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alan trowel hands.
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« on: September 09, 2012, 11:02:09 AM »

Dienekes recently described it as follows:


Previous ADMIXTURE experiments have shown that the Basques differ from the Indo-European speaking Europeans primarily due to a lack of a "West Asian" genetic component most strongly represented on the highlands of West Asia, from Anatolia and the Caucasus through Iran to Baluchistan.

Now, this does clearly have some resemblance to the zone of upstream R1b.  Dienekes also dates it to around the same time as R1b is rising.  We also know R1b did not benefit from the initial farming spread, apparently having a structure suggestive of a marginal position to the demographic advantages of a successful farming culture in a farming-frienldy environment.  It is argued by many that R1b and IE are intrusive into Anatolia.  That leaves the remainder which could be described as the southern fringes of the steppes.  Does anyone think that this component in the latter area could be some sort of upland refuge for elements that were formerly on the steppe prior to the constant sweeping of the area by new groups and ultimately by the Slavs?  Or perhaps it was always an intermediate zone between the strong farming cultures to the south and the steppes people, forming a kind of go-between zone.  

I really think Dienekes is on to something here.  I think his term 'west Asian' may be putting people off because I think some are taking this to mean early Neolithic Anatolian groups.  However, if it is linked to R1b and IE then this is the wrong way to look at it.  R1b could not have been in Anatolia, one of the earliest areas of farming and must have drifted into that area from at least a little to the north in the highland zone or beyond.  So, I think there is a strong case that Dienekes has identified the modest autosomal component that is a relic of Indo-Europeanisation of much or Europe but we have to be careful how this is interpreted.  

It could be interpreted as a displaced southern steppe, Black Sea shore, near-steppe highland group that is tied into some phase of the steppes expansion.  There were many other groups on and on the southern interface of the steppes other than Yamnaya who may have spoken related languages.  I think there is a case that R1b and a  of this west Asian component was present on the western and southern edges of the steppes while R1a was slightly to the east in the origin point of the Yamnaya culture.  When the latter expanded the other groups may have also moved too to the west and the southern upland zone south of the steppes (perhaps in complex stages).  A near-Black Sea, southern steppes or sub-steppe highands location for R1b would also make sense as there is more than a hint that it was sea-adapted and have naval skills.  The use of boats could have set them apart from the mainstream R1a/Yamnaya element.  

A position on the southern fringe of the steppes also would have made them more agricultrally adapted.  Together the more agriculturally adapted economy, the use of maritime skills, the proximity to a zone of skilled metalworking and mountain area containing ores in the caucuses and a slightly different starting point could account for the differences in the movements of R1a and R1b.  

PS The modern population of Ukraine and the steppes is probably an unusually poor guide of the copper age population given the many upheavals and changes of language in that area.  

  
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 11:03:24 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
princenuadha
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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2012, 02:18:14 PM »

dienekes puts far too much emphasis on "west asian". (That's what turns me off). We don't actually know that "West Asian" is 'real'. "Caucasian" could be the 'real' component and it was already found in otzi.
Quote
It could be interpreted as a displaced southern steppe, Black Sea shore, near-steppe highland group that is tied into some phase of the steppes expansion.

I think I know what you're saying. If so I agree. Why does dienekes put so much weight on a smaller component.  Multiple sources have suggested that the biggest change in bronze age Europe was the return of mesolithic heritage. Even dienekes 'models' show this. So if IE migrations caused that, they must have been high in Meso European for most the time, not west Asian.

Furthermore, its silly to think that the "West Asian" in Europe had to come from West Asia. That's like claiming "North European" came from Lithuania...

In short, "west asian" should not be the center focus that it is. Incidentally, I've never heard a formal study refer to it : )

Quote
A position on the southern fringe of the steppes also would have made them more agricultrally adapted. Together the more agriculturally adapted economy, the use of maritime skills, the proximity to a zone of skilled metalworking and mountain area containing ores in the caucuses and a slightly different starting point could account for the differences in the movements of R1a and R1b.

A very plausible theory. Good job!

« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 02:28:29 PM by princenuadha » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2012, 06:29:31 PM »

Are you or Dienkes saying that the West Asian score may represent R1b ans IE? If so, R1b is pretty high in the area where Basque is spoken, so how did they get the R1b and not the IE?

Also, West Asian scores are relatively low in places like Ireland, which is stuffed with R1b. I took the West Asian scores of seven native Irish people from Leinster that I got from running them through Gedmatch Dodecad V3 and found the average was 7.24% with the highest being 9.57% You would certainly find higher West Asian scores in areas southeast of Ireland with lower R1b.

When I ran the seven Leinster people through Dodecad 12b, the scores really changed! I'm 75% Irish and 25% French-Canadian and had a West Asian score of 9.24% on Dodecad V3, but Dodecad 12b breaks it up to Caucasus and Gedrosia and I had 10.89% Caucasus and 8.71% Gedrosia. the Irish testers from Leinster averaged only 4.34% on the Caucasus score , but 10.90 on Gedrosia. So something in this test really separated me from the Irish testers, on both Caucasus and Gedrosia. My French-Canadian ancestors are mostly from Brittany, Normandy and La Rochelle... fairly high R1b areas.

Oh and the highest Irish score on West Asian in Dodecad V3 was 9.57 and that person was the lowest on Caucasus on  Dodecad 12b 2.38%

As always, I'm confused....
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 06:37:44 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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Jean M
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2012, 07:52:26 PM »

I don't think that Dienkes' West Asian component has anything to do with R1b or IE. It appears to link rather to Y-DNA J2 if anything. It probably reflects movements from Anatolia and the Levant into Europe at various times subsequent to the Neolithic.

I'm happy to have an opportunity to agree with Miles. :)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 07:54:20 PM by Jean M » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2012, 07:54:07 PM »

Are you or Dienkes saying that the West Asian score may represent R1b ans IE? If so, R1b is pretty high in the area where Basque is spoken, so how did they get the R1b and not the IE?

Also, West Asian scores are relatively low in places like Ireland, which is stuffed with R1b. I took the West Asian scores of seven native Irish people from Leinster that I got from running them through Gedmatch Dodecad V3 and found the average was 7.24% with the highest being 9.57% You would certainly find higher West Asian scores in areas southeast of Ireland with lower R1b.

When I ran the seven Leinster people through Dodecad 12b, the scores really changed! I'm 75% Irish and 25% French-Canadian and had a West Asian score of 9.24% on Dodecad V3, but Dodecad 12b breaks it up to Caucasus and Gedrosia and I had 10.89% Caucasus and 8.71% Gedrosia. the Irish testers from Leinster averaged only 4.34% on the Caucasus score , but 10.90 on Gedrosia. So something in this test really separated me from the Irish testers, on both Caucasus and Gedrosia. My French-Canadian ancestors are mostly from Brittany, Normandy and La Rochelle... fairly high R1b areas.

Oh and the highest Irish score on West Asian in Dodecad V3 was 9.57 and that person was the lowest on Caucasus on  Dodecad 12b 2.38%

As always, I'm confused....

i think though that it is possible for the y DNA lines to contribute little autosomal DNA if you are talking about very deep time.  basically MR big gets a lot of the local women when he arrives and his sons all only have half the autosomal DNA of the homeland.  This happens again and again for a few generations until everyone in the orbit of the mr Big clan is only 10% autosmally what mr Big was in the homeland.  Eventually the mr big clan start to marry other mr big descendants of 4th or 5th cousins and it kind of stabelizes at 10%.  That is how I see it happening.  

As for the Basques having so much R1b but no west Asian.  Well they are also the only R1b strong area with a non-IE language and a lack of west Asian.  Another, potentially related, non-IE people of SW Europe in late antiquity, the Sardinians, share their lack of an IE language and their lack of west asian autosomal DNA bit dont have much P312.  The common denomenator between the Basques and the Sardinians and non-IE is not R1b.  

I feel that R1b among the Basques of today might be quite late. I understand that the Basque-specific clades are late and also that the L21 cluster associated with the area is quite late too.  Of course the Baques seem to have largely shifted from Aquitania to the northern Pyrennees and adjacent coast too which confuses matters. Maybe the mixed Aquitantian and Gaulish population fled into the Pyrennees when  and a large Aquitantian population with a small Gaulish military elite led to a high R1b line but basque autosomally and linguistically population.  

