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Author Topic: Contemporary paternal genetic landscape of Polish and German populations  (Read 2770 times)
A_Wode
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« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2012, 04:08:40 PM »


R1b1* YCAII=18-22 and 18-23 is Western European (both only in Italy: and why the administrators of the Italian FTDNA Project don’t deepen an R1b1* with also 19-23?)

This is where a disagree with you. I have considered an R1b1 origin in Europe, and I don't think there is enough supporting evidence for it. While Italy certainly does have old R1b variants, I don't see it being numerically significant to label the area the point of origin. Was Italy important in the growth and spread of R1b? I would agree, but so was France.
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polako
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« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2012, 06:16:55 AM »

Keep in mind folks, this study mostly looked at cultural and linguistic isolates.

I think the approach they took was the same as the HGDP - in other words, more isolated = purer and thus more representative.

The problem with that approach is that isolates suffer from founder effect and drift more readily than mainstream populations.

So we'll have to wait until another study comes out, which also samples all the mainstream Polish populations from Western and Central Poland, plus also a wide variety of Eastern, Northern and Central German populations.

And let me just say, oh my god, Y-DNA STRs are so old school.

BTW...

http://polishgenes.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/y-dna-of-west-slavs-vs-eastern-germans.html
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 06:17:15 AM by polako » Logged
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2012, 08:14:42 AM »

Keep in mind folks, this study mostly looked at cultural and linguistic isolates.

I think the approach they took was the same as the HGDP - in other words, more isolated = purer and thus more representative.

The problem with that approach is that isolates suffer from founder effect and drift more readily than mainstream populations.

So we'll have to wait until another study comes out, which also samples all the mainstream Polish populations from Western and Central Poland, plus also a wide variety of Eastern, Northern and Central German populations.

And let me just say, oh my god, Y-DNA STRs are so old school.

BTW...

http://polishgenes.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/y-dna-of-west-slavs-vs-eastern-germans.html

A little off topic, but since my sons are half-Polish, I finally convinced one of my brother-in-laws to test their DNA (with me footing the bill of course). My wife's paternal line:

Jozef Gardocki, b.1887, Zalesie, Podlasie Province, Poland
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Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2012, 08:33:13 AM »

....
And let me just say....  Y-DNA STRs are so old school.
...

What do you mean by that? The use of Y DNA STRs in understanding paternal lineages in both genetic genealogy and population genetics has been very helpful. I don't want to side track this thread so I'll post this over in case Polako wants to discuss. (Click here for STR Wars thread)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 08:34:27 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
A_Wode
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« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2012, 10:17:35 AM »

Can someone explain to me how they are estimating 20% of Slavic paternal ancestry using ADMIXTURE for the German populations?

By looking at the haplotypes, even when I add up the traditionally Slavic haplogroups, it only puts me at 15% in Bavaria. (I2a2-M423 and R1a1)

I know this is oversimplification, but R1b and I1 are far more dominant and are backed up by tons of aDNA in Germany. I guess my question is, how can the authors determine what is Slavic and what is Germanic by looking at - what I assume to be Y SNPs rather than autosomal ones. What is their methodology?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 10:20:21 AM by A_Wode » Logged
acekon
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« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2012, 11:13:15 AM »

Of the the 7 regions tested, you would have a 67% percent chance to fall in R1a/R1b.  

Kaszuby-Kociewie-Kurpie-Lusatia-Slovakia-Bavaria (N 1156)

67.21%  belong to R-M173[R1]
44.46%  belong to R-M17[R1a]
22.49%  belonging to R-M269[R1b]

22.83% belong to R-M429[IJ]

4.41% belong to[E]
2.42% belong to [G]
2.20% belong to [N]
0.34% belong to[Q]
0.34% belong to[T]
0.08% belong to[H]
0.08% belong  to[C]  


Keep in mind the J results are pretty insignificant and unrelated to the substantial I results. I wouldn't really group these together.

In a vary broad  and general range[eyeballing countries with R-M429] and without doing actual population calculations, I would venture to say that  snp,s R1b R-M269,L23 are associated with Indo-European languages, probably in the neighborhood of 95%-99% R1b L51 99.99% Indo-European language. R1a M-17 with Indo-European languages,95%- 99% ,and R1a M458 perhaps 99.99% Indo-European languages.

The same correlation could be made with I M253[M423] however as you move up the branch to an equivalent snp R-M269 or M17 like  snp IJ* R-M429 it is perhaps in the neighborhood 50%/50% split of  Afro-Asiatic 50% and 50% Indo-European.

