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Author Topic: Any new origin theories on the "Big Six" under DF13?  (Read 1954 times)
eochaidh
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« on: September 10, 2012, 05:35:34 PM »

Well, it's a Monday, a good time to start a new topic.

Does anyone have any new origin theories on the six main subclades under DF13? I know that information is in flux right now, but certainly some have ideas. I'm most interested in DF49+ because I'm DF23+, M222-, but I find it all interesting.

Let's start... All Continental origin , or any from The Isles and if so, where?

Okay, I'll start... I'll guess DF49 originated in what is now France.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 05:36:27 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2012, 05:43:18 PM »

Well, it's a Monday, a good time to start a new topic.

Does anyone have any new origin theories on the six main subclades under DF13? I know that information is in flux right now, but certainly some have ideas. I'm most interested in DF49+ because I'm DF23+, M222-, but I find it all interesting.

Let's start... All Continental origin , or any from The Isles and if so, where?

Okay, I'll start... I'll guess DF49 originated in what is now France.

Now dont start :0)!  First of all what is under DF49 other than DF23?
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eochaidh
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« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2012, 05:48:25 PM »

M222 is under DF49 and DF23, but that's already been discussed.... Bavaria, England, France.... Cleveland, Guam.... :)

But has the origin of DF49 or the five other main subclades of DF13 been discussed? Not much that I've seen...
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 06:02:48 PM »

M222 is under DF49 and DF23, but that's already been discussed.... Bavaria, England, France.... Cleveland, Guam.... :)

But has the origin of DF49 or the five other main subclades of DF13 been discussed? Not much that I've seen...

DF21 is an odd one.  Its mainly isles but the P314.2 subclade has non-isles northern Europeans whose STRs show they broke off from the ancestoral line of the main isles P314.2 cluster well back in time, long before the many of the STRs of the isles cluster had gone through their various changes.  The isles cluster is not that old but the P314.2 which unites them with a few north European is Bronze Age.  The continentals include a Norwegian and Norman/Benelux guy.   I have a hunch that the origin of this group is a continental L21 line who were located on their eastern edge of the L21 distribution along the North Sea somewhere and were much later brought to the isles by Norwegian Vikings (the distribution of the clades is incredibly maritime all along the Scottish and Irish west coasts and involving tons of unconnected surnames).  However, its a hunch that I wouldnt bet money on. 

That is P314.2 though.  All I would suggest is that if it seems to have an ancient continental branch while the isles members are largely a historic era cluster then that could implay a continental origin of DF21 even though this seems far from obvious by the sample at present. 
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eochaidh
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 08:32:17 AM »

I suppose the best guess at the moment must be the area that is now known as France for all of the Big Six Subclades of DF13. There doesn't seem to be any disagreement.
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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 02:30:51 PM »

I suppose the best guess at the moment must be the area that is now known as France for all of the Big Six Subclades of DF13. There doesn't seem to be any disagreement.

Miles just posted this in another thread but this is probably where it should be discussed.

France is the only logical origin for DF13 and all of its subclades.

I don't see where you explained your logic. Please explain.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 02:31:58 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2012, 02:55:25 PM »

I suppose the best guess at the moment must be the area that is now known as France for all of the Big Six Subclades of DF13. There doesn't seem to be any disagreement.

Miles just posted this in another thread but this is probably where it should be discussed.

France is the only logical origin for DF13 and all of its subclades.

I don't see where you explained your logic. Please explain.
Here's why.

The number of each French result should be multipied by approxiamtely 100 (per Alan), and the amount of French results are large. Plus The Isles is over sampled. It has always been accepted that most movements are from east to west and archaeological evidence shows great movements like La Tene going west into The Isles. Other than the movement of Britons from southwest Britain to Amorica, there is no evidence of movement out of The Isles to the Continent. Well, some Irish guys have posted stuff about Irish movements to the Continent (including me), but no one takes it seriously.

Unless someone can explain how the French results could have migrated to France, then France must be the origin.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2012, 03:45:31 PM »

Miles you have made your point.  You dont have to keep making it.  People did move in all sorts of directions and some people are descendants of isles migrants to the continent.  However, a lot of people are more interested in finding the continental origins of the people of the isles in prehistory.  That is why this is what is normally discussed mostly. Are you not interested in the deeper origins of the Irish?

PS If you can explain why a simple count makes more sense than hits per sample (percentage) then please do.  The sample is so hugely biased to isles ancestry by a factor of a couple of decimal points compared to any continental country this simply has to be allowed for.  If you think this is not the case then I would love to understand your logic.  You dont seem to like this but its a fact. 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 03:46:53 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2012, 03:51:04 PM »

Miles you have made your point.  You dont have to keep making it.  People did move in all sorts of directions and some people are descendants of isles migrants to the continent.  However, a lot of people are more interested in finding the continental origins of the people of the isles in prehistory.  That is why this is what is normally discussed mostly. Are you not interested in the deeper origins of the Irish?

