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Author Topic: An Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in to Europe  (Read 1475 times)
eochaidh
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« on: September 04, 2012, 10:34:48 AM »

This is from Eurogenes:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2012, 10:48:13 AM »

This is from Eurogenes:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/

Thanks, Miles. I see different dates for R1b in Europe including 8000-3000 BC as well as 8000-5000 BC.  This fits right in with FTDNA's Mike Hammer's 6000-2000 BC for R-M269.

I may have missed it, but when they were talking about R1b, do they mean literally R1b (M343)?   I suppose they must mean what they wrote.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2012, 10:54:46 AM »

It must be R1b-M269 that he's taking about, because he says that it was all over Western and Central Europe by the late Neolithic.

I'm not great at ages for certain SNPs....
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razyn
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« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2012, 11:02:46 AM »

I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2012, 11:15:01 AM »

I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.

I'm not really impressed with it, considering our favorite Pierogi wrote the article. In his words:

"Indeed, I expect that R1b was all over Western and Central Europe like a rash by the late Neolithic, so its recent discovery in 4,700-year-old Bell Beaker remains from Germany makes perfect sense..."

Getting R1b as far away from anything remotely IE-related helps him sleep at night, I guess.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2012, 11:39:15 AM »

I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.

I'm not really impressed with it, considering our favorite Pierogi wrote the article. In his words:

"Indeed, I expect that R1b was all over Western and Central Europe like a rash by the late Neolithic, so its recent discovery in 4,700-year-old Bell Beaker remains from Germany makes perfect sense..."

Getting R1b as far away from anything remotely IE-related helps him sleep at night, I guess.

LOL!

The only problem with the metaphor is that pierogis are actually something you like to have around.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2012, 12:03:09 PM »

I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.

I'm not really impressed with it, considering our favorite Pierogi wrote the article. In his words:

"Indeed, I expect that R1b was all over Western and Central Europe like a rash by the late Neolithic, so its recent discovery in 4,700-year-old Bell Beaker remains from Germany makes perfect sense..."

Getting R1b as far away from anything remotely IE-related helps him sleep at night, I guess.

LOL!

The only problem with the metaphor is that pierogis are actually something you like to have around.

Is there something wrong with David? Why is this getting personal?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2012, 12:23:45 PM »

I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.

I'm not really impressed with it, considering our favorite Pierogi wrote the article. In his words:

"Indeed, I expect that R1b was all over Western and Central Europe like a rash by the late Neolithic, so its recent discovery in 4,700-year-old Bell Beaker remains from Germany makes perfect sense..."

Getting R1b as far away from anything remotely IE-related helps him sleep at night, I guess.

LOL!

The only problem with the metaphor is that pierogis are actually something you like to have around.

No kidding! I really should use another pseudonym for our chap.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



NealtheRed
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« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2012, 12:25:32 PM »

I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.

I'm not really impressed with it, considering our favorite Pierogi wrote the article. In his words:

"Indeed, I expect that R1b was all over Western and Central Europe like a rash by the late Neolithic, so its recent discovery in 4,700-year-old Bell Beaker remains from Germany makes perfect sense..."

Getting R1b as far away from anything remotely IE-related helps him sleep at night, I guess.

LOL!

The only problem with the metaphor is that pierogis are actually something you like to have around.

Is there something wrong with David? Why is this getting personal?

Miles, you should read between the lines when you consume any of the aforementioned blogger's material.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mkk
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« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2012, 12:50:16 PM »

I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.

I'm not really impressed with it, considering our favorite Pierogi wrote the article. In his words:

"Indeed, I expect that R1b was all over Western and Central Europe like a rash by the late Neolithic, so its recent discovery in 4,700-year-old Bell Beaker remains from Germany makes perfect sense..."

Getting R1b as far away from anything remotely IE-related helps him sleep at night, I guess.

LOL!

The only problem with the metaphor is that pierogis are actually something you like to have around.

Is there something wrong with David? Why is this getting personal?

Miles, you should read between the lines when you consume any of the aforementioned blogger's material.
Read between the lines? I've read his blog and just like Dienekes and other authors he comments on new genetic/anthropological papers in the literature with comments and speculation on their results.

You said, he doesn't want to see R1b as IE. Are you saying he's a pan-Slav propagandist?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2012, 12:59:08 PM »

Read between the lines? I've read his blog and just like Dienekes and other authors he comments on new genetic/anthropological papers in the literature with comments and speculation on their results.

You said, he doesn't want to see R1b as IE. Are you saying he's a pan-Slav propagandist?
The person in question is more of a pan-R1a propagandist. He is much less explicit of these feelings in his blogs, but is considerably more brash on the forums.

If you know that to which I am referring, then the R1b spreading like a rash comment will make more sense to you.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mkk
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« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2012, 02:02:36 PM »

Read between the lines? I've read his blog and just like Dienekes and other authors he comments on new genetic/anthropological papers in the literature with comments and speculation on their results.

You said, he doesn't want to see R1b as IE. Are you saying he's a pan-Slav propagandist?
The person in question is more of a pan-R1a propagandist. He is much less explicit of these feelings in his blogs, but is considerably more brash on the forums.