It would be interesting to do the actual calculations.

That is why I would also postulate that the older branches of R1b and R1a did not originate in predominantly Afro-Asiatic [Arabia Felix+Levant]speaking lands but traditional Indo-European speaking regions.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 12:26:10 PM by acekon » Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
polako
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« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2012, 04:50:31 AM »

Can someone explain to me how they are estimating 20% of Slavic paternal ancestry using ADMIXTURE for the German populations?

By looking at the haplotypes, even when I add up the traditionally Slavic haplogroups, it only puts me at 15% in Bavaria. (I2a2-M423 and R1a1)

I know this is oversimplification, but R1b and I1 are far more dominant and are backed up by tons of aDNA in Germany. I guess my question is, how can the authors determine what is Slavic and what is Germanic by looking at - what I assume to be Y SNPs rather than autosomal ones. What is their methodology?

I haven't looked at this issue yet, but I think it's covered in one of the supplements.

Anyway, it seems bizarre that they used Bavarians to estimate Slavic gene flow into eastern Germans.

I'd say Bavarians would have much less than 20% paternal Slavic admix, while Germans from Macklenburg around 20%.

However, wouldn't it make more sense to test Germans from around Lusatia? They would certainly have the most Slavic influence of all modern Germans. But we shouldn't forget the "Polish" Germans of the Ruhr district in the West.

Also, why didn't this study look at Germans from the former eastern territories, if the focus was on pre-WWII genetics? It seems the authors didn't practice what they preached, for some mysterious reason.

I hope they were limited by a lack of resources. Otherwise, I'd have to say that there were some political undertones to this effort, which is bizarre if true, since it's 2012 and not 1939.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 04:50:59 AM by polako » Logged
Mkk
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« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2012, 05:06:13 AM »

Quote
I hope they were limited by a lack of resources. Otherwise, I'd have to say that there were some political undertones to this effort, which is bizarre if true, since it's 2012 and not 1939.
Yes, but this issue has always been a big one. It is in relation to one of the largest population movements in history, definantly one of if not the most notable examples of ethnic cleansing genocide. The ethnic face of central Europe was changed beyond recognition in less than 4 years.

And now 70 years later the world still has to deal with this insanity dreamt up by a few drunk men, and the old scars don't heal too well.

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polako
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« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2012, 05:18:13 AM »

Yes, but this issue has always been a big one. It is in relation to one of the largest population movements in history, definantly one of if not the most notable examples of ethnic cleansing genocide. The ethnic face of central Europe was changed beyond recognition in less than 4 years.

And now 70 years later the world still has to deal with this insanity dreamt up by a few drunk men, and the old scars don't heal too well.

Yeah, I didn't grow up in Poland, so it's hard for me to try and understand what some of these scientists were thinking, especially maybe those who had grandparents affected by the war.

In spite of that, I think the most reasonable thing to do would be to organize a comprehensive and objective study about pre-WWII genetics on the Polish/German border.

That would really be something fascinating, and could give us huge insights into prehistoric and historic population movements in the area.

But like I say, I have a feeling that won't come from Poland, which is frustrating.
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Mkk
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« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2012, 05:51:51 AM »

Yes, but this issue has always been a big one. It is in relation to one of the largest population movements in history, definantly one of if not the most notable examples of ethnic cleansing genocide. The ethnic face of central Europe was changed beyond recognition in less than 4 years.

And now 70 years later the world still has to deal with this insanity dreamt up by a few drunk men, and the old scars don't heal too well.

Yeah, I didn't grow up in Poland, so it's hard for me to try and understand what some of these scientists were thinking, especially maybe those who had grandparents affected by the war.

In spite of that, I think the most reasonable thing to do would be to organize a comprehensive and objective study about pre-WWII genetics on the Polish/German border.

That would really be something fascinating, and could give us huge insights into prehistoric and historic population movements in the area.

But like I say, I have a feeling that won't come from Poland, which is frustrating.
I don't see why it would be so hard to get YDNA samples that would be representative of the formerly German areas that were given to Poland. It was just 70 years ago, and the German minority left in these areas knows who they are. Also people will know if their father was an expellee.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2012, 12:24:03 PM »

.. Not sure if there is any other useful information but I agree with Maliclavelli that R1b was probably spread from Impressed Ware Mediterraneans from the south, or south-east.

I understand that the Impressed Ware Neolithic advance was from SW Asia into Europe from the southeast. The earliest sites, I think, were about 6000 BC (8K ybp) in far SE Europe. It then moved through the Italian Peninsula reached Iberia and S France by 4500 BC (6.5K ybp.)

