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Author Topic: Any new origin theories on the "Big Six" under DF13?  (Read 1875 times)
eochaidh
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« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2012, 03:47:23 PM »

...
...
To repeat, DF13+ and ALL of its subclades originated in France.

It appears you are basing your logic partially on frequency. I don't think high frequency or high absolute numbers are necessarily indicators of origin. You might be right if you are saying DF13 and the Bix Six subclades all originated in France. I doubt if all the lesser subclades under DF13 originated in France but we have very limited data on the lesser subclades. L226 is a good example of a subclade that has a limited distribution range, primarily Munster.

The English channel is not that wide so I could see a lot happening on either side of it.  I'm not sure where the home base for the first large L21 expansion was.  Perhaps that is a bigger question to ask. I don't think the Low Countries or the Rhine Valley could be ruled out, to go along with N/NW France or right across the channel on the English coast.  I guess this sounds like Rhenish Bell Beaker stuff again.

I'm not basing my logic on frequency, because in almost all cases the frequency of DF13+ and its subclades will be higher in The Isles and I am saying that the origin of DF13+ and its subclades is France.

I am saying that the amounts of DF13+ and its subclades found in France are/will be to large to explain away due to migration from The Isles.

L226 may currently have a range that doesn't stray far from Munster, but eventually a result will be found in France. When that happens, that result will be equal to 100 males lines, which is far too many to be explained away to migration from Munster. Two results will mean 200 males lines. The only logical place of origin will be France.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2012, 04:00:53 PM »

When I plot the "Big Six" under DF13, I get a strong Gaelic signal. I have uses various shades of green to represent Gaelic with deeper green suggesting a stronger Gaelic signal. Scottish Gaelic are also shown as green. Iberian or Atlantic facade are shown as various shades of yellow and red. DF41 is a facinating case and it will be interesting to see a "French" SNP downstream or a largely Gaelic tree.

Reading Cunliffes latest book "Britian Begins" he builds a very strong and convincing argument for the Atlantic Facade networks from the earliest Mesolithic settlers, through early Neolithic, Megalithic, Copper, Bronze and Iron ages. The latest Patterson study also suggests a Bell Beaker expansion out of Iberia circa 3,600 BP.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763708372/

Heber,

I am enjoying your book report. I am interested in the L21 network along the Atlantic Facade and I ran across this paper that you and others may see how it pertains to earlier exploration of the NW coast of Europe and into the Isle.

http://www.shimajournal.org/issues/v4n1/g.%20Rennell%20Shima%20v4n1%2047-64.pdf

MJost
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 04:01:42 PM by Mark Jost » Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2012, 04:18:29 PM »

I'm not basing my logic on frequency, because in almost all cases the frequency of DF13+ and its subclades will be higher in The Isles and I am saying that the origin of DF13+ and its subclades is France.

I am saying that the amounts of DF13+ and its subclades found in France are/will be to large to explain away due to migration from The Isles.

L226 may currently have a range that doesn't stray far from Munster, but eventually a result will be found in France. When that happens, that result will be equal to 100 males lines, which is far too many to be explained away to migration from Munster. Two results will mean 200 males lines. The only logical place of origin will be France.

Okay, got it. You have been perfectly clear and I appreciate that. There is no need for you to waste your time posting messages on other threads about this theme any more unless you have some new pertinent information.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 04:19:12 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
eochaidh
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« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2012, 05:03:35 PM »

I'm not basing my logic on frequency, because in almost all cases the frequency of DF13+ and its subclades will be higher in The Isles and I am saying that the origin of DF13+ and its subclades is France.

I am saying that the amounts of DF13+ and its subclades found in France are/will be to large to explain away due to migration from The Isles.

L226 may currently have a range that doesn't stray far from Munster, but eventually a result will be found in France. When that happens, that result will be equal to 100 males lines, which is far too many to be explained away to migration from Munster. Two results will mean 200 males lines. The only logical place of origin will be France.

Okay, got it. You have been perfectly clear and I appreciate that. There is no need for you to waste your time posting messages on other threads about this theme any more unless you have some new pertinent information.

I will post when I wish to post, and I will post on the subjects I wish to express an opinion or response. Of course I will do this within the rules of this forum.

I was not aware that posters, other than Moderators or Administrators, could tell posters when they could post or what opinions they could express.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 05:07:04 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2012, 05:32:49 PM »

I'm not basing my logic on frequency, because in almost all cases the frequency of DF13+ and its subclades will be higher in The Isles and I am saying that the origin of DF13+ and its subclades is France.

I am saying that the amounts of DF13+ and its subclades found in France are/will be to large to explain away due to migration from The Isles.

