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Author Topic: Y-DNA of the Sinclair/St. Clair Earls of Caithness & Rosslyn via John Thurso  (Read 1340 times)
Diana
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« on: September 16, 2012, 12:28:08 PM »

I am breaking this up in a few seperate posts as it is too long to fit into one post.  From Shawn Sinclair, my husband,

"Greetings to everyone. As some of you know my wife and I have been researching the Sinclair DNA for some 8 years now and have had many enjoyable conversations with a great number of you discussing the topic of the original line of Sinclair from Rosslyn, such as who they may have been, where they went, and what they might look like genetically. This has caused a great deal of heated exchanges which was not our intent, we simply wanted to know.

I am currently writing a book on the matter with much more detail, and will be out soon, but no time will be given as more information is still currently coming in.

So far we have had a great many testing using DNA, so simply the issue of this is to determine what participants match and how close. We now have confirmation of what that original looks like using DNA, and I will not get technical, as that would take too long in this email.

So with that said, here is what we now know. This is an article written by Nina Sinclair which explains the lineages of the Caithness, Shetland and Orkney Sinclair's and their connections and relation to one another through DNA and documents. Thank you Nina for your hard work on research, information and having the participant Deep Clade tested with which I will be releasing at the end of your article that will show without question what the original line of Sinclair looks like using DNA and his name his pedigree is without question and you will see why with Nina's article. I would also like to thank Diana Sinclair my wife for her hard work, research, and patience as well as Robert Sinclair for his friendship, dedication, research and advice, true soldiers in the midst of much opposition.

"+S21 Lineage


These S21+ families descend from Sinclair's in the Caithness, Orkney and Shetland areas and a few of them have speculative family stories of descent from the Sinclair Earls of Caithness and Orkney. Although descent from the earldom lines cannot be conclusively proven through paper trails, the collective information, such as the geographical connections, family stories, DNA and with the name matching within this group all pointing in the same direction, one has to come to the conclusion that this could possibly be the case. The DNA results are of the R1b1b2 haplogroup with subclade +S21 or U106. Some have tested further still and now are classified as Z346* which is as far as can be tested at this moment in time.



Drs David Faux and Jim Wilson have both done extensive studies of population genetics and Dr Jim Wilson of Edinburgh University worked tirelessly to isolate the S21 marker. Following that breakthrough and coupled with his testing of numerous Orcadians, including Sinclair's, who overwhelmingly show this marker, he has reached the conclusion that at the very least in Orkney, S21+ is the earldom line indicator: “When thought about scientifically, in the absence of emotion and vested interests, there is no other way for one cluster of types to become the predominant one, unless it is the founder type, and that should equate to the earldom type as the first Sinclair Earl brought the name to the north.” Given this objective scientific evidence, coupled with the paper trails of the participants below who all connect to the Sinclair earldom area whether in Caithness, Orkney or Shetland, it seems irrefutable that what we are seeing here are descendants of the Sinclair Earls.



At first glance, our participants do not seem to connect with each other; but the areas their earliest ancestors came from are traditionally known to have been settled by the Sinclair family after their expansion from Roslin to Caithness in the 14th century and these modern day Sinclair's are the descendants of those expansionists who helped shape the Sinclair Earldom. The earliest record of Sinclair presence in the north of Scotland is contained in a letter from King Robert the Bruce to the baillies of the King of Norway in Orkney, recorded in the Diplomatarium Norvegicum and dated 4th August 1321: “Now whereas we understand that Alexander Brown, our enemy, convicted of the crime of treason, has been received by you recently within your bailliary of Orkney and instantly required from you by Sir Henry of Sinclair, knight, our Baillie in Caithness, and that you have unduly refused to deliver him, contrary to the aforesaid treaty.....” This Sir Henry Sinclair of Roslin was one of the signatories on the Declaration of Arbroath on 6th April 1320; the father of Sir William Sinclair who died with Sir James Douglas whilst battling the Moors at Teba de Ardales in Spain in 1330, on the way to take the Bruce’s heart to the Holy land. From that time onwards, the Sinclair family were gradually gaining more of a foothold in the north. In 1363, William’s son, Sir Henry Sinclair of Roslin as an heir of Malise, Earl of Strathearne obtained a grant of Orkney from Haakon VI, King of Norway. The following year, Alexander St. Clair and Thomas St. Clair were in Kirkwall, Orkney, the latter being the Governor of Orkney "representing the King of Norway" - most likely Sir Henry Sinclair’s uncles, protecting his interests whilst he was absent. From that point on, the Sinclair family put down their roots more permanently in the north and once Henry was installed as Earl in 1379, Scots from the mainland flooded into Orkney and Shetland on the coat-tails of the Sinclair family. "

  Continued...




« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 01:09:04 PM by Diana » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3 U152+ Z56+ Z144/Z145/Z146+ P312+ U106- M228.2- M160- M126- L4- L21- L2- L196- L176.2- DYS492=14 Roma, Italia.
Diana
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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2012, 12:35:20 PM »

"• Five members of our Caithness group claim descent from Alexander, an illegitimate son of Alexander Sinclair, 9th Earl of Caithness, based on the work of Rev. Alexander MacLean Sinclair’s book, “The Sinclairs of Roslin, Caithness and Goshen” published in 1902. On page 41 he states: “according to Mr Hugh Campbell in Reay, the Sinclairs of Strath-halladale are descended from Alexander Sinclair, tacksman of Strubster in Canisbay” and “Mr Thomas Sinclair, the well-known Caithness historian, maintains that the Alexander Sinclair who married Mary Mackay in 1728 was a son of the ninth Earl of Caithness, and thus belonged to the Murkle family, that he was born about 1705, that his mother was a Mackay, that he was brought up with his mother’s people in Strath-halladale and that he became tacksman of Lambsdale sometime before 1746 and tacksman of Strubster in 1756.” The Bighouse estate in Strath-halladale was owned by the Mackays of Bighouse, a cadet branch of the Mackay clan under their chief, Lord Reay and a close association between the Sinclair families there and the Mackays looks highly likely, as this area was not a traditional home of the Sinclairs; there were only a few Sinclair families recorded there at the time. Whilst in Lambsdale, Alexander married Barbara Campbell from Shurrery in Reay parish in 1746; presumably his second marriage and they had four children whilst living there, before moving on to take up the job of tacksman in Strubster, where they had two more children before Barbara died in 1760 and she was taken home to Reay parish for burial. Alexander died after Barbara although his death date is not inscribed on the gravestone which in itself, is illuminating; it contains two heraldic shields for Sinclair and Campbell: “The dexter shield of Sinclair is quartered by an engrailed cross, 1 and 4 a lumphad, 2 and 3 the lion rampant. The sinister shield is quartered, 1 and 4 a lymphad, 2 and 3 the gyronny of eight associated with Campbell heraldry”. The use of both arms implies both Alexander and Barbara were descended from armigerous families and Thomas Sinclair the Caithness historian, writing in The Celtic Magazine volume 13, added that James Campbell of Shurrery was descended from the armigerous Glenorchy Campbell family and that he was paying £10 10s annual rent for his chief residence at Shurrery. It would seem that Barbara was of the same family, so Alexander had married well.



• Two others from our Caithness group match the above group exactly on 67 markers, but their paper trails do not connect back to Strath-halladale in Reay parish. One has an earliest ancestor born in Clyth in Latheron parish, on the opposite side of Caithness entirely, but his family story is that he descends from an illegitimate son of one of the Sinclairs of Lybster, which would connect him to the Murkle line and the same DNA as Alexander, the 9th Earl of Caithness. The other exact DNA match has an earliest ancestor in Calder, Halkirk parish only a few miles across the parish boundary from Strath-halladale and his family story is that he descends from the Sinclairs of Assery, which would also connect further back to the Sinclairs of Murkle.



• Another member of this Caithness group matching on 65/67 markers, descends from the Sinclair family found at Shurrery in Reay parish and Rev. Alexander MacLean Sinclair states that they descend from Thomas Sinclair who was tacksman of Shurrery, who “likely belonged to the Sinclairs of Dunbeath and Stemster”; that family descend from Alexander, the son of William, 2nd Earl of Caithness. Alexander’s descendants married into the Mackay family in Reay parish, owners of the Bighouse estate there.