Why do you think Impressed Ware folks spread R1b?  and what forms or R1b were in the initial spread? Do you mean M343? or M269xL23, or L23xL11 or L11 itself?

The chronology is older than that.  This is the Wiki summary

The earliest Impressed Ware sites, dating to 6400-6200 BC, are in Epirus and Corfu. Settlements then appear in Albania and Dalmatia on the eastern Adriatic coast dating to between 6100 and 5900 BC.[5] The earliest date in Italy comes from Coppa Nevigata on the Adriatic coast of southern Italy, perhaps as early as 6000 cal B.C. Also during Su Carroppu civilization in Sardinia, already in its early stages (low strata into Su Coloru cave, c. 6000 BC) early examples of cardial pottery appear[6]. Northward and westward all secure radiocarbon dates are identical to those for Iberia c. 5500 cal B.C.
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polako
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« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2012, 01:43:13 AM »

OK, I know what the story is with the admixture analyses in this paper.

They used three different statistical methods to work out admixture using STRs. All tests were supervised, in the sense that "pure" populations were chosen to act as proxies for German and West Slavic paternal ancestors.

First, they ran a test using the Kociewie from Northern Poland as a "pure" West Slavic group, and the Bavarians as a proxy for German ancestry in Sorbs and Kaszubs.

Since the Sorbs and Kaszubs matched the Kociewie at around 100%, it was concluded that they had minimal German paternal ancestry. The problem is that the Kociewie carry R-U106 at fairly high levels - I think as high as anyone in East Central Europe. That would most certainly cancel out a lot of German admixture in the Sorbs and Kaszubs.

Then they used the Sorbs and Kaszubs as proxies for Slavic admixture for modern eastern German groups from previous papers. They came up with figures of 18 to 26% paternal Slavic admixture.

But the Kaszubs carry a lot of I-M253, and I suspect that would raise the level of supposed Slavic admixture in many German groups, particularly those in the north.

The Bavarians in this paper weren't tested for paternal Slavic admixture, but that's not apparent from the abstract. More importantly, as I already said, there was no attempt to test the relationship between Germans from the former east and the Kaszubs, Kociewie and Kurpie. So it appears as if the authors failed in the most important regard.

I modified my blog entry accordingly after reading the paper...

http://polishgenes.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/y-dna-of-west-slavs-vs-eastern-germans.html

BTW, did anyone notice the C-M130 in Bavaria? Keep in mind the recent announcement that Hunnic remains from Bavaria showed an East Asian mtDNA sequence. So this C-M130 might well be Hunnic. Does anyone know where it comes from in Asia, perhaps via its haplotype?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 01:45:11 AM by polako » Logged
A_Wode
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« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2012, 10:17:07 AM »

Thanks for that.

I still expect that the bulk of U106 came from the west within the last 1000 years with German minded expansionism. Though some of it could have come earlier with some pre-historic cultures that were in Scandinavia or further west, it doesn't seem correlated with Slavic cultures at all and I think data here is a red herring.

I'd agree that C-M130 stands out as being Mongolian and came with various eastern warriors whose lines for the most part fizzled out.
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Mkk
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« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2012, 10:30:25 AM »

It's the same fallacy as using the Basques as a "pure" Paleolithic population.
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acekon
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« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2012, 11:14:21 AM »

R1b lineages tested down to the following SNPs:

M17, M458, M17, L23*, P311*, U106,*, U198, L48, P312*, SRY2627, U152*, L2*, L20 and L21

also found in Polish German population landscape
+Z2105+L277+L584+.... and counting
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YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
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A_Wode
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« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2012, 01:17:17 PM »

also found in Polish German population landscape
+Z2105+L277+L584+.... and counting
Interesting, which project?

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acekon
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« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2012, 12:03:27 AM »

also found in Polish German population landscape
+Z2105+L277+L584+.... and counting
Interesting, which project?


That's on a need to know basis. Are you a member of R1b group? Are you German? BTW, you shouldn't be ashamed to fill in your complete admixture heritage, not just your paternal line. That way we might be able to get a general idea, how it fits in with other members who have  similar R1b structures. There is a great tool on Gedmatch, "admixture."  Otherwise you are only showing the smallest fraction by only posting one snp marker, really not that much to go by, but I guess it is better than nothing.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 12:05:12 AM by acekon » Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
razyn
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« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2012, 01:49:28 AM »

Is admixture supposed to be relevant to R1b phylogenic research?
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