L226 may currently have a range that doesn't stray far from Munster, but eventually a result will be found in France. When that happens, that result will be equal to 100 males lines, which is far too many to be explained away to migration from Munster. Two results will mean 200 males lines. The only logical place of origin will be France.

Okay, got it. You have been perfectly clear and I appreciate that. There is no need for you to waste your time posting messages on other threads about this theme any more unless you have some new pertinent information.

I will post when I wish to post, and I will post on the subjects I wish to express an opinion or response. Of course I will do this within the rules of this forum.

I was not aware that posters, other than Moderators or Administrators, could tell posters when they could post or what opinions they could express.

I never told you not to post, just that there is no need to use energy posting the same theme over and over again without providing new insight or data. Especially when the theme appears somewhat arbitrary, but maybe that is your point to show that one perspective that you may not hold might be arbitrary. I get it, but you've made your point so need to repeat.

Heck, I've been on forums where an ISOGG rep questioned the "utility" of a posters message... and they were talking to me.... and I think they were right, at least in some respects. LOL.

One can use polite terms when "disrupting the normal on-topic discussion" but it could still be considered trolling in some circumstances.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 05:38:53 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
eochaidh
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« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2012, 05:44:46 PM »

I started this thread, and I responded on a thread about DF13 and the Big Six. For as long as I have been on these forums people have posted about the origin of Haplogroups and subclades. I will continue to do so, and I will be the judge as to whether I am wasting my energy or not.

I will also refrain from suggesting to other posters how they should use their posting time.
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rms2
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« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2012, 08:53:41 PM »

I think France is very likely the birthplace of L21. It seems to be particularly diverse, not merely in haplotypes, but in the variety of P312+ haplogroups there, and not just L21.
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Heber
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« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2012, 03:22:44 AM »

When I plot the "Big Six" under DF13, I get a strong Gaelic signal. I have uses various shades of green to represent Gaelic with deeper green suggesting a stronger Gaelic signal. Scottish Gaelic are also shown as green. Iberian or Atlantic facade are shown as various shades of yellow and red. DF41 is a facinating case and it will be interesting to see a "French" SNP downstream or a largely Gaelic tree.

Reading Cunliffes latest book "Britian Begins" he builds a very strong and convincing argument for the Atlantic Facade networks from the earliest Mesolithic settlers, through early Neolithic, Megalithic, Copper, Bronze and Iron ages. The latest Patterson study also suggests a Bell Beaker expansion out of Iberia circa 3,600 BP.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763708372/

Heber,

I am enjoying your book report. I am interested in the L21 network along the Atlantic Facade and I ran across this paper that you and others may see how it pertains to earlier exploration of the NW coast of Europe and into the Isle.

http://www.shimajournal.org/issues/v4n1/g.%20Rennell%20Shima%20v4n1%2047-64.pdf

MJost
[/quote

Mark,
I will get down to reading it in detail on the weekend. Cunliffe has some interesting observations on the Hebrides exchange networks during the Mesolithic, including for Mudstone in Skye, Bloodstone in Kates Bay and Pitchstone in Arran and Rhum.
Regarding the Maritime Bell Beaker exchange networks, some of the clusters identified are: Tartessos and Tagus valley, Morbihan Core Zone and Loire Paris Basin, Wessex, Ross Isle, Great Orme and Southern France Bell Beaker.
I guess this would be the closest to the L21 and possibly M165 migration path along the Atlantic facade.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



brunetmj
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« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2012, 05:23:58 PM »

I am DF 13 and negative for all downstream SNP's.
My earliest known ancestor was from Dieppe , France.
It would be kind of neat to belong to a group that began L21.
However I am of the opinion that it's origins will never be known.
Between the massive movement of people , the plauges of Europe and the great wars to much evidence has been destroyed . I suspect even with perfect DNA testing and with
everyone in the world tested  great holes in this knowledge will exist.
It is fun to therorize when it remains fun.
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L21 DF13** French
avalon
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« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2012, 04:00:39 AM »

I am DF 13 and negative for all downstream SNP's.
My earliest known ancestor was from Dieppe , France.
It would be kind of neat to belong to a group that began L21.
However I am of the opinion that it's origins will never be known.
Between the massive movement of people , the plauges of Europe and the great wars to much evidence has been destroyed . I suspect even with perfect DNA testing and with
everyone in the world tested  great holes in this knowledge will exist.
It is fun to therorize when it remains fun.


These are excellent points. I think people really underestimate how much events like the medieval plagues and wars of the 20th century might have impacted on the genetic landscape.
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