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Author Topic: If you could sequence the Full Genome+mt-DNA+Y-DNA of ancient individuals.....  (Read 2169 times)
gtc
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« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2012, 10:51:57 PM »

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If that is the case, then the Normans have nicely separated the forces for us.
In the course of human endeavors there is always a factor that must always be considered. Human Laziness. I am sure quite a few Norman bodies would be found amongst the English.

Where humans are involved you can never dismiss laziness, and I gather that we are talking about some 6,000 bodies overall to cope with and maybe the same number of dead horses, but I have read somewhere (I wish I could recall exactly where) that the Normans effectively left the English dead to the crows while burying their own brothers in arms.

Even if we accept that a "mixture" of bodies could be found in a mass grave, the problem is how to identify one from the other. My hope is that an identifiable Norman military burial site can be found so that at least we have a crude form of sorting done for us in advance.

[Edit: This nutty forum software rubbed out the word "d-iscount", so let's see if I'm any luckier with "dismiss". ]
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 01:35:23 AM by gtc » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
Heber
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« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2012, 05:24:36 PM »

OK, since this thread has come to life again, I would sequence King David. Mostly for his Y-DNA (and presumably the Y-DNA of his seven brothers, his son King Solomon, and the male offspring of Solomon's 700 wives and 300 concubines).

I'll guess I'll leave aside the historicity debate about whether there was a Davidic kingdom, a David, or a Solomon. But I propose someone having relations with 1000 different women would leave behind a heck of a lot of Y-DNA. Would be fascinating to know if it was R1b something or other.


As King Solomons mines are supposed to be located at Tartessos, Huevla (Rio Tinto) and this was the epicentre of Celtic from the West (Cunliffe and Koch) and the expansion of Bell Beakers in Europe 3,600 BP (Patterson) what comes to mind is a founder effect. I doubt if King David and Solomon remains are extant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessos


Wasn't sure if we had to suggest someone whose remains exist. Even the First Temple ivory (well, hippo) pomegranate they dug up is in doubt. There is also this from the wikipedia entry on Tarshish:

Tarshish תַּרְשִׁישׁ occurs in the Hebrew Bible with several uncertain meanings. One of the most recurring is that Tarshish is a place, probably a city or country, that is far from Israel by sea where trade occurs with Israel and Phoenicia. The Septuagint, the Vulgate and the Targum of Jonathan render this as Carthage. But other biblical commentators read it as Tartessos in ancient Spain.

"The Phoenicians, who were based on some offshore islands near Cadiz, used Tartessan silver to pay tribute to the Assyrians who had captured their hometown of Tyre in the 7th century BCE. One result of this, it is claimed, was the collapse of the bullion market in Babylon. And yet apart from the mines of Rio Tinto which have been producing copper and silver and gold for 5000 years - the oldest mines in the world still to be in production - there is no evidence of this wealth nor what it bought or built.
The Ancient Hebrews had their own myths of the fabulous and even sinful wealth of Tartessos or Tarshish as they called it. In Psalm 72 we can read of the kings of Tarshish bringing presents, in Jonah we can see how Jonah's plans to go to Tarshish so infuriated the Lord that he had Jonah swallowed by a whale as a punishment. In Chronicles, we read of King Jehosaphat building ships to go to Tarshish and the fury of the Lord causing them to be wrecked. In Kings we read of ships of Tartshish bringing the gold to decorate the Palace and the Temple of King Solomon, and in Kings and in Chronicles we can read of these same Ships of Tarshish bringing Peacocks and Apes and Ivory, which can only have been from India!
So not only was Tarshish/Tartessos a legendary place but also their ships were legendary and capable of crossing the Indian Ocean. Tarshish is in fact the only European place mentioned in the Old Testament, yet apart from the 5000-year-old mining town, suggestively named Tharsis, in Andalusia in Southern Spain, nobody knows where Tarshish/Tartessos was located.
Yet it is here in Andalusia that the Pillars of Hercules are located and here that Hercules/Heracles stole the Cattle of Geryon as one of his Ten Labours. And this is the home of the Spanish cult of the Bull as much as Knossos, buried under modern day Heraklion, was the home of the Minoan cult of the Bull. And it is almost certain that the Minoans traded in Tartessan Bronze for over 2000 years, supplying the Sumerians and the Ancient Egyptians and indeed the whole of the Mediterranean basin and beyond."

