Patterns of DF27 in Iberia

[alan trowel hands.]

I am curious where the more upstream or older forms of DF27 are in Iberia specifically.  By that I mean DF27*, Z196*, Z209/N-S cluster and maybe L176.2 (but not SRY 2627 and the younger clades).  I also think it would not be unreasonable to add to the 'older' DF27 list all Iberian P312* that is untested for DF27 but proven negative for U152, L21 and SRY2627 and M153 SNPs as this group would seem most likely to belong to the upstream/older DF27 clades.

 I understand the younger clades are big in the Basque/Catalan area but what about these pooled earlier DF27 clades/clusters?  Is their distribution in Iberia different.  I ask this because this might help understand the origins of DF27 and what archaeological links it may have.

[Richard Rocca]

I am curious where the more upstream or older forms of DF27 are in Iberia specifically.  By that I mean DF27*, Z196*, Z209/N-S cluster and maybe L176.2 (but not SRY 2627 and the younger clades).  I also think it would not be unreasonable to add to the 'older' DF27 list all Iberian P312* that is untested for DF27 but proven negative for U152, L21 and SRY2627 and M153 SNPs as this group would seem most likely to belong to the upstream/older DF27 clades.

 I understand the younger clades are big in the Basque/Catalan area but what about these pooled earlier DF27 clades/clusters?  Is their distribution in Iberia different.  I ask this because this might help understand the origins of DF27 and what archaeological links it may have.

Here is what I observed from the 1KG data:

DF27* = Showed more in Iberian and Latin American samples.
DF27+Z225+ = This branch showed only in Iberian and Latin American samples.
DF27+Z196* = non found.
DF27+L176.2 = Primarily Iberian
DF27+Z274 through Z220 = Looks more non-Iberian and seems to be the breaking point from the rest of the Iberian and Latin American samples.
DF27+Z278 through M153 looks Iberian

I say "Iberian" because France was not samples.

Perhaps razyn can confirm the Z274 through Z220 pattern as I have not really been keeping up with all of the FTDNA testing.

[razyn]

Well there aren't any results for Z274 at FTDNA, because they haven't offered that test, but the other results that are easy to see are in the R-P312 and Subclades project, from group P through Pc (all on page 2 of the results, if you don't change the default size of the display).

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/default.aspx?vgroup=atlantic-r1b1c&section=ycolorized

There are many more such results, plus the option of sorting and manipulating them as you see fit, in Mike Walsh's data as posted in the Yahoo R-P312 research group files.  If you use a PC and have a newish version of Excel, you can employ a lot of helpful macros for that task.  I don't, and can't.

[chris1]

For what it's worth I quickly made a Google Map with the current DF27 results from the FTDNA R-P312 and Subclades Project that razyn mentioned, above.

Many say FTDNA projects are biased towards the British Isles, or other places Americans emigrated from, so that should be allowed for. The P312 and Subclade Project is well organised and public.

There are only 51 results in the section marked 'P. R-DF27', geographical locations were taken from information on their entry, 7 were marked 'Unknown'. Pins with dots are actual location, those without dots are people who only entered their country of origin. In that case the pin was placed on the capital.



As expected, there is an Isles bias (England and Scotland) but also a broad scattering right across Europe. The image looks small on the preview, hopefully it will enlarge (right/left click etc. maybe. For Mac, use ctrl.)

[Richard Rocca]

For what it's worth I quickly made a Google Map with the current DF27 results from the FTDNA R-P312 and Subclades Project that razyn mentioned, above.

Many say FTDNA projects are biased towards the British Isles, or other places Americans emigrated from, so that should be allowed for. The P312 and Subclade Project is well organised and public.

There are only 51 results in the section marked 'P. R-DF27', geographical locations were taken from information on their entry, 7 were marked 'Unknown'. Pins with dots are actual location, those without dots are people who only entered their country of origin. In that case the pin was placed on the capital.



As expected, there is an Isles bias (England and Scotland) but also a broad scattering right across Europe. The image looks small on the preview, hopefully it will enlarge (right/left click etc. maybe. For Mac, use ctrl.)

The testing bias is not just from the British Isles. There are huge amounts of German-Americans and Polish-Americans that test as well, so the Palatine region of German and Poland need to be included in the bias category. In the R1b world we are not used to the 'Polish' bias creeping in because it is lower there, but if you go to the Poland project, you will see what I mean.