I would be curous to know what the DNA of the ancient Iberians of SE Spain was like.  I am fairly convinced they were distant linguistic relations of the Aquitanians (Basques) from what I have read.  Not close but from the same ancient language family, perhaps seperated from the days that Cardial pushed though the south French rivers to leave an isolated Carial outpost in Aquitania.  That would be many 1000s of years of seperation by late antiquity so the relationship would be distant.  However, there has been far too much upheaval in the Iberian part of Spain so the modern population would be of little use and ancient DNA pre-dating 500BC would be needed.  I suspect they would appear very like the Sardinians, perhaps with more Mesolithic blood, but lackng the west asian component.  
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 07:56:15 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2012, 07:58:54 PM »

Here's some of what Dienekes wrote on the West Asian autosomal component:

Quote from: Dienekes
Here's a challenge to those who think the migration that brought R-M269 to Western Europe is not related to the arrival of the "West_Asian" autosomal component to Western Europe.

What is responsible for that component, if not R-M269.

You can't pin it on:

I: native European
E: rare in Caucasus/Anatolia
G: related apparently to early Neolithic and all pre-Beaker autosomal data points lack "West_Asian"

The only other candidate is J2, which occurs at trace elements in the British Isles and Scandinavia.

So, let's summarize:

- R-M269 came to Europe from the east.
- In all existing autosomal samples from Europe up to 5,000 BC R-M269 is lacking in Europe, and so is the "West_Asian" autosomal component
- Modern Europeans have R-M269 and "West_Asian" autosomal component. The latter occurs at ~10% in populations that have almost no other lineages of West Asian origin other than R-M269

The writing is on the wall.


From: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/05/bell-beakers-from-germany-y-haplogroup.html
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 08:00:17 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2012, 08:09:54 PM »

BTW, the Basques may be lacking in the WA component, but they do have the "Gedrosia" autosomal component.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 08:10:15 PM by rms2 » Logged

eochaidh
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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2012, 09:11:59 PM »

Here's some of what Dienekes wrote on the West Asian autosomal component:

Quote from: Dienekes
Here's a challenge to those who think the migration that brought R-M269 to Western Europe is not related to the arrival of the "West_Asian" autosomal component to Western Europe.

What is responsible for that component, if not R-M269.

You can't pin it on:

I: native European
E: rare in Caucasus/Anatolia
G: related apparently to early Neolithic and all pre-Beaker autosomal data points lack "West_Asian"

The only other candidate is J2, which occurs at trace elements in the British Isles and Scandinavia.

So, let's summarize:

- R-M269 came to Europe from the east.
- In all existing autosomal samples from Europe up to 5,000 BC R-M269 is lacking in Europe, and so is the "West_Asian" autosomal component
- Modern Europeans have R-M269 and "West_Asian" autosomal component. The latter occurs at ~10% in populations that have almost no other lineages of West Asian origin other than R-M269

The writing is on the wall.


From: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/05/bell-beakers-from-germany-y-haplogroup.html

Well, if the West Asian score comes with M269, then perhaps my having ancestors from the east coast of Ireland (Wexford) and the west coast of France Brittany, Normandy and La Rochelle) may have something to do with my high West Asian score. I have noticed in other runs that the Cornish have a higher West Asian score than most in The Isles. The Cornish are, of course, well represented genetically in Brittany.

I do have relations named Galarneau from the La Rochelle area who are J2a4.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2012, 09:19:13 PM »

Here's some of what Dienekes wrote on the West Asian autosomal component:

Quote from: Dienekes
Here's a challenge to those who think the migration that brought R-M269 to Western Europe is not related to the arrival of the "West_Asian" autosomal component to Western Europe.

What is responsible for that component, if not R-M269.

You can't pin it on:

I: native European
E: rare in Caucasus/Anatolia
G: related apparently to early Neolithic and all pre-Beaker autosomal data points lack "West_Asian"

The only other candidate is J2, which occurs at trace elements in the British Isles and Scandinavia.