• One other member of this group who also matches on 65/67 markers, has an earliest ancestor George, who married in 1783, when he was living in Brabster, near Canisbay in Caithness, two miles away from Strubster, where Alexander Sinclair had been the tacksman. Alexander the tacksman had a son named George in 1758 in Strubster, who could be the very same George.



• We have four members of the lineage who have Shetland connections; two who are related and derive from the same ancestor born before 1728 in Swinister, in Dunrossness and Sandwick parish. The Sinclairs had been landowners in Sandwick since at least 1513, when a Henry Sinclair held nine merks of land in Burraland. This Henry Sinclair “of Sandwick” was a member of the Sinclair family of Brew in Dunrossness, Shetland, who descend from the earldom Sinclair family. It is likely that the earliest Sinclair of this line, Henry Sinclair of Havera, in Burra, Shetland, was either an illegitimate son of Sir David Sinclair of Sumburgh, himself an illegitimate son of Earl William Sinclair of Orkney and Caithness, the William who built Rosslyn Chapel, or, possibly an illegitimate son of Henry, Lord Sinclair, the son of William “the Waster”."

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Diana
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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2012, 12:38:23 PM »

"• A third member can place his earliest ancestor in Houss, in Burra in about 1766 where a landed Sinclair family has been established since a mysterious William Sinclair settled in Shetland. William must have been born about 1480; he fought at the battle of Summerdale alongside the Sinclair family of Warsetter in 1529 and he died sometime after 1539, but that is virtually all that is known about him. No one knows who his parents were, but he and his descendants were prominent landowners, sheriffs and merchant burgesses, marrying into other landed families in Shetland. William’s grandson, Arthur Sinclair of Aith, successfully led the Shetlander’s complaint against Laurence Bruce of Cultmalindie, the half-brother of Robert Stewart, Earl of Orkney, in 1576. This family was also closely allied to the Sinclair family of Brew through marriage.



• Our final Shetland member can trace his earliest ancestor Edward, born about 1720 in Collaster in Unst, the most northerly Shetland Island where the family remained until the late 1800s. A descendant born in 1881, kept a diary wherein he wrote: “About our Sinclairs, (the Sudderhouse Sinclairs) they claim no relationship with the Collaster Sinclairs (the landlord Sinclairs [i.e. the Edward and his descendants]), only they were the same stock. Yes, I understand they came to Shetland with Patrick Stewart round 1600. They came, I was told, from the West side of Caithness [actually east -- just north of Wick] from a place known as Girnie-geo.” Roland St Clair in his book “Saint-Clair of the Isles” published in 1898, includes a note on page 550 about a Shetland family: “The Sinclairs of Kellister and Snarness, a small estate on the shores of St Magnus Bay, Shetland, have a tradition that their forebears escaped from Castles Girnigo and Sinclair by cutting their way from the dungeon floor to the sea, and then fleeing to the Orkneys. The old deed of land situated in Sinclair Bay, [Caithness] was in their possession in 1854 (letter from Robert Sinclair of Gympie, Queensland, a member of this family).” There are Sinclairs recorded at Kellister and at Snarraness in Sandness parish in Shetland right up until very recently and some of them did emigrate to New Zealand and Australia. It is feasible that Edward was a member of this family but there is no concrete evidence to support it once again, due to the lack of records. Given the turbulent times in Caithness in the late 1500s and early 1600s it could be that several Sinclair families fled Caithness for Orkney or Shetland on the coat-tails of Earl Patrick Stewart or even his father, Earl Robert.



