World Families Forums - Barry Cunliffe, Britain Begins, out on Kindle

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 26, 2014, 07:43:44 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Barry Cunliffe, Britain Begins, out on Kindle
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Barry Cunliffe, Britain Begins, out on Kindle  (Read 2396 times)
Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« on: September 10, 2012, 10:42:00 AM »

Barry Cunliffe, Britain Begins, due out in hardback October 2012. Out in Kindle edition

Quote
The last Ice Age, which came to an end about 12,000 years ago, swept the bands of hunter gatherers from the face of the land that was to become Britain and Ireland, but as the ice sheets retreated and the climate improved so human groups spread slowly northwards, re-colonizing the land that had been laid waste. From that time onwards Britain and Ireland have been continuously inhabited and the resident population has increased from a few hundreds to more than 60 million. Britain Begins is nothing less than the story of the origins of the British and the Irish peoples, from around 10,000BC to the eve of the Norman Conquest. Using the most up to date archaeological evidence together with new work on DNA and other scientific techniques which help us to trace the origins and movements of these early settlers, Barry Cunliffe offers a rich narrative account of the first islanders - who they were, where they came from, and how they interacted one with another. Underlying this narrative throughout is the story of the sea, which allowed the islanders and their continental neighbours to be in constant contact. The story told by the archaeological evidence, in later periods augmented by historical texts, satisfies our need to know who we are and where we come from. But before the development of the discipline of archaeology, people used what scraps there were, gleaned from Biblical and classical texts, to create a largely mythological origin for the British. Britain Begins also explores the development of these early myths, which show our ancestors attempting to understand their origins. And, as Cunliffe shows, today's archaeologists are driven by the same desire to understand the past - the only real difference is that we have vastly more evidence to work with.

Prof. Cunliffe has done his usual brilliant job of popularisation without sacrificing accuracy. His lucid handling of the data from multiple disciplines is a joy to behold. Unlike authors obsessed with continuity, he talks happily about our mongrel race and discusses the various migrations that went into the mixture. I'm afraid that the claim of using new work on DNA is not really born out. If anyone is expecting an early look at the results from the People of the British Isles project - no joy. But for a lovely read with attractive illustrations, it is the goods.
Logged
Heber
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2012, 10:56:17 AM »

Jean,
Thanks for posting. That is one I will definately download. BTY will you attend his upcoming lecture in Bradford on Celts in the West.


Celts in the West

Barry Cunliffe (University of Oxford)

 17:15, 2 October 2012, Bradford.
Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2012, 11:47:08 AM »

I don't think I can make the lecture or book launch or whatever it is.
Logged
inver2b1
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99


« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 12:01:45 PM »

How much does he go into the genetic evidence, and how up to date is it?
Logged

I-L126
H3
SEJJ
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 50


« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2012, 01:21:51 PM »

Looks worth a read, will be buying that.
Logged

Y-DNA: I1*
MT-DNA: U5a1b4
       
Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2012, 01:26:58 PM »

He says very little about the DNA, which is just as well, since the sources he cites in the bibliography are Sykes and Oppenheimer. The fact is that we have next to no reliable ancient DNA from early periods in Britain. He is aware of the problems of trying to make sense of modern DNA.

For the Neolithic for example, he says:

Quote
The archaeological evidence strongly suggests that there was a significant influx of population into Britain and Ireland in the century or two around 4000 BC, one stream, probably the most numerous, coming from north-eastern France and Belgium across the eastern Channel– south North Sea, the other from Armorica or western France along the Atlantic seaways.... While it must be admitted that there are considerable areas of doubt, not least caused by attempting to date the origins of distinctive gene lines, there is broad agreement that three maternal gene groups (J, T1, and U3), arriving from the Near East at about the onset of the Neolithic, can be identified among the European population.... The paternal lines are even more complex and difficult to interpret, but it does seem possible to identify a central European genetic stream, I1a, coming ultimately from the Near East, and several haplotypes, I1b-2, E3b, and J2, which may have originated in the Mediterranean, echoing the evidence of the maternal lines.