So, let's summarize:

- R-M269 came to Europe from the east.
- In all existing autosomal samples from Europe up to 5,000 BC R-M269 is lacking in Europe, and so is the "West_Asian" autosomal component
- Modern Europeans have R-M269 and "West_Asian" autosomal component. The latter occurs at ~10% in populations that have almost no other lineages of West Asian origin other than R-M269

The writing is on the wall.


From: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/05/bell-beakers-from-germany-y-haplogroup.html

Looks to me like J2 is the only option for his West Asian component.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 09:41:13 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2012, 09:35:33 PM »

I think J2 is a good option. It runs about 1%-5% in The Isles and the Basque Country. It is also 1%-5% in Brittany but, runs about 6%-10% in other areas of France other than the Basque Country. So, J2 is low in areas dominated by R1b.
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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2012, 03:10:56 AM »

When I ran the seven Leinster people through Dodecad 12b, the scores really changed! I'm 75% Irish and 25% French-Canadian and had a West Asian score of 9.24% on Dodecad V3, but Dodecad 12b breaks it up to Caucasus and Gedrosia and I had 10.89% Caucasus and 8.71% Gedrosia. the Irish testers from Leinster averaged only 4.34% on the Caucasus score , but 10.90 on Gedrosia. So something in this test really separated me from the Irish testers, on both Caucasus and Gedrosia. My French-Canadian ancestors are mostly from Brittany, Normandy and La Rochelle... fairly high R1b areas.

Certainly, Dieneskes and other conceptors of analysis systems  of autosomal markers should study the markers given 10.90% on Gedrosia in Ireland again. There is probably a big problem here in the marker distribution in basic populations like Gedrosia. It was already remarked more we go to Atlantic coast, more Caucasus part decreases as normal, but  more Gedrosia part replaces Caucasus part, which is not normal. They need to re-analyse the markers which give the growing Gedrosia part in Ireland and other atlantic areas.  No reason there is a prehistorical or historical explanation to this "phenomena" which seems an artefact.

This proves their marker distribution by basic populations is not 100% right.
An other problem they don't know the dates where this basic component was created.

Is Atlantic-Med a pure component without sub-components ? Is it Paleolithic, Mesolithic, Old or last  Neolithic, Bronze age, historical ages ?

What is the needed age to make in action  the mutations to create different basic pop like Atlantic-Med, Old Med, North European, Caucasus, Gedrosia and so on .  The last studies of these last years give mutation rate average  for autosomic DNA  to 1,0-1,5 10-8 mutations/base pairs/generation (and not 3-5 10-8  as done for older estimates). Mutation rate averages  for Y DNA and X DNA remain unknown. It is certain the used  mutation rate average  for mitochondrial DNA based on homo-chimp splitting is underestimated  (6M years is considered, while more than 9M (until 12M possible) is  certain in our present anthropologic knowledge pratically) , therefore the average rate is 1 for 4500-6000 years and not 1 for 3000 years.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 01:31:35 PM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
rms2
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« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2012, 07:45:23 AM »

Here's some of what Dienekes wrote on the West Asian autosomal component:

Quote from: Dienekes
Here's a challenge to those who think the migration that brought R-M269 to Western Europe is not related to the arrival of the "West_Asian" autosomal component to Western Europe.

What is responsible for that component, if not R-M269.

You can't pin it on:

I: native European
E: rare in Caucasus/Anatolia
G: related apparently to early Neolithic and all pre-Beaker autosomal data points lack "West_Asian"

The only other candidate is J2, which occurs at trace elements in the British Isles and Scandinavia.

So, let's summarize:

- R-M269 came to Europe from the east.
- In all existing autosomal samples from Europe up to 5,000 BC R-M269 is lacking in Europe, and so is the "West_Asian" autosomal component
- Modern Europeans have R-M269 and "West_Asian" autosomal component. The latter occurs at ~10% in populations that have almost no other lineages of West Asian origin other than R-M269

The writing is on the wall.


From: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/05/bell-beakers-from-germany-y-haplogroup.html

Looks to me like J2 is the only option for his West Asian component.