• There are also members of this lineage who can trace their forbears to Orkney, the first having his earliest ancestor Peter, living on Stronsay in the late 1790s. His son John moved to a farm near Kirkwall on the mainland and two of his sons, Robert and John, founded the successful Sinclair Tobacco Company in Newcastle, England in 1856. There have been two Shetland Sinclair families holding land on Stronsay for centuries. In 1422, Huip in Stronsay was owned by James Cragie of Huip, who was married to Margaret, the daughter of the first Earl Henry Sinclair. By 1594, David Sinclair of Hunton was living there and he was the grandson of William Sinclair of Houss in Shetland, previously mentioned. David also owned Hunton another estate on the island, which he gave as a marriage gift to his son Edward and his future spouse, Margaret Maxwell, the vicar’s daughter, in 1577. Two other estates on Stronsay, Housby and the island ofAuskerry, were held by the Sinclairs of Strom and Brugh who defintitely descend from Sir William Sinclair of Warsetter’s son, Edward Sinclair of Strom. It is likely the Sinclairs on Stronsay are descendants of either one of these earldom lines.



• Another Orcadian connection has his earliest ancestor marrying in Kirkwall about 1795, so he would presumably have been born about 1770, but his birth was not recorded. Nothing much is known about William except that he built the first pier in Kirkwall around 1809. He does match our Caithness Sinclairs from Strath-halladale on 66/67 markers, which is very close, however, the Sinclairs, along with many other landowners of the time were merchants and also had homes in Kirkwall, the major trading port to Scotland and all points south. It may be that William was a descendant of one of these Kirkwallian merchant families.



• Our final Orcadian Sinclair, Edward, has his roots on Sanday, one of the northern Orkney Islands. There are two routes by which this family may have arrived on Sanday; the first according to J. Storer Clouston, the eminent Orcadian historian in his book, “The History of Orkney” published in 1932, stated that all the Sinclairs on the island descend from Sir William Sinclair of Warsetter, the grandson of Earl William, 3rd Earl of Orkney. From the first Orkney rental in 1502, the Warsetter family had built up large landholdings on Sanday, including Warsetter itself and Sir William was the tacksman for his brother, Henry, Lord Sinclair. The last known of that family line was George, who was living at Holland on Sanday in 1645 which he had inherited from his mother, Alesone Sinclair of Eday. Unfortunately, there are no documents between 1645 and 1750 which would connect the families to the Sinclairs still living on the island to this day. The alternate theory is that the Sinclairs on Sanday descend from the Shetland family from Brew; in the rental of Sanday in 1653, Malcolm Sinclair “laitlie of Rapness “ has lands all over the island and he had a son, also Malcolm listed on the rental as well. This Malcolm of Rapness was the 2 x great-grandson of Henry Sinclair of Havera in Shetland, progenitor of the Sinclair family of Brew; an earldom line, as evidenced by the gravestone of Malcolm’s uncle: “Here lies a man of good repute, James Sinclair of Quendale, a scion of the most noble family of the Earls, who died Jan 29th 1636 in the 56th year of his age.” Henry of Havera’s parentage is unknown; he may have been an illegitimate son of Henry, Lord Sinclair or even Sir David Sinclair of Sumburgh, a son of William, 3rd Earl of Orkney and Caithness, we cannot now be certain, but we do know that several of his descendants held high office in Shetland and had seals and shields on their graves showing the Sinclair engrailed cross. Tantalizingly, a gold signet ring with the Sinclair crest was passed down to each eldest son in Edward’s family as far as WWII when it was lost, along with a wooden box containing two pistols and a gold half-Hunter watch. No one in the family knows what happened to them."


BY NINA SINCLAIR"

  Continued...


 
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Diana
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2012, 12:51:12 PM »

"We now will state that we indeed have the DNA of a member of the Ulbster branch of Sinclair who descends from the 4th Earl Earl of Caithness, and hence the original line from Rosslyn, through Henry I of Orkney and the links are too numerous to list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Sinclair,_1st_Earl_of_Orkney
 



You can verify from our own clan websites.
The name of the participant is John Thurso born John Archibald Sinclair, Viscount Thurso.

I cannot post here their comparisons in markers, but can verify that all match within 4 markers from one another up to 2 markers off from one another making them direct relations.

John Thurso's DNA matches those of all of what we used to call " lineage 4" which all have documented papertrails to Orkney, Shetland and Caithness, Nina's article above verifies this. From this day forward, the Earldom lineage.

I would like to thank the Viscount Thurso for his cooperation and participation in the DNA testing, for without him, we would not have known what the original Sancto Claro line would look like.

