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Author Topic: R1b-L21: The Big Six, SNP testing and the Big Kahuna (DF13)  (Read 3832 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2012, 11:24:04 AM »

I want to run through a quick review of the Big Six SNPs and what we know about them today.
...
Next post on this thread I'll provide some information the Big Six SNPs: DF49,
L513, Z255, Z253, DF21 and DF41. Their positioning is depicted here.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Descendancy_Tree.jpg

The isles bias is why I keep harping on about the fact we need to also know the numbers tested for an SNP so we can get a percentage.  I think recently Rich and I were talking about this in relation to DF13 and there were 100 isles folk to each French person for example.  So percentages tells us something while totals really dont. 

I reviewed some statistics on DF21, but let's run through the data from FTDNA projects for Z253 now.

I count 224 Z253+ confirmed folks in the R1b-L21 Haplotypes file. This
includes those tested positive for downstream SNPs, most noteworthy of which is L226 (1189-T3 Irish III.)  Z253 has at at least 39 different varieties of STR signatures. Beyond that there are 22 I can't place into a variety with someone else of a different surname. This large number of STR signatures plus the unnassigned indicates this subclade is old.

The modal for Z253 is about a GD=8 @67 from the L21 modal. This is biased by the large number of L226/1189-T3 identified in our projects. If you remove the L226 people, the GD for the rest of Z253 is only GD=1 from the L21 modal.

There are 28 Z253+ people with GDs of 20 or greater @67 to the modal for Z253. The highest GD is 27 so you can Z253 is quite old.

If we count all the people that fit in fairly firm STR signature varieties that
are confirmed DFZ253+, I can find 705 haplotypes. Here are the breakdowns among Old World MDKAs.

England __ 67
France ___ 6
Germany __ 1
Iberia ___ 13
Ireland __ 161
Benelux __ 1
Nordic ___ 6
Scotland _ 61
Switzerland 1
Wales ____ 4

It's interesting that Z253 has a very heavy Irish contingent in its L226/Irish III group that is clearly concentrated in Munster and has not spread out much. At the same time there are Z253 people from Iberia and Switzerland, although of different types.

A major newly discovered SNP based subclade is in the works. L1066 appears to be parallel to L226 and encompasse a wide variety of Z253 people. The 252-1066-T4/Irish IV/Continental people are a subset of L1066.

Let's review what data I have on DF21 to-date from our FTDNA projects data.

I can count 157 DF21+ confirmed folks in the R1b-L21 Haplotypes file. This
includes those tested positive for downstream SNPs. They fall into at least 22
different varieties of STR signatures. Beyond that there are 10 I can't place
into a variety with someone else of a different surname. This large number of
STR signatures plus the unnassigned indicates this subclade is old.

The modal for DF21 confirmed people is 2 (GD) off the modal for L21 @STRs and those two are 449 and CDYa, which are fast markers. This is another indicator that DF21 is old, nearly the age of L21.

Another indicator is the highest GD's from the DF21 modal within the group are
in the 20-25 range, where I can count 10 people.

The largest subgroup of DF21+ confirmed people is variety 21-425n-A1. This is
the 425=null guys. They are primarily in the Clan Colla project and this STR
signature is also known as Airghelli I.

If we count all the people that fit in fairly firm STR signature varieties that
are confirmed DF21+, I can find 576 haplotypes. Many of these are 21-425n-A1 so it begins to dominate (bias) the modal values. Here is the distribution by Old World country of DF21 predicted varieties.

England __ 53
France ___ 2
Germany __ 4
Ireland __ 265
Benelux __ 2
Nordic ___ 2
Scotland _ 69
Wales ____ 22
...
The branch of DF21 that is most apt to be continental is P314.2.

As always, keep in mind, our FTDNA project data is heavily biased towards
British Isles MDKAs, and American immigrant based ones at that. Testing in
Ireland is heaviest, next Scotland and then England. There is dramatic drop off
of testing as a percent of the population as you go to the Continent or
Scandinavia.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2012, 11:43:36 AM »

Each result for France can be multiplied approximately 100 times, by Alan's calculations. So, the actual numbers for France are about 600 for Z253 and 200 for DF21.
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« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2012, 01:54:44 PM »

Each result for France can be multiplied approximately 100 times, by Alan's calculations. So, the actual numbers for France are about 600 for Z253 and 200 for DF21.

I see you are keen to stay to join in on your focus issue and excellent with math to boot.