Except that J2 is too infrequent in Northern Europe to account for it (correct me if I am wrong).
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2012, 08:17:04 AM »

Except that J2 is too infrequent in Northern Europe to account for it (correct me if I am wrong).

Just speculating as it is not a perfect fit for J2 either, but it may be a J2 plus some mtDNA that really makes up the component.
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« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2012, 01:09:46 PM »

I wholeheartedly disagree with everyone :)

From a male lineage aDNA perspective, G2a3b1a, or more loosely G2a if we include Oetzi is probably responsible for the spread of West Asian/Caucasus to Europe. I believe J2a is responsible for additional waves of immigration which brought more West Asian component to Europe, in particular SE Europe adding additional % in the Balkans and Italy. These people also came out of eastern Anatolia and Iraq probably.

The Atlantic-Mediterranean or Mediterranean/S.Euro component from earlier runs seems to correlate more closely with R1b and E1b1b1. However, the exact placement of hg I and J in the grand scheme of things continues to not make sense with me. In many ways, the position of I-M26 and R1b-P312 fits like a glove in SW Europe and Sardinia, and yet we have very north European groups like I1, I2b1 and I2a2-Dinaric which are mostly limited to the north or north-east of Europe hinting at a north European component origin.

It's difficult because I don't think there is a black and white link with any component to male YDNA....



« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 01:11:18 PM by A_Wode » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2012, 03:05:59 PM »

Cannot be. Plenty of ancient G2 has been found but minus the West Asia autosomal component.

Quote from: Dienekes

G: related apparently to early Neolithic and all pre-Beaker autosomal data points lack "West_Asian"

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2012, 06:16:25 PM »

Even a surface reading of these Autosomal DNA clusters makes it clear that some of these groups are palimpsests/composites.  Certainly Atlanto-Med. must be a blend of western Meso and Neolithic.   Its clear to me there are big problems at actually identifying some of these clusters with a period.  Seems more to me that its based on and named after a similar Meso and Neo mix in the Atlantic zone so its geography rather than chronology.  Clearly the Atlantic Meso and the Neo Med. element need split.  This is likely true of other autosomal DNA clusters.   
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« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2012, 10:04:49 PM »

Cannot be. Plenty of ancient G2 has been found but minus the West Asia autosomal component.

Quote from: Dienekes

G: related apparently to early Neolithic and all pre-Beaker autosomal data points lack "West_Asian"


With K=7 and K=12, he doesn't even label a component "West Asian", so without any effort he already achieves the point he tries to prove. That said, "Caucasus" which he notes is about 22% in Oetzi is about as close to West Asian as you will get. Good enough in my books. True enough Sardinia has a similar amount. As we know they are not truly 100% South European anyways. He is correct Oetzi is very Sardinian - but this doesn't mean they are full 100% S. European component, they are not... It's effectively a mix of S.European + W.Asian.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 10:05:24 PM by A_Wode » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2012, 07:51:20 AM »

Interesting article, another rebuttal of dienekes' west asian theory.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2012/09/dienekes-pontikos-west-asian-cluster.html?m=1
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« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2012, 10:24:28 AM »



I feel that R1b among the Basques of today might be quite late. I understand that the Basque-specific clades are late and also that the L21 cluster associated with the area is quite late too.  Of course the Baques seem to have largely shifted from Aquitania to the northern Pyrennees and adjacent coast too which confuses matters. Maybe the mixed Aquitantian and Gaulish population fled into the Pyrennees when  and a large Aquitantian population with a small Gaulish military elite led to a high R1b line but basque autosomally and linguistically population.  

 
That is a very unlikely explanation. Basque expansion to the South of Pyrenees (and North up to the Loire) started in the 5-6th century AD, taking advantage of the falling Western Roman Empire. Gaulish military elites by then were long in the past. It was instead a phenomenon happening also in other parts of the crumbling Empire, where populations only superfically civilized but retaining a disctintive local social structure were able to regain independence and expand into civilized neighbours. That was the case also of Numidians, Isaurians, Armenians, and to some extent Britain celts I understand.
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MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

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« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2012, 01:10:02 PM »

If we conjecture that the R1b samples from around the Levant were actually from the Northern sources[North South movement]; it is not hard to imagine other tribal East-West and West- East displacements of R1b,  as well as intermixing autosomal components  between communities.