We have worked as a unit to provide you all with this information for 8 years and it wasn't without strife, many have oppossed the idea of one line coming from Normandy and settling in Rosslyn, this just isn't so and we know from various sources that there was indeed person's such William (founder of Rosslyn) who indeed did exsist. What would their DNA look like? We now know.

If anyone has further questions, please feel free to contact me or call in to my radio show, called ' The Hidden History Hour' http://www.blogtalkradio.com/sofiatemplar
 



where we will be taking phone calls and chatting about the new discovery of the Sinclair 'Earldom line'. I will be hosting a show for you all in one week and field calls from everyone.

John Thurso matches our participants on 67 markers by 65 out of 67 markers, which makes them extremely close to one another as far as DNA is concerned, in other words, they are related, and their Deep Clade testing is an 'exact' match with all participants being Z1, Z8 and 346 positive. Here for all to see is my final statement.

Sinclair genetic genealogists tend to use 390=24 vs 390=23 as a shorthand for at least ten to twenty other markers which differ between one group of Sinclair Y chromosomes (S21+/U106+) and another. These differ by many SNPs as well as the STR markers.

John Thurso belongs to the S21+ lineage, specifically to the Z346+/S512+, Z343-/S387- subgroup, which also includes many of you with DYS390=23, however his DYS390 happens to have backmutated to 24.
Given that studies by Dr Jim Wilson show that 10 of 14 Sinclairs from Orkney who are unrelated to fifth cousin or beyond, that is 71% are also in the S21+ group and those that have been tested further also match John Thurso, who is a scion of the Caithness Earldom line, we can now say we have identified the Y chromosome of the Sinclair Earls of Orkney and Caithness.

There are some other S21+ Sinclair lineages not in the Z346 subgroup, but it seems that the ancestors of Sinclairs in these groups, along with the S145/L21 and other lineages must have adopted the surname at some point in the past, and do not descend in the male line from the Earldom lineage.
Sequencing by Jim Wilson has discovered a number of novel recent Y chromosome SNPs which we hope will help to identify branches within the Earldom genealogy.

  Best,

  Shawn Sinclair"

  I just wanted to put this out there as last year I posted on DNA forums which is since non existant about another titled Sinclair whom was tested that wishes to remain anonymous.  We now have the proof we needed to solidify this line.  This line is also matching closely to the skeletal remains of A, B and C at Ergolding of which Dr. Daniel Vanek has stated in phone conversations were Merovingian in origin dating back to 670 AD.

  Anyone interested may contact Dr. Vanek at their own leisure.

  All my best,
  Diana

« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 04:07:21 PM by Diana » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2012, 08:25:58 PM »

(edit) hi Diana

I'm wondering if this would be better posted in the General Forum instead of the R1b and Subclades section.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 09:41:42 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Diana
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« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2012, 09:03:57 PM »

   I recall reading a bunch of posts on the Stewarts on this Forum.  U106 and those whom claim descent from Rollo deserve to be here on this forum where they belong.  This is a HUGE breakthrough for U106 and it's subclades but I can also post it to the General forums.  Thanks for your advice.
  By the way, my name is spelled Diana not Diane.

  
hi Diane

I'm wondering if this would be better posted in the General Forum instead of the R1b and Subclades section.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 09:19:02 PM by Diana » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2012, 04:46:38 AM »

there is no other way for one cluster of types to become the predominant one, unless it is the founder type, and that should equate to the earldom type as the first Sinclair Earl brought the name to the north.” Given this objective scientific evidence, coupled with the paper trails of the participants below who all connect to the Sinclair earldom area whether in Caithness, Orkney or Shetland, it seems irrefutable that what we are seeing here are descendants of the Sinclair Earls.
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« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2012, 11:29:02 AM »

there is no other way for one cluster of types to become the predominant one, unless it is the founder type, and that should equate to the earldom type as the first Sinclair Earl brought the name to the north.” Given this objective scientific evidence, coupled with the paper trails of the participants below who all connect to the Sinclair earldom area whether in Caithness, Orkney or Shetland, it seems irrefutable that what we are seeing here are descendants of the Sinclair Earls.