You might consider making a contribution to the French Heritage project for Z253 and DF21 SNP testing.

As always, keep in mind, our FTDNA project data is heavily biased towards British Isles MDKAs, and American immigrant based ones at that. Testing in Ireland is heaviest, next Scotland and then England. There is dramatic drop off of testing as a percent of the population as you go to the Continent or Scandinavia.

The isles bias is why I keep harping on about the fact we need to also know the numbers tested for an SNP so we can get a percentage.  I think recently Rich and I were talking about this in relation to DF13 and there were 100 isles folk to each French person for example.  So percentages tells us something while totals really dont.

Beyond that, Alan, I think there are biases that Richard R has pointed out as far immigration (to America) patterns that will not rid us of these biases anyway. As far as L21 subclades go, the current academically available data shows L21 with a heavy North and NW France tilt so I think surveying by sub-region within France is also important.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 02:15:01 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2012, 02:12:03 PM »

Each result for France can be multiplied approximately 100 times, by Alan's calculations. So, the actual numbers for France are about 600 for Z253 and 200 for DF21.

I see you are keen to stay to join in your focus issue and excellent with math to boot.

You might consider making a contribution to the French Heritage project for Z253 and DF21 SNP testing.

I belong to the French Heritage DNA Project because of my maternal mtDNA, but I don't have the money to contribute. Nor do I know anyone who is an Administrator. I have no affiliation with them other than being listed under mtDNA results.

I think that people looking for good subjects to test for subclades under DF13, would be wise to check with French testers. Is there something wrong with my thinking? It seems as if French results are always in good number.

France is the only logical origin for DF13 and all of its subclades.

EDIT: The reason France is the only logical origin for DF13 and its subclades is that the numbers of French results are high, especially when multiplied by approxiamtely 100 (per Alan), and The Isles are over sampled. Plus there is no evidence on migration to France from the Isles other than the migration from southwest Britain to Amorica.

Unless someone can explain how the hundreds of French results migrated to France from some other area, the origin must remain France (logically).
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 03:46:29 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2012, 03:52:57 PM »

I want to run through a quick review of the Big Six SNPs and what we know about them today.
...Next post on this thread I'll provide some information the Big Six SNPs: DF49,
L513, Z255, Z253, DF21 and DF41. Their positioning is depicted here.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Descendancy_Tree.jpg

Here is a summary of data about DF49 from FTDNA projects.

I count 951 DF49+ confirmed folks in the R1b-L21 Haplotypes file. This includes those tested positive for downstream SNPs, most noteworthy of which is M222 (NW Irish/Lowland Scots.) This makes DF49 the largest known subclade of DF13 and of L21 (other than DF13.) 917 of the DF49 people are M222+ so we should probably report it separately.

Besides M222, DF49 has at least 10 different varieties of STR signatures. The modal for DF49xM222 (M222-) is GD=3 @67 from the L21 modal. Even though the DF49xM222 sample size is low, there are 4 people with GD of 20 or greater from its modal. The largest GD for anyone in DF49 to the DF49 modal, which is basically the M222 modal, is GD=27. More than half of the DF49xM222 confirmed people have GD's of 20 or greater than the overall DF49 modal.

M222's modal, is distinctive with a GD=12 @67 from L21's modal. Even though there are 917 M222+ folks, the highest GD for an M222 person to the M222 modal is 19. The average GD to the M222 modal for M222 folks is GD=8.

The net of it is that although M222 is very big, it is relatively young, while DF49 is relatively old. DF49 has a good a chance as any of being the oldest subclade of DF13.

If we count all the people that fit in fairly firm STR signature varieties that
are confirmed DF49xM222, I can find 171 haplotypes. Here are the breakdowns among Old World MDKAs.

DF49xM222:
England __ 19
France ___ 5
Germany __ 1
Iberia ___ 0
Ireland __ 50
Italy ____ 1
Benelux __ 0
Nordic ___ 1
Scotland _ 15
Wales ____ 22

Compared to normal testing penetration and population sizes, I think Wales is what stands out for DF49xM222. Particularly when you look at M222's distribution below, on a much smaller number, DF49xM222 has a high frequency in Wales.