Scythian communities: North of the Black Sea

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ScythianGroups.png

Levant example of Northern foreign populations settling in region. Example of Scythians or perhaps Phrygians.

Philistines-12 century B.C.-Levant [20,000-30,000] 5 city setttlements
and capturing Scythiopolis[aka,Beit She'an,Around 1100 BC, Canaanite Beit She'an was conquered by the Philistines]
Clearly the Philistines were not a Semetic people.
The term "uncircumcised" is repeatedly used in the Bible as an opprobrious epithet, applied mainly to the Philistines (Judg 14:3; I Sam 14:6; 17:26; 31:4; Ezek 32:21)

Scythian incursion to the region of Scythiopolis[aka,Beit She'an] adjacent ,and bordering Jordan Valley.[Galilee region]

Palestine during the Scythian Invasion and the Period of Josiah, 639–608 BC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thedecapolis.png

http://etc.usf.edu/maps/pages/10000/10079/10079.htm

 The Biblical term "Galilee of the Nations", Hebrew"galil goyim"(Isaiah 9:1). for the region around Galilee or Scythyopolis.


  West Asian- Suebi-Swabian

 Some points of interest to our R1b community.Gabert[Gerber] Burkholder are perhaps ancient relics of R1b connected to Swabian[Suebi or other ancient Germanic  tribes,[curious they also have the DYS,464 14,15,16,X pattern] Khan,Ghosh [there also seem to be more popping up] from the East  with a similar R1b pattern.

Khan's location on the Ht 35 project is at "Abbottābad" or the "NWFP"
"North West Frontier Province" between Afghanistan and Pakistan making it likely that he would be Pashtun, from Afghanistan.

By odd co-incidence "Abbottābad "is very close to a province called  "Swabi"

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Swabi_NWFP.svg
  
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 01:29:19 PM by acekon » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2012, 06:08:26 PM »

Here's a wild one for ya....

I think that some of the West Asian component found in Atlantic European populations comes from Bronze Age Metallurgists from the Balkans and surrounding areas. Albania for "Alba" (Scotland) and Bulgaria for Fir Bolg (Ireland)! Much of it Haplogroup J2.
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« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2012, 12:53:39 AM »

Here's a wild one for ya....

I think that some of the West Asian component found in Atlantic European populations comes from Bronze Age Metallurgists from the Balkans and surrounding areas. Albania for "Alba" (Scotland) and Bulgaria for Fir Bolg (Ireland)! Much of it Haplogroup J2.

I was thinking more along the lines of monkeying around and building a case around the D antigen[p36.13-p34.3]say between Ireland and the Swat Valley, but who knows. I just think it is pretty neat when I tell someone from Punjab how 8 is pronounced in German, they really get a kick out of it.

K12b run Gedrosia score and 2 Pakistan samples  Sengutal et al 2006

Southern Pakistan R1b samples
#814 1 sample from Balochi
#874 1 sample from Makrani

Brahui-69.5% Gedrosia
Balochi-64.5% Gedrosia
Makrani-61.2%Gedrosia
Irish_D-11.9%Gedrosia

Balochi#814- 12 25 14 11 _ _ _ _ 12 13 _14
Makrani#874- 12 24 14 11 _ _ _ _ 12  12_14


Learned something new today about Hindi.

Swabhimaan=Self respect
Swabhav=Liking or Qualities or your Nature.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 01:46:40 AM by acekon » Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
inver2b1
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Posts: 99


« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2012, 07:42:50 AM »

Here's a wild one for ya....

I think that some of the West Asian component found in Atlantic European populations comes from Bronze Age Metallurgists from the Balkans and surrounding areas. Albania for "Alba" (Scotland) and Bulgaria for Fir Bolg (Ireland)! Much of it Haplogroup J2.


When did Albania become Albania or Bulgaria Bulgaria, or at least when did those terms start to get used for those countries?
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I-L126
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