R-L21 is far more common than L11* and is clearly not the founder
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« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2012, 12:04:12 PM »

there is no other way for one cluster of types to become the predominant one, unless it is the founder type...

I don't care what cluster descends from the nobility, but I don't think we can reliably assert that the eventual most populous cluster was always the elite founder type for an associated surname.

In his book "The History of Wales", Norman Davies writes that the Norman Marcher Lord male lineages died out notoriously. I'm not sure that is absolutely true, as NPE's might have left surviving lineages we don't know about, but nevertheless, it is questionable that elite founders always left surviving male lineages.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 12:04:56 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Diana
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« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2012, 02:00:17 PM »

Oh, I think some do care and the "Normandy project" tried that awhile back even though the individual in question doesn't have a solid pedigree back to Normandy.

  From your group,

  "I think this is pretty important. I've got a confirmation that the Sinkler/Sinclair/St.Clair 11-13 people are L21+. They have a guy in their group that has a good enough pedigree back to Normandy, France that we was allowed in the Normandy DNA project. I don't know how you verify a pedigree that far bask as I don't see how one can prove an unbroken string of no NPE's. Nevertheless, I know the Normandy project has a high standard for showing a pedigree back to Normandy.
>
> Here is his information.
>
> Row 15 Kit 29753 Malger-le-Jeune, Compte de St Clair, c.1033, Corbu
>
> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Normandy/default.aspx?section=yresults
>
> His Ysearch is YQGH5. The St.Clair/Sinklair/Sinclair group of people have 406s1=12 and 617=14 so really they are 12-14 rather than 11-13 but it is on the correct (high) side of WAMH along with 11-13. Their other STR values match Group A-1 so I have them assigned them there. I think they are high odds to be L193+ and should definitely test for it."
>
  Unfortunatly this individual adminis-trator of st.clair research could have found out the truth by asking Thurso to test and decided to go against him in an open email regarding another issue that was none of his concern.  Always consistently going contrary to the evidence of Jim Wilson.

  Many members of this lineage claim descent to either the 4th or 9th Earls and link to Viscount Turso.  The illegitimates are far too many for most to muster but never the less have made my job easier!

  It is not an argument but a fact now. It is what it is, I am just putting it out there let's not shoot the messenger!

 Best,

  Diana

there is no other way for one cluster of types to become the predominant one, unless it is the founder type...

I don't care what cluster descends from the nobility, but I don't think we can reliably assert that the eventual most populous cluster was always the elite founder type for an associated surname.

In his book "The History of Wales", Norman Davies writes that the Norman Marcher Lord male lineages died out notoriously. I'm not sure that is absolutely true, as NPE's might have left surviving lineages we don't know about, but nevertheless, it is questionable that elite founders always left surviving male lineages.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 12:25:38 PM by Diana » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2012, 02:09:34 PM »

That Sinclair in the Normandy Y-DNA Project is in the "Possible Norman Ancestry (Unproven)" category.

Honestly, the Normandy Y-DNA project is kind of a pain-in-the-butt, since claims of Norman ancestry, at least in my experience, are overwhelmingly unverifiable.

Most of the guys in the actual Norman categories are French or can show they had an ancestor actually born in Normandy or the Channel Islands.
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« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2012, 02:14:22 PM »

Oh, I thinks some do care and the "Normandy project" tried that awhile back even though the individual in question doesn't have a pedigree back to Normandy and hardly makes it off the boat in Virginai!  

  From your group,

  "I think this is pretty important. I've got a confirmation that the Sinkler/Sinclair/St.Clair 11-13 people are L21+. They have a guy in their group that has a good enough pedigree back to Normandy, France that we was allowed in the Normandy DNA project. I don't know how you verify a pedigree that far bask as I don't see how one can prove an unbroken string of no NPE's. Nevertheless, I know the Normandy project has a high standard for showing a pedigree back to Normandy.
>
> Here is his information.
>
> Row 15 Kit 29753 Malger-le-Jeune, Compte de St Clair, c.1033, Corbu
>
> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Normandy/default.aspx?section=yresults
>
> His Ysearch is YQGH5. The St.Clair/Sinklair/Sinclair group of people have 406s1=12 and 617=14 so really they are 12-14 rather than 11-13 but it is on the correct (high) side of WAMH along with 11-13. Their other STR values match Group A-1 so I have them assigned them there. I think they are high odds to be L193+ and should definitely test for it."
>
  Unfortunatly this individual adminis-trator of st.clair research could have found out the truth by asking Thurso to test and decided to go against him in an open email regarding another issue that was none of his concern.  Always consistentaly going contrary to the evidence of Jim Wilson.