M222:
England __ 52
France ___ 3
Germany __ 8
Iberia ___ 0
Ireland __ 548
___ split -> Ulster 59%, Connacht 21%, Leinster 13%, Munster 7%
Italy ____ 1
Benelux __ 0
Nordic ___ 2
Scotland _ 174
___ split -> South 29%, West/Cent 28%, North 24%, East 19%
Wales ____ 10

I expected the very high Ulster % for M222.I would think that Munster should be higher, if the legends are true about where these guys came from.[EDIT] Something walled off M222 from going west and south in Ireland, or maybe it came from the east in the first place. In Scotland, the distribution of M222 is a bit more evenly distributed than in Ireland.


... let's run through the data from FTDNA projects for Z253 now.

I count 224 Z253+ confirmed folks in the R1b-L21 Haplotypes file. This
includes those tested positive for downstream SNPs, most noteworthy of which is L226 (1189-T3 Irish III.)  Z253 has at at least 39 different varieties of STR signatures. Beyond that there are 22 I can't place into a variety with someone else of a different surname. This large number of STR signatures plus the unnassigned indicates this subclade is old.

The modal for Z253 is about a GD=8 @67 from the L21 modal. This is biased by the large number of L226/1189-T3 identified in our projects. If you remove the L226 people, the GD for the rest of Z253 is only GD=1 from the L21 modal.

There are 28 Z253+ people with GDs of 20 or greater @67 to the modal for Z253. The highest GD is 27 so you can see Z253 is quite old.

If we count all the people that fit in fairly firm STR signature varieties that
are confirmed DFZ253+, I can find 705 haplotypes. Here are the breakdowns among Old World MDKAs.

England __ 67
France ___ 6
Germany __ 1
Iberia ___ 13
Ireland __ 161
Benelux __ 1
Nordic ___ 6
Scotland _ 61
Switzerland 1
Wales ____ 4

It's interesting that Z253 has a very heavy Irish contingent in its L226/Irish III group that is clearly concentrated in Munster and has not spread out much. At the same time there are Z253 people from Iberia and Switzerland, although of different types.

A major newly discovered SNP based subclade is in the works. L1066 appears to be parallel to L226 and encompass a wide variety of Z253 people. The 252-1066-T4/Irish IV/Continental people are a subset of L1066.

Let's review what data I have on DF21 to-date from our FTDNA projects data.

I can count 157 DF21+ confirmed folks in the R1b-L21 Haplotypes file. This
includes those tested positive for downstream SNPs. They fall into at least 22
different varieties of STR signatures. Beyond that there are 10 I can't place
into a variety with someone else of a different surname. This large number of
STR signatures plus the unnassigned indicates this subclade is old.

The modal for DF21 confirmed people is 2 (GD) off the modal for L21 @STRs and those two are 449 and CDYa, which are fast markers. This is another indicator that DF21 is old, nearly the age of L21.

Another indicator is the highest GD's from the DF21 modal within the group are
in the 20-25 range, where I can count 10 people.

The largest subgroup of DF21+ confirmed people is variety 21-425n-A1. This is
the 425=null guys. They are primarily in the Clan Colla project and this STR
signature is also known as Airghelli I.

If we count all the people that fit in fairly firm STR signature varieties that
are confirmed DF21+, I can find 576 haplotypes. Many of these are 21-425n-A1 so it begins to dominate (bias) the modal values. Here is the distribution by Old World country of DF21 predicted varieties.

England __ 53
France ___ 2
Germany __ 4
Ireland __ 265
Benelux __ 2
Nordic ___ 2
Scotland _ 69
Wales ____ 22
...
The branch of DF21 that is most apt to be continental is P314.2.


As always, keep in mind, our FTDNA project data is heavily biased towards British Isles MDKAs, and American immigrant based ones at that. Testing in Ireland is heaviest, next Scotland and then England. There is dramatic drop off of testing as a percent of the population as you go to the Continent or Scandinavia.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 03:53:30 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2012, 06:40:23 PM »

I agree when you say that DF49 could (potentially) be the oldest (presently known) subclade of DF13 but I don't know if it's viable to use a modal that's presumable quite a bit younger than the common ancestor to calculate GDs against.

I'm also interested in the high Welsh count, Wales isn't that highly tested compared to the other Isles regions and two of the English results for DF49* have  Welsh Marches heritage.

Does DF41 also show a higher than expected Welsh element ?
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« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2012, 08:55:31 PM »

I'm also interested in the high Welsh count, Wales isn't that highly tested compared to the other Isles regions and two of the English results for DF49* have  Welsh Marches heritage.

Does DF41 also show a higher than expected Welsh element ?