Presumably he means Y-DNA haplogroups I2a1-P37.2, E-V13 and J2. I1b-2 and E3b are old names, but I can't remember what SNPs they fitted.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 01:27:35 PM by Jean M » Logged
Mkk
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2012, 01:51:07 PM »

What does he say about the Anglo Saxons and Vikings?

If he's citing Oppenheimer and Sykes then he'll probably think their impact was largely cultural.

I wouldn't call the British a mongrel race. You have the original Celtic peoples plus Neolithic farmers plus Mesolithic peoples (I2?) and then the Anglo-Saxons, Vikings and Normans who were basically the same people within a few hundred years of each other.

Logged
Castlebob
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 216


« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2012, 02:02:19 PM »

Thanks for the tip, Jean.
At the risk of repeating myself, I'd like to hear what people such as Sykes & Oppenheimer have to say now re their past analysis. It'd be useful to know exactly which parts of their older theories they believe still stand up.
Bob
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2012, 03:10:06 PM »

What does he say about the Anglo Saxons and Vikings? If he's citing Oppenheimer and Sykes then he'll probably think their impact was largely cultural.

He's not that fooled by them. Fact is they were just following archaeological fashion. And fashion has changed.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 03:18:16 PM by Jean M » Logged
Mkk
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2012, 03:10:40 PM »

Quote
I'd like to hear what people such as Sykes & Oppenheimer have to say now re their past analysis.
I don't know about Sykes, but in Oppenheimer's latest appearance (on a BBC documentary) he seemed to still hold all the stuff he said in this 2006 book.
Logged
Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2012, 03:13:11 PM »

Quote
I'd like to hear what people such as Sykes & Oppenheimer have to say now re their past analysis.
I don't know about Sykes, but in Oppenheimer's latest appearance (on a BBC documentary) he seemed to still hold all the stuff he said in this 2006 book.

Neither of them seems to be at all willing to entertain the idea that science has moved on without them. They crystallised their ideas too soon. Barry Cunliffe by contrast is a true scientist and scholar. He is always ready to follow the evidence.  
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 03:16:14 PM by Jean M » Logged
Arch Y.
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 292


« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2012, 03:24:42 PM »

Barry Cunliffe, Britain Begins, due out in hardback October 2012. Out in Kindle edition

Quote
The last Ice Age, which came to an end about 12,000 years ago, swept the bands of hunter gatherers from the face of the land that was to become Britain and Ireland, but as the ice sheets retreated and the climate improved so human groups spread slowly northwards, re-colonizing the land that had been laid waste. From that time onwards Britain and Ireland have been continuously inhabited and the resident population has increased from a few hundreds to more than 60 million. Britain Begins is nothing less than the story of the origins of the British and the Irish peoples, from around 10,000BC to the eve of the Norman Conquest. Using the most up to date archaeological evidence together with new work on DNA and other scientific techniques which help us to trace the origins and movements of these early settlers, Barry Cunliffe offers a rich narrative account of the first islanders - who they were, where they came from, and how they interacted one with another. Underlying this narrative throughout is the story of the sea, which allowed the islanders and their continental neighbours to be in constant contact. The story told by the archaeological evidence, in later periods augmented by historical texts, satisfies our need to know who we are and where we come from. But before the development of the discipline of archaeology, people used what scraps there were, gleaned from Biblical and classical texts, to create a largely mythological origin for the British. Britain Begins also explores the development of these early myths, which show our ancestors attempting to understand their origins. And, as Cunliffe shows, today's archaeologists are driven by the same desire to understand the past - the only real difference is that we have vastly more evidence to work with.

Prof. Cunliffe has done his usual brilliant job of popularisation without sacrificing accuracy. His lucid handling of the data from multiple disciplines is a joy to behold. Unlike authors obsessed with continuity, he talks happily about our mongrel race and discusses the various migrations that went into the mixture. I'm afraid that the claim of using new work on DNA is not really born out. If anyone is expecting an early look at the results from the People of the British Isles project - no joy. But for a lovely read with attractive illustrations, it is the goods.