  Many members of this lineage claim descent to either the 4th or 9th Earls and link to Viscount Turso.  The illegitimates are far too many for most to muster but never the less have made my job easier!

  It is what it is, I am just putting it out there!

 Best,

  Diana

there is no other way for one cluster of types to become the predominant one, unless it is the founder type...

I don't care what cluster descends from the nobility, but I don't think we can reliably assert that the eventual most populous cluster was always the elite founder type for an associated surname.

In his book "The History of Wales", Norman Davies writes that the Norman Marcher Lord male lineages died out notoriously. I'm not sure that is absolutely true, as NPE's might have left surviving lineages we don't know about, but nevertheless, it is questionable that elite founders always left surviving male lineages.

Diana, I'm not the Normandy project administrator.  In the L513 project, I just report the MDKAs as they are submitted. In other words, I don't change a member's MDKA.  I don't do anything to validate them, and have no desire to.

In the spreadsheets I keep track of I try consolidate the Ysearch MDKA and FTDNA MDKA if they are different, and curiously, some times they are.

As you quoted me above:
Quote from: MikeW
I don't know how you verify a pedigree that far bask as I don't see how one can prove an unbroken string of no NPE's

That is my general position, nothing more, nothing less.  Now, I will say that the Stewart folks have done a nice job of triangulating multiple surnames and their genealogies. That still doesn't eliminate any chance of NPEs throwing a wrench in the works, but I applaud their efforts. You work may be correct. I don't know. I'll bet you guys have great discussions in your surname forum, where the interested parties are.

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« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2012, 02:21:36 PM »

... Most of the guys in the actual Norman categories are French or can show they had an ancestor actually born in Normandy or the Channel Islands.
For a geographical project like yours, I think that only folks who have actual genealogical timeframe (to me that is only a couple or three generations) are of much value. Of course, much better are folks who actually live in the Normandy area.  National Geno would say go to the rural areas only and find people who's ancestors on both sides are from there.

Ironnically, in the old dna-forums, I received vehement disagreement on this. All the Rollo type Normans must have left Normandy long ago and left it to the old Romano-Gauls, Bretons and a few Franks.  The real Normans are English landowners.... LOL, but perhaps so.  The Normans are always good for creating controversy. Of course, they should probably be I1 or R1a1.
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« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2012, 02:23:18 PM »


  Wish we could say we were more like some other Clans with DNA results and such but that just isn't the case.  John Thurso has been ever so willing to help the family.
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« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2012, 02:27:06 PM »

... Most of the guys in the actual Norman categories are French or can show they had an ancestor actually born in Normandy or the Channel Islands.
I think that only folks who have actual genealogical timeframe (to me that is only a couple or three generations)  Of course, much better are folks who actually live in the Normandy area.

Ironnically, in the old dna-forums, I received vehement disagreement on this. All the Rollo type Normans must have left Normandy long ago and left it to the old Romano-Gauls, Bretons and a few Franks.  The real Normans are English landowners.... LOL, the Normans are always good for creating controversy.

Yep. Only the Vikings (Normans once removed, I guess) and the Indo-Europeans are better at stirring up wannabeism.

I like to picture my y-dna immigrant ancestor drinking a pint of ale in a British pub somewhere.

In that case, I am following in his footsteps exactly, except the pub is now in Virginia, and the ale is probably Sierra Nevada.
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« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2012, 02:27:13 PM »


  I agree, however John Thurso goes back to the St. Clair's of Rosslyn and of course Normandy.  In fact he has a 2nd connection to Rosslyn via his great grandmother on the female side as well...


  It is the surest we have at the moment until Sturla posts the results of Project Rollo.