PS If you can explain why a simple count makes more sense than hits per sample (percentage) then please do.  The sample is so hugely biased to isles ancestry by a factor of a couple of decimal points compared to any continental country this simply has to be allowed for.  If you think this is not the case then I would love to understand your logic.  You dont seem to like this but its a fact. 

You have just agreed with everything I have said. We obviously agree. France is the origin of DF23 and its subclades. My logic is your logic.
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2012, 04:15:40 PM »

Miles you have made your point.  You dont have to keep making it.  People did move in all sorts of directions and some people are descendants of isles migrants to the continent.  However, a lot of people are more interested in finding the continental origins of the people of the isles in prehistory.  That is why this is what is normally discussed mostly. Are you not interested in the deeper origins of the Irish?

PS If you can explain why a simple count makes more sense than hits per sample (percentage) then please do.  The sample is so hugely biased to isles ancestry by a factor of a couple of decimal points compared to any continental country this simply has to be allowed for.  If you think this is not the case then I would love to understand your logic.  You dont seem to like this but its a fact.  

You have just agreed with everything I have said. We obviously agree. France is the origin of DF23 and its subclades. My logic is your logic.

Thats your sarcastic logic.  I have never said that.  I dont think I have ever said anything concrete about DF23 on the continent.  How many people have been tested for L23 on average per continental country.  I bet it is incredibly low.  I dont have an opion on L23 or any of the other downstream clades because its impossible to come to any conclusion until some sort of continental study is done that includes L23. Anyway I am not taking the bait again.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 04:16:37 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2012, 04:33:09 PM »

Miles you have made your point.  You dont have to keep making it.  People did move in all sorts of directions and some people are descendants of isles migrants to the continent.  However, a lot of people are more interested in finding the continental origins of the people of the isles in prehistory.  That is why this is what is normally discussed mostly. Are you not interested in the deeper origins of the Irish?

PS If you can explain why a simple count makes more sense than hits per sample (percentage) then please do.  The sample is so hugely biased to isles ancestry by a factor of a couple of decimal points compared to any continental country this simply has to be allowed for.  If you think this is not the case then I would love to understand your logic.  You dont seem to like this but its a fact.  

You have just agreed with everything I have said. We obviously agree. France is the origin of DF23 and its subclades. My logic is your logic.

Thats your sarcastic logic.  I have never said that.  I dont think I have ever said anything concrete about DF23 on the continent.  How many people have been tested for L23 on average per continental country.  I bet it is incredibly low.  I dont have an opion on L23 or any of the other downstream clades because its impossible to come to any conclusion until some sort of continental study is done that includes L23. Anyway I am not taking the bait again.
I think you mean DF23 when you post L23. The number of DF23+, M222- found in France is 5 which is equal to approximately 500. There is also one from Italy, but I don't know how that should be multiplied.

How could 500 lines of DF23 (so far) have migrated to the Continent from The Isles? That just doesn't seem possible. They aren't all in Brittany or Normandy. I think one is near La Rochelle and one is in the southeast. France or Italy have to be the origin. One or two lines from The Isle, maybe. 500? Never. And that's 500 so far!
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« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2012, 06:02:52 PM »

... Well, some Irish guys have posted stuff about Irish movements to the Continent (including me), but no one takes it seriously.

Unless someone can explain how the French results could have migrated to France, then France must be the origin.
I added the bold and underline.

The way I interpret your statements about France being the origin is sarcasm. (The use of irony to mock or convey contempt.)  Am I wrong to consider your statements sarcastic?

I don't know if you realize this, but I think most of the posters on L21 here will acknowledge there could be and should be Irish lineages that moved to the continent over the years.  However, I don't think that proves that all L21 or all DF13 appearances on the continent, or in Scandinavia, are the result of migrations of Irishmen. Do you see the difference?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 06:09:32 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2012, 06:19:19 PM »

... Well, some Irish guys have posted stuff about Irish movements to the Continent (including me), but no one takes it seriously.

Unless someone can explain how the French results could have migrated to France, then France must be the origin.
I added the bold and underline.

The way I interpret your statements about France being the origin is sarcasm. (The use of irony to mock or convey contempt.)  Am I wrong to consider your statements sarcastic?

I don't know if you realize this, but I think most of the posters on L21 here will acknowledge there could be and should be Irish lineages that moved to the continent over the years.  However, I don't think that proves that all L21 or all DF13 appearances on the continent, or in Scandinavia, are the result of migrations of Irishmen. Do you see the difference?

I am completely serious about the origin of DF13, and all subclades, being France.