Thanks Jean,
It will be a nice first book for the new 8.9 HD Kindle Fire. Looking forward to it.
Arch
Logged
avalon
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 176


« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2012, 03:44:27 PM »

What does he say about the Anglo Saxons and Vikings?

If he's citing Oppenheimer and Sykes then he'll probably think their impact was largely cultural.

I wouldn't call the British a mongrel race. You have the original Celtic peoples plus Neolithic farmers plus Mesolithic peoples (I2?) and then the Anglo-Saxons, Vikings and Normans who were basically the same people within a few hundred years of each other.



I'm not sure. I think the Brtitish are more mixed than the groups you mention. I mean surely the Belgae and  Romans must have had some genetic input and to me "Celtic people" is a broad term if we accept the first ones arrived in the Bronze age. Surely there were different groups of Celtic speakers who arrived in Britain at different times and from different places?

By the way, is Mesolithic I2 the same as the very old "Wodans" that Sykes mentions in his book? Which y-dna dating methods are we using to suggest mesolithic for I2?

Thanks
Logged
Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2012, 04:51:18 PM »

By the way, is Mesolithic I2 the same as the very old "Wodans" that Sykes mentions in his book? Which y-dna dating methods are we using to suggest mesolithic for I2?

That is not Mesolithic. That is one of the haplogroups Barry Cunliffe lists for the Neolithic. At least I think that is the one he means. It is all confused by his use of old nomenclature.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 04:53:15 PM by Jean M » Logged
inver2b1
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99


« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2012, 05:05:09 PM »

I was hoping he'd at least be using findings as recent as L21. Us primitives who still use bindings of vellum parchment have to wait until November for the manuscript.
Logged

I-L126
H3
avalon
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 176


« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2012, 04:35:21 AM »

By the way, is Mesolithic I2 the same as the very old "Wodans" that Sykes mentions in his book? Which y-dna dating methods are we using to suggest mesolithic for I2?

That is not Mesolithic. That is one of the haplogroups Barry Cunliffe lists for the Neolithic. At least I think that is the one he means. It is all confused by his use of old nomenclature.

That's what I thought.

So, is the consensus now, if we ignore Sykes and Oppenheimer, that no Mesolithic Y-DNA lines have survived in modern Britain?

What about mtDNA? It appears that nobody is either able or willing to use modern mtDNA to infer prehistoric population movements of women. I gather it is harder to do. Could Mesolithic female lines have survived in the Britain and Ireland?
Logged
Heber
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2012, 05:32:43 AM »

I was hoping he'd at least be using findings as recent as L21. Us primitives who still use bindings of vellum parchment have to wait until November for the manuscript.

You can read a fairly lengthy preview on Google Books. I downloaded the Kindle version and am very impressed. I am learning a lot more about the archealogy and history of early Britain. Unfortunately the DNA side does not appear to be up to date, however Cunliffe acknowledges that this is not his area of expertise.
Lots of interesting maps and great insights into the maritime routes into the Isles.
Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



stoneman
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 141


« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2012, 06:33:34 AM »

By the way, is Mesolithic I2 the same as the very old "Wodans" that Sykes mentions in his book? Which y-dna dating methods are we using to suggest mesolithic for I2?

That is not Mesolithic. That is one of the haplogroups Barry Cunliffe lists for the Neolithic. At least I think that is the one he means. It is all confused by his use of old nomenclature.

That's what I thought.

So, is the consensus now, if we ignore Sykes and Oppenheimer, that no Mesolithic Y-DNA lines have survived in modern Britain?

What about mtDNA? It appears that nobody is either able or willing to use modern mtDNA to infer prehistoric population movements of women. I gather it is harder to do. Could Mesolithic female lines have survived in the Britain and Ireland?

The answer is yes.I had the FGS test and my mtdna line is U5b2.
Logged
Castlebob
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 216


« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2012, 08:34:45 AM »

My mtDNA line is also U5b2, Stoneman. I have few matches. My mtDNA line goes back to Scotland 1806. My matches are Scottish & Irish. I've scarcely researched the history of U5b2, but wondered briefly if it could be Pictish? I dare say you have gone further?
Cheers,
Bob
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 10:53:37 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
Bren123
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 209


« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2012, 09:34:54 AM »

What does he say about the Anglo Saxons and Vikings? If he's citing Oppenheimer and Sykes then he'll probably think their impact was largely cultural.