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/t/tartessos.html


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brunetmj
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« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2012, 08:20:04 PM »

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Even if we accept that a "mixture" of bodies could be found in a mass grave, the problem is how to identify one from the other. My hope is that an identifiable Norman military burial site can be found so that at least we have a crude form of sorting done for us in advance.
Very good point. I imagined the knights would be buried with honors at a separate site but pikemen , and other lowly foot soldiers were buried were they fell - but your right - no way to tell the difference.
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« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2012, 12:50:48 PM »

So not only was Tarshish/Tartessos a legendary place but also their ships were legendary and capable of crossing the Indian Ocean. Tarshish is in fact the only European place mentioned in the Old Testament, yet apart from the 5000-year-old mining town, suggestively named Tharsis, in Andalusia in Southern Spain, nobody knows where Tarshish/Tartessos was located.
Yet it is here in Andalusia that the Pillars of Hercules are located and here that Hercules/Heracles stole the Cattle of Geryon as one of his Ten Labours. And this is the home of the Spanish cult of the Bull as much as Knossos, buried under modern day Heraklion, was the home of the Minoan cult of the Bull. And it is almost certain that the Minoans traded in Tartessan Bronze for over 2000 years, supplying the Sumerians and the Ancient Egyptians and indeed the whole of the Mediterranean basin and beyond."

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/t/tartessos.html


Could Tarshish = Atlantis be a viable proposition?


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Heber
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« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2012, 01:24:03 PM »

So not only was Tarshish/Tartessos a legendary place but also their ships were legendary and capable of crossing the Indian Ocean. Tarshish is in fact the only European place mentioned in the Old Testament, yet apart from the 5000-year-old mining town, suggestively named Tharsis, in Andalusia in Southern Spain, nobody knows where Tarshish/Tartessos was located.
Yet it is here in Andalusia that the Pillars of Hercules are located and here that Hercules/Heracles stole the Cattle of Geryon as one of his Ten Labours. And this is the home of the Spanish cult of the Bull as much as Knossos, buried under modern day Heraklion, was the home of the Minoan cult of the Bull. And it is almost certain that the Minoans traded in Tartessan Bronze for over 2000 years, supplying the Sumerians and the Ancient Egyptians and indeed the whole of the Mediterranean basin and beyond."

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/t/tartessos.html


Could Tarshish = Atlantis be a viable proposition?




Tartessos is quoted in antiquity by the classical scholars including Greeks, Romans, Assyrians and Hebrews, ranging from Aristotle, Cicero, Hecataeus, Herodotus, Livy, Ovid, Pliny the Elder, Seneca, Strabo, Theopompus and biblical references from Genesis, Kings, Chronicles, Psalm, Jeremiah, Jonah.

There are many theories about the inspiration for Atlantis including the following in proximity to Tartesos, neither of which is taken very seriously:

"In 2011, a team, working on a documentary for the National Geographic Channel,[56] led by Professor Richard Freund from the University of Hartford, claimed to have found evidence of Atlantis in southwestern Andalusia.[57] The team identified its possible location within the marshlands of the Doñana National Park, in the area that once was the Lacus Ligustinus,[58] between the Huelva, Cádiz and Seville provinces, and speculated that Atlantis had been destroyed by a tsunami,[59] extrapolating results from a previous study by Spanish researchers, published four years earlier.[60]"

"A similar theory had previously been put forward by a German researcher, Rainer W. Kühne, but based only on satellite imagery and placing Atlantis in the Marismas de Hinojos, north of the city of Cádiz.[62] Before that, the historian Adolf Schulten had stated in the 1920s that Plato had used Tartessos as the basis for his Atlantis myth.[63"]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 02:40:22 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
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