If you know that to which I am referring, then the R1b spreading like a rash comment will make more sense to you.
Ah, I understand what you're saying now.

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eochaidh
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« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2012, 02:05:13 PM »

I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.

I'm not really impressed with it, considering our favorite Pierogi wrote the article. In his words:

"Indeed, I expect that R1b was all over Western and Central Europe like a rash by the late Neolithic, so its recent discovery in 4,700-year-old Bell Beaker remains from Germany makes perfect sense..."

Getting R1b as far away from anything remotely IE-related helps him sleep at night, I guess.

LOL!

The only problem with the metaphor is that pierogis are actually something you like to have around.

Is there something wrong with David? Why is this getting personal?

Miles, you should read between the lines when you consume any of the aforementioned blogger's material.

No need to read between the lines here, it seems that David's being Polish has something to do with it.
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Heber
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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2012, 02:20:18 PM »

Miles,

This is a very interesting conference with a deluge of new papers on the Y Chrosomone.
Detailed studies from Flemish DNA, The Tyrol, The Alpine Region, Slovakia, Insights on Otzi and his haplogroup, Slavs and Corded Ware, Alpine Tribes, Piedmont,
Next Gen Sequencing of the Y, the massive expansion of the Y Tree, the need to reform the naming convention, Rapidly Mutating Y STRs RM-STRs, Next Gen STRs NG-STRs and of course the Extreme Neolithic Expansion of R1b in Europe. Thanks for posting it. Here is a summary of extracts.

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=615
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
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« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2012, 03:08:06 PM »

I'm not great at viewing a process that takes 5,000 years as an explosion.

I'm not really impressed with it, considering our favorite Pierogi wrote the article. In his words:

"Indeed, I expect that R1b was all over Western and Central Europe like a rash by the late Neolithic, so its recent discovery in 4,700-year-old Bell Beaker remains from Germany makes perfect sense..."

Getting R1b as far away from anything remotely IE-related helps him sleep at night, I guess.

LOL!

The only problem with the metaphor is that pierogis are actually something you like to have around.

Is there something wrong with David? Why is this getting personal?

Miles, you should read between the lines when you consume any of the aforementioned blogger's material.

No need to read between the lines here, it seems that David's being Polish has something to do with it.

That has nothing to do with it. My wife is half Polish. It has everything to do with rude and obnoxious behavior and offensive posts.

I like pierogis (or piroshki, if you prefer them Russian style).
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 03:11:05 PM by rms2 » Logged

Bren123
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« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2012, 04:32:32 PM »

It must be R1b-M269 that he's taking about, because he says that it was all over Western and Central Europe by the late Neolithic.

I'm not great at ages for certain SNPs....

Hasn't anyone pointed out to him aDNA [from Neolithic) finds in Western Europe have been Haplotypes G and E?
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LDJ
princenuadha
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« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2012, 01:20:15 AM »

It must be R1b-M269 that he's taking about, because he says that it was all over Western and Central Europe by the late Neolithic.

I'm not great at ages for certain SNPs....

Hasn't anyone pointed out to him aDNA [from Neolithic) finds in Western Europe have been Haplotypes G and E?

He thinks there was a late neolithic migration (different from the first) into Western Europe which brought most of the r1b that survives in western europe. His evidence and reasoning is very lackluster, but he is nonetheless "convinced".

I tried to explain that an r1b migration from Eastern Europe does a far better job at explaining the changes that happened in the bronze age, here http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/36677-R1b-not-proto-Indo-European?p=980536#post980536

But apparently he did not understand my argument...
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Bren123
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« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2012, 02:18:08 AM »

It must be R1b-M269 that he's taking about, because he says that it was all over Western and Central Europe by the late Neolithic.

I'm not great at ages for certain SNPs....

Hasn't anyone pointed out to him aDNA [from Neolithic) finds in Western Europe have been Haplotypes G and E?

He thinks there was a late neolithic migration (different from the first) into Western Europe which brought most of the r1b that survives in western europe. His evidence and reasoning is very lackluster, but he is nonetheless "convinced".

I tried to explain that an r1b migration from Eastern Europe does a far better job at explaining the changes that happened in the bronze age, here http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/36677-R1b-not-proto-Indo-European?p=980536#post980536

But apparently he did not understand my argument...

Thiis part I disagree with;
Quote
It is a common misunderstanding that language replacement should show up as a huge cultural or population change – that is not the case at all. For example the Gaelicization of Scotland is not perceivable in the archaeological records, according to Mallory.


Take the Norman invasion of Wales  that only affected the top 10% of the population of Wales 90% were monoglot Welsh speakers up until the beginning of the Industrial revolution when a huge influx of people into the South Wales valleys occured.It was only then that the use of Welsh declined quite rapidly.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 02:22:24 AM by Bren123 » Logged

LDJ
princenuadha
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« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2012, 03:32:05 AM »

The replacements I talked about were deduced from adna, not language.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2012, 08:31:46 AM »

"Recent archaeological work in the Levent Valley in the eastern province of Malatya’s Akçadağ district has revealed traces of life from the Neolithic Age."


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/eastern-valley-shows-off-traces-of-neolithic-age.aspx?pageID=238&nid=34895

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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