Also, certain countries have biases within them, for example Southern Italy and Sicily in the Italy project, again due to Americans (me included).

[razyn]

There are only 51 results in the section marked 'P. R-DF27', geographical locations were taken from information on their entry, 7 were marked 'Unknown'. Pins with dots are actual location, those without dots are people who only entered their country of origin. In that case the pin was placed on the capital.

But that's nothing like a DF27* paragroup.  More like people who used to be P312* and have taken one more SNP test (that became available in May).  Also, I believe more than half of the DF27 people in that project would still be classified as P312 -- further broken down by various countries of origin, because the project was set up that way.  So you would need to look both upstream and down to find e.g. all the North/South cluster folks (who would be Z209 and/or Z220, if tested for those).  That would include many Iberian ones -- and also many more from farther east and north.

[A_Wode]

I checked out for a few months and suddenly Z196+ results in the P312 project went up quite a bit. Looks great.

[alan trowel hands.]

What I was really angling at is does pooled DF27 WITHIN Iberia got a pattern once you subtract SRY2627 and other younger downstream? I ask this because there are several possible archaeological explanations

1. If the more upstream aspects DF27 was present in the earliest wave of beakers (or even pre-beaker) in Portugal at the most most favoured location of take off point of maritime beakers then you would expect it to be highest in Portugal with a heavy stream heading along the Med. and maybe a scatter along the north.

2. If DF27 only entered Iberia during a seconday reflux phase of more central European beakers into Iberia (which I understand local archaeologists believe in) then you would expect a different pattern.

So, I am really only talking about the patterns of the older forms of DF27 (older than SRY 2627 WITHIN Iberia. 

[chris1]

There are only 51 results in the section marked 'P. R-DF27', geographical locations were taken from information on their entry, 7 were marked 'Unknown'. Pins with dots are actual location, those without dots are people who only entered their country of origin. In that case the pin was placed on the capital.

But that's nothing like a DF27* paragroup.  More like people who used to be P312* and have taken one more SNP test (that became available in May).  Also, I believe more than half of the DF27 people in that project would still be classified as P312 -- further broken down by various countries of origin, because the project was set up that way.  So you would need to look both upstream and down to find e.g. all the North/South cluster folks (who would be Z209 and/or Z220, if tested for those).  That would include many Iberian ones -- and also many more from farther east and north.

It's just a map of the 'P. R-DF27' section of the R-P312 and Subclades Project. Most are tested DF27/Z196-, so not SRY2627, M153 etc. Of the non-Z196 subclades downstream of DF27, one is L1231+. There are perhaps as yet undiscovered subclades of DF27 within the P. R-DF27 section results. I've now used a different colour to highlight the known DF27/Z196- results.

There are maybe not enough FTDNA results from Iberia in the 'P. R-DF27' panel to help with Alan's question. I think 4 of the 5 Iberians are tested Z196- but two don't have a place of birth entered, 3 of them are Z225-.

[Rosemary123456]

 If DF27 only entered Iberia during a seconday reflux phase of more central European beakers into Iberia (which I understand local archaeologists believe in) then you would expect a different pattern.

[Isidro]

I just don't see much difference between P312xU152,L21 and DF27.

I also question the relative closeness in age amongst P312+, either they traveled together and expanded together (the major sub-branches of P312) or enough time had to pass by for DF27, L21 and U152 to be fruitful and multiply where they are found today.

I just don't see M269 being such an elite marker that came from far away East and leaving slim traces of surviving populations, in linear thinking would be like like the West Coast of the USA being the oldest colonies and the East Coast having barely any traces (population)of such movement.

[RickA]

For what it's worth I quickly made a Google Map with the current DF27 results from the FTDNA R-P312 and Subclades Project that razyn mentioned, above.

Many say FTDNA projects are biased towards the British Isles, or other places Americans emigrated from, so that should be allowed for. The P312 and Subclade Project is well organised and public.

There are only 51 results in the section marked 'P. R-DF27', geographical locations were taken from information on their entry, 7 were marked 'Unknown'. Pins with dots are actual location, those without dots are people who only entered their country of origin. In that case the pin was placed on the capital.



As expected, there is an Isles bias (England and Scotland) but also a broad scattering right across Europe. The image looks small on the preview, hopefully it will enlarge (right/left click etc. maybe. For Mac, use ctrl.)

Chris1, I can't link to your map. I'll thank you to repost the link. Cheers, Rick