04:05 PM »

Hello,

eventually I turned out Z-18+. Here's a summary of my SNP results up to now: Z18+ U106+ M269+ Z156- U198- U152- P107- L48- L257-

Can you please provide any information sources about my subclade?

Also, should I take any more SNP tests or is it the end of the road for me?

I asked you to test yourself for Z381, which was the most ancient of your line, but Z18 is at the same level like ancientness: At this point you should test yourself for Z14 and Z372, being negative for L257. If you will result negative, you’ll be the most ancient also of this line, and that Z18 is come from North Sea shore could be discussed.

•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a   M405/S21/U106
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a1   L217.1
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a2   S493/Z18, Z19
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a2*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a2a   Z14
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a2a*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a2a1   S375/Z372
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a2a1*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a2a1a   L257/S186
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a3   S263/Z381
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a3*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a3a   S264/Z156
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a3a*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a3a1   S376/Z305, Z306, Z307
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a3a1*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a3a1a   L1/S26
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a3a1b   P89.2
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a3a1c   L128
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a3b   Z301
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a3b*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a3b1   M467/S29/U198
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a3b2   L48/S162
•   •

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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #116 on: March 02, 2013, 12:17:54 PM »

I asked you to test yourself for Z381, which was the most ancient of your line, but Z18 is at the same level like ancientness: At this point you should test yourself for Z14 and Z372, being negative for L257. If you will result negative, you’ll be the most ancient also of this line, and that Z18 is come from North Sea shore could be discussed.

•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a   M405/S21/U106
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a1   L217.1
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a2   S493/Z18, Z19
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a2*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a2a   Z14
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a2a*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a2a1   S375/Z372
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a2a1*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a2a1a   L257/S186
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a3   S263/Z381
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a3*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a3a   S264/Z156
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a3a*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a3a1   S376/Z305, Z306, Z307
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a3a1*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a3a1a   L1/S26
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a3a1b   P89.2
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a3a1c   L128
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a3b   Z301
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a3b*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a3b1   M467/S29/U198
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a3b2   L48/S162
•   •

Molte grazie, Maliclavelli. As suggested, I have just ordered Z14 and Z372.

According to FTDNA's R-Z18 project, most of the Z18+ Z14- are continetal Europeans from Central Europe (Switzerland, France, Germany, Belgium...), while Z372+ men seem to come from further up north.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 12:18:37 PM by F.E.C. » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #117 on: March 02, 2013, 12:33:15 PM »

According to FTDNA's R-Z18 project, most of the Z18+ Z14- are continetal Europeans from Central Europe (Switzerland, France, Germany, Belgium...), while Z372+ men seem to come from further up north.

Many thanks, Francesco. Then the line of R-Z18 is from South to North along the Rhine. I haven’t studied these haplotypes, and now that ySearch is prohibited, it is more difficult, but that the origin is Southwards (i.e. Italy and the Italian Refugium) shouldn’t be discarded.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #118 on: March 25, 2013, 05:25:03 AM »

As predicted by Peter M. Op den Velde Boots of the FT-DNA R-Z18 and Subgroups Project I have come up Z18+ and Z372+.

According to Douglas Fisher I belong to the so-called called Berkshire Cluster.

Could anyone please tell me what are the latest estimates of the age of Z372?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #119 on: March 25, 2013, 09:41:06 AM »

As predicted by Peter M. Op den Velde Boots of the FT-DNA R-Z18 and Subgroups Project I have come up Z18+ and Z372+.

According to Douglas Fisher I belong to the so-called called Berkshire Cluster.

Could anyone please tell me what are the latest estimates of the age of Z372?

Francesco, I don’t know if your origin could be from North, but amongst these people you have

DYS487=15 (all the others=13: MR 0.00079)
DYS458=16, the others =17/18
DYS449=28 (the others 29/30) etc.

It is possible that there is somewhere in Europe a link amongst you you derive closely from, but the link with these people, also taking in consideration the mutations around the modal etc., could be of thousands of years.

P.S. At this point an upgrade to 111 markers could be very useful.

« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 09:44:59 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #120 on: March 26, 2013, 09:54:55 AM »

I guess that we shall see. Grazie Maliclavelli.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 09:55:09 AM by F.E.C. » Logged
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