As Alan has pointed out, each French result is equal to approximately 100 actual results. So, if even one (1) result for any clade or subclade is found in France you'd have to explain away 100 French lines to migration from The Isles. In the case of DF23, M222-, you'd need to explain away 500 (5) French results and one (1) Italian result which could be equal to 50 or more actual results (I don't know Alan's formula for Italian results). I do not think it is possible to explain 500 French lines of DF23+, M222- to migration from The Isles. Remember, more French results are bound to be found. Ten (10) more French results equal approximately 1,000 French lines.

As soon as one L226+ is found in France, that will be 100 French lines of L226+ that will need to be explained away as migration from The Isles. How could that be done?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 06:23:24 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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Dubhthach
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« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2012, 07:12:14 PM »

Personally I'd love some French DF41+ cousins but hey that's just me.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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rms2
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« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2012, 08:38:25 PM »

Personally I'd love some French DF41+ cousins but hey that's just me.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I suspect we'll get some. I take the Breton origin story of the Stewarts seriously, but, of course, their Breton ancestor might have been descended from an immediate post-Roman Period British refugee to Armorica.

Time and some French DF41+ results will tell.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 08:48:59 PM by rms2 » Logged

Heber
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« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2012, 03:46:35 AM »

When I plot the "Big Six" under DF13, I get a strong Gaelic signal. I have uses various shades of green to represent Gaelic with deeper green suggesting a stronger Gaelic signal. Scottish Gaelic are also shown as green. Iberian or Atlantic facade are shown as various shades of yellow and red. DF41 is a facinating case and it will be interesting to see a "French" SNP downstream or a largely Gaelic tree.

Reading Cunliffes latest book "Britian Begins" he builds a very strong and convincing argument for the Atlantic Facade networks from the earliest Mesolithic settlers, through early Neolithic, Megalithic, Copper, Bronze and Iron ages. The latest Patterson study also suggests a Bell Beaker expansion out of Iberia circa 3,600 BP.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763708372/
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R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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rms2
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« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2012, 03:58:42 AM »

One thing Alan has mentioned on other threads, and I have talked about in the past, with accompanying stats from FTDNA, is the drastic disparity in our y-dna databases between the Isles and the Continent. It is regularly and routinely ignored or underestimated in this forum and others.

L21 and its clades have the potential to look a lot more Gaelic or British than they really are because of this fact.

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k.o.gran
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« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2012, 05:24:12 AM »

As Alan has pointed out, each French result is equal to approximately 100 actual results. So, if even one (1) result for any clade or subclade is found in France you'd have to explain away 100 French lines to migration from The Isles.

I think you are taking the number 100 a bit too literally. One result alone doesn't necessarily mean anything. I am a Norwegian and I am DF63. That doesn't necessarily mean there are a lot of Norwegian DF63s. As it happens, I have an ancestor from Scotland within genealogical timeframes so I can actually prove that my DF63 comes from Scotland. If that Scot had been born 200 years earlier (before genealogical records), I would still have believed it to be plausible that one person brought the DF63 SNP in my line to Norway. I would not have taken it as evidence that there are hundreds of DF63 lines in Norway.

However, if we look at the distribution of known DF63+ results we get the following list (I'm counting one per surname):

Scotland: 3
England: 3
France: 2
Spain: 2

Within L21 with what we know about distribution of current testing I would find it very plausible that DF63 is more common on mainland Europe than on the Isles. I'm not going to conclude that the ratio is 6 to 400.

I know DF63 is not a SNP under DF13 (regarding the topic of this thread) but it's the one I know best, so I used it as an example.

-Kai
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« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2012, 11:13:37 AM »



... Well, some Irish guys have posted stuff about Irish movements to the Continent (including me), but no one takes it seriously.

Unless someone can explain how the French results could have migrated to France, then France must be the origin.
...

The way I interpret your statements about France being the origin is sarcasm. (The use of irony to mock or convey contempt.)  Am I wrong to consider your statements sarcastic?

I don't know if you realize this, but I think most of the posters on L21 here will acknowledge there could be and should be Irish lineages that moved to the continent over the years.  However, I don't think that proves that all L21 or all DF13 appearances on the continent, or in Scandinavia, are the result of migrations of Irishmen. Do you see the difference?

I am completely serious about the origin of DF13, and all subclades, being France. ...

I think it follows then that you have changed your old position, "about Irish movements to the Continent" being the rationale for most or all L21 on the European continent.  At least that is the way I interpreted your former position. If my interpretation is wrong please correct me.

Are you saying that none of the DF13 and its subclades in France are from the British Isles? or just none are from Ireland?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 11:21:37 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2012, 11:54:13 AM »



... Well, some Irish guys have posted stuff about Irish movements to the Continent (including me), but no one takes it seriously.