  Can't wait!
... Most of the guys in the actual Norman categories are French or can show they had an ancestor actually born in Normandy or the Channel Islands.
I think that only folks who have actual genealogical timeframe (to me that is only a couple or three generations) are of much value. Of course, much better are folks who actually live in the Normandy area.  National Geno would say go to the rural areas only and find people who's ancestors on both sides are from there.

Ironnically, in the old dna-forums, I received vehement disagreement on this. All the Rollo type Normans must have left Normandy long ago and left it to the old Romano-Gauls, Bretons and a few Franks.  The real Normans are English landowners.... LOL, the Normans are always good for creating controversy. Of course, they should probably be I1 or R1a1.
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« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2012, 02:35:09 PM »

 :-) Among the true descendants, you bet we do!  I can't speak for the pretenders though who must discuss an awful lot of tea party fluffy stuff!

Congratulations for being a true descendant.
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« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2012, 02:49:26 PM »

  I am NOT actually but I have been working for that cause for the past 8 years now to find the truth.  I am close to some of it's members by friendship.  Others (irrelevant few) not so much and it is widely known within the Clan! No matter I consider myself on the right side anyhow.

  I am married to a Sinclair who doesn't match exactly on STR's but matches all deep clade tests thus far, Z1, Z8...  

  Quite right about England and many of them ended up there as you know from the Doomsday book and the Norman Invasion of Whales and Ireland where they left their DNA trails behind..  This is but one piece of the puzzel.

I will put it this way.  Were it not for myself and my impeccable memory for information (Lineage charts, and individuals) and testing to verify Shawn's finding of pertinent people to test this line may have been wiped off the map.
 
 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 12:30:41 PM by Diana » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2012, 02:53:48 PM »

In my case, I don't think so much of the Normans but of the contingent of stalwart Breton knights who came with the Normans. There is a tradition that at least one Stevens/Stephens line stems from Fitz Stephen, a supposed son of Count Stephen of Brittany.

It's the merest fantasy, I know, but it would be neat.
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« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2012, 03:02:53 PM »


Maybe future archaeological YDNA results from early historical characters will throw some light on all this kind of thing.
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« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2012, 03:10:14 PM »



  Thank you Rosemary, whom ever you are!

  Diana

there is no other way for one cluster of types to become the predominant one, unless it is the founder type, and that should equate to the earldom type as the first Sinclair Earl brought the name to the north.” Given this objective scientific evidence, coupled with the paper trails of the participants below who all connect to the Sinclair earldom area whether in Caithness, Orkney or Shetland, it seems irrefutable that what we are seeing here are descendants of the Sinclair Earls.
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« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2012, 03:17:00 PM »



  Fitz Stephens are related to the Fitz Martins and also a line I am looking at.

  Earlier the Merovingians revered Martin of Tours.  They would carry his cloak into battle with them.  Prior to Surnames there was a John Martinus whom was born on Iona, the current Earls daughters name.

  I won't get into those origins.

That is all I will say on that topic for now!  ;-)

In my case, I don't think so much of the Normans but of the contingent of stalwart Breton knights who came with the Normans. There is a tradition that at least one Stevens/Stephens line stems from Fitz Stephen, a supposed son of Count Stephen of Brittany.

It's the merest fantasy, I know, but it would be neat.
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« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2012, 03:35:26 PM »

Mike,
My wife Diana has said pretty much all of the info I wanted to share, but with regards to my specific Deep Clade, I'm Z1, Z8 + with just the 343 to test which I'm positive will come back positive as well, the only question is the STR matches which I'm slightly off on, 6 away from the same lineage, which makes me believe the common anscetor is in France/Normandy. With asking Thurso to test and his agreement to do so, helped to solidify our original thoughts on the lineage of Sinclairs in question, and I was pleasantly surprised when his results came back the same as. Jim's work on the matter is hence reassured. And thank you for your kind words with re to the original Sinclair line. It took us 8 years to prove. Cheers!


 :-) Among the true descendants, you bet we do!  I can't speak for the pretenders though who must discuss an awful lot of tea party fluffy stuff!

Congratulations for being a true descendant.
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