He's not that fooled by them. Fact is they were just following archaeological fashion. And fashion has changed.

Does this mean that the anti-migrationist paradigm has been finally dropped?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 09:47:28 AM by Bren123 » Logged

LDJ
Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2012, 10:51:35 AM »

Does this mean that the anti-migrationist paradigm has been finally dropped?

Paradigm change takes a long time. On migration the first stones were tossed into the pond back in the 1990s. The ripples had reached key opinion-formers in academia by the early 2000s I suppose. Ideas tend to appear first in lectures and papers, which later get worked up into books. By the middle of that decade people would have been writing the books that pointed out the problems of the anti-migrationist orthodoxy, including Barry Cunliffe's Between The Oceans (2008). We have had a burst of books 2009-2012 sounding the clarion call for change.

But there will still be plenty of key figures who are too old to change their minds. The rear-guard will go on fighting. Outside academia there will be countless people doing archaeological fieldwork who never bother to keep up with theory. Some of them would be amazed to learn that ideas have changed since they were at university in the 1980s. The trickle down to those who actually work in a particular field can take a long time. Archaeology is not unusual in that way.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 01:00:12 PM by Jean M » Logged
inver2b1
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99


« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2012, 11:00:04 AM »

I was hoping he'd at least be using findings as recent as L21. Us primitives who still use bindings of vellum parchment have to wait until November for the manuscript.

You can read a fairly lengthy preview on Google Books. I downloaded the Kindle version and am very impressed. I am learning a lot more about the archealogy and history of early Britain. Unfortunately the DNA side does not appear to be up to date, however Cunliffe acknowledges that this is not his area of expertise.
Lots of interesting maps and great insights into the maritime routes into the Isles.

Thanks, having a look now.

Jean, how does Cunliffes older books stand up these days?
Logged

I-L126
H3
avalon
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 176


« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2012, 12:35:36 PM »

By the way, is Mesolithic I2 the same as the very old "Wodans" that Sykes mentions in his book? Which y-dna dating methods are we using to suggest mesolithic for I2?

That is not Mesolithic. That is one of the haplogroups Barry Cunliffe lists for the Neolithic. At least I think that is the one he means. It is all confused by his use of old nomenclature.

That's what I thought.

So, is the consensus now, if we ignore Sykes and Oppenheimer, that no Mesolithic Y-DNA lines have survived in modern Britain?

What about mtDNA? It appears that nobody is either able or willing to use modern mtDNA to infer prehistoric population movements of women. I gather it is harder to do. Could Mesolithic female lines have survived in the Britain and Ireland?

The answer is yes.I had the FGS test and my mtdna line is U5b2.

This might be a stupid question but how do we know that your U5b2 ancestors were actually in Britain during the Mesolithic?

Your mtDNA line ancestors may have been elsewhere in Europe during the Mesolithic and then moved to Britain in the Bronze Age or later?
Logged
Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2012, 12:38:48 PM »

Jean, how does Cunliffe's older books stand up these days?

I've always enjoyed his work.  I like the way he aims for print as soon  as possible, rather than sit on available data for years. I enjoy his insights, the intellectual  flexibility that allows him to suddenly see things from a different angle. He follows the data, as good scholars should, so he happily changes his mind over time. But it is more than that. He has a gift for seeing the patterns that others might miss.  

Inevitably all this means that he could be out of date (with himself even) before a work reaches the bookshop. He will produce new editions of valuable works as more data amasses. Iron Age Communities in Britain: An account of England, Scotland and Wales from the Seventh Century BC until the Roman Conquest has been through four editions.

If you want to be sure of getting his latest views on anything, it is best to go for the latest publication, but there is still a lot of useful material in older works.
Logged
inver2b1
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99


« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2012, 01:03:54 PM »

Thanks Jean, I like the overall idea behind Facing the Ocean. I might check it out at some point.
Logged

I-L126
H3
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.098 seconds with 17 queries.