Unless someone can explain how the French results could have migrated to France, then France must be the origin.
...

The way I interpret your statements about France being the origin is sarcasm. (The use of irony to mock or convey contempt.)  Am I wrong to consider your statements sarcastic?

I don't know if you realize this, but I think most of the posters on L21 here will acknowledge there could be and should be Irish lineages that moved to the continent over the years.  However, I don't think that proves that all L21 or all DF13 appearances on the continent, or in Scandinavia, are the result of migrations of Irishmen. Do you see the difference?

I am completely serious about the origin of DF13, and all subclades, being France. ...

I think it follows then that you have changed your old position, "about Irish movements to the Continent" being the rationale for most or all L21 on the European continent.  At least that is the way I interpreted your former position. If my interpretation is wrong please correct me.

Are you saying that none of the DF13 and its subclades in France are from the British Isles? or just none are from Ireland?


I never said Irish migration accounted for most L21+ on the Continent. I have said, as have others, that the many recorded Irish movements to the Continent have accounted for some of the L21+ on the Continent. Plus, very early on I said that I thought small family groups migrating from The Isles during the Beaker period may have accounted for some L21+ on the Continent. Actually, this idea a smaller migrations seems to have caught on. I also early on was a proponent of a bustling Atlantic sea trade, including The Isles and the Bay of Biscay area.

I am saying that none of the subclades of DF13+ have an origin in The Isles. DF13+ and ALL of its subclades originated in the area now known as France. Each and every subclade will eventually find a result on the Continent and/or France. Each result will be equal to 100 actual results (100 male lines), which will be impossible to explain away as being part of any Irish migration and/or British migration. Oh, if the result is found in Brittany, a case could be made that it's British, but 100 lines per result? Unlikely.

To repeat, DF13+ and ALL of its subclades originated in France.
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« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2012, 01:48:58 PM »

From what I gather recently, you should look for the region an old P312 subclade is most frequent today and it may be the source of that subclade. Or it might not.
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« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2012, 02:23:57 PM »

...
I never said Irish migration accounted for most L21+ on the Continent. I have said, as have others, that the many recorded Irish movements to the Continent have accounted for some of the L21+ on the Continent. Plus, very early on I said that I thought small family groups migrating from The Isles during the Beaker period may have accounted for some L21+ on the Continent. Actually, this idea a smaller migrations seems to have caught on. I also early on was a proponent of a bustling Atlantic sea trade, including The Isles and the Bay of Biscay area.

I agree. I don't know how much migration there was but no doubt there was some, during each of those scenarios. How much survived until today is a harder question.

...
I am saying that none of the subclades of DF13+ have an origin in The Isles. DF13+ and ALL of its subclades originated in the area now known as France. Each and every subclade will eventually find a result on the Continent and/or France. Each result will be equal to 100 actual results (100 male lines), which will be impossible to explain away as being part of any Irish migration and/or British migration. Oh, if the result is found in Brittany, a case could be made that it's British, but 100 lines per result? Unlikely.

To repeat, DF13+ and ALL of its subclades originated in France.

It appears you are basing your logic partially on frequency. I don't think high frequency or high absolute numbers are necessarily indicators of origin. You might be right if you are saying DF13 and the Bix Six subclades all originated in France. I doubt if all the lesser subclades under DF13 originated in France but we have very limited data on the lesser subclades. L226 is a good example of a subclade that has a limited distribution range, primarily Munster.

The English channel is not that wide so I could see a lot happening on either side of it.  I'm not sure where the home base for the first large L21 expansion was.  Perhaps that is a bigger question to ask. I don't think the Low Countries or the Rhine Valley could be ruled out, to go along with N/NW France or right across the channel on the English coast.  I guess this sounds like Rhenish Bell Beaker stuff again.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 02:47:03 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2012, 02:42:01 PM »

Niall Noigiallach was born in Ireland around 1700 ybp. Was he the first person to have the M222 SNP?
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« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2012, 02:44:43 PM »

Niall Noigiallach was born in Ireland around 1700 ybp. Was he the first person to have the M222 SNP?
That would be quite stroke of luck if out of all the people that lived in the area over the ages, if he was the one that M222 occurred in.
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« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2012, 02:50:38 PM »

Niall Noigiallach was born in Ireland around 1700 ybp. Was he the first person to have the M222 SNP?


No it seems, the issue seems to be that when M222 was found it was found to be predominant in Ui Niall surnames (Gallagher, Doherty, Boyle etc), Niall was mentioned and he was a good face for the snp.
When more tests were done it was found outside the Ui Niall lineage both inside and outside Ireland. Recent STR variance seems to suggest it originated in North England or Scotland and somehow got its way into an Irish dynasty and was spread by Niall or a Niall like figure (could have been in Ireland for a bit before it too off in a big way).
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