I was about to say "no" but I did find this:
f148478 yRTUEZ Thomas   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745  41-744-Stu    Wales

This is only one person and he is thrown in with all of the Stewart/Stuart folks. It'd be easy enough to say it must be an NPE situation or something, however, he does NOT fit perfectly haplotype wise. He's the only L745+ guy who is either 390=23 or 557=17 so maybe he is an early branch off of or prior to the Stewart's.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 08:58:35 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2012, 09:11:04 PM »

I agree when you say that DF49 could (potentially) be the oldest (presently known) subclade of DF13 but I don't know if it's viable to use a modal that's presumable quite a bit younger than the common ancestor to calculate GDs against.

I understand. Here was the part about DF49xM222's largest GD to its own modal.

... Even though the DF49xM222 sample size is low, there are 4 people with GD of 20 or greater from its modal. ...

We don't have that many DF49xM222 folks and they do have spans of over GD=20 @67 which definitely isn't young.  I didn't calculate it, but by eyeball it looks like the average GD of DF49xM222 to the DF49xM222 modal is quite high.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 09:11:47 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2012, 07:53:30 AM »

I'm also interested in the high Welsh count, Wales isn't that highly tested compared to the other Isles regions and two of the English results for DF49* have  Welsh Marches heritage.

Does DF41 also show a higher than expected Welsh element ?

I was about to say "no" but I did find this:
f148478 yRTUEZ Thomas   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745  41-744-Stu    Wales

This is only one person and he is thrown in with all of the Stewart/Stuart folks. It'd be easy enough to say it must be an NPE situation or something, however, he does NOT fit perfectly haplotype wise. He's the only L745+ guy who is either 390=23 or 557=17 so maybe he is an early branch off of or prior to the Stewart's.


He's not in the R-L21 Plus Project or the R-DF41 and Subclades Project, so I sent sent him an email via Ysearch inviting him to join both projects. Hopefully, he will. It would be neat if L745+ were not limited just to the Stewarts.
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« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2012, 10:56:35 AM »

I'm also interested in the high Welsh count, Wales isn't that highly tested compared to the other Isles regions and two of the English results for DF49* have  Welsh Marches heritage.

Does DF41 also show a higher than expected Welsh element ?

I was about to say "no" but I did find this:
f148478 yRTUEZ Thomas   R-L21/DF13/DF41/L744/L745  41-744-Stu    Wales

This is only one person and he is thrown in with all of the Stewart/Stuart folks. It'd be easy enough to say it must be an NPE situation or something, however, he does NOT fit perfectly haplotype wise. He's the only L745+ guy who is either 390=23 or 557=17 so maybe he is an early branch off of or prior to the Stewart's.


He's not in the R-L21 Plus Project or the R-DF41 and Subclades Project, so I sent sent him an email via Ysearch inviting him to join both projects. Hopefully, he will. It would be neat if L745+ were not limited just to the Stewarts.

Perhaps the Stewart project administrators can help. He is in their project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Stuart/default.aspx?section=ysnp

148478    Thomas    Joseph THOMAS;b ca 1735 WALES;d 1778 Rev War    R1b1a2    R-M269    L744+, L745+, L746+


I wonder if we took the the L745 STR signature and tweaked it a little with different combinations, if more Welsh people would turn up.

I'll look in the Wales project.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 10:58:24 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2012, 01:20:49 PM »


Ireland __ 548
___ split -> Ulster 59%, Connacht 21%, Leinster 13%, Munster 7%
Italy ____ 1
Benelux __ 0
Nordic ___ 2
Scotland _ 174
___ split -> South 29%, West/Cent 28%, North 24%, East 19%
Wales ____ 10
[/font]
I expected the very high Ulster % for M222. I would think that Munster should be higher, if the legends are true about where these guys came from. Something walled off M222 from going west and south in Ireland, or maybe it came from the east in the first place. In Scotland, the distribution of M222 is a bit more evenly distributed than in Ireland.


Mike, I'm just following up on the above, it appears contradictory. The Highest M222+ in your figures are in the North (Ulster) and West (Connacht). It's the South (Munster) and East (Leinster) that have the lowest.

Which legends by the way? As in the origins back to the sons of Míl Espáine?

Just to put some of the "pseudo-history" framework in place. The history of the Uí Néill and their close relatives the Connachta follows along the following arc. (based on chronology drawn up by synthetic historians in period 800-900AD)

Túathal Techtmar is forced into exile while still in his mother's womb back to her fathers "court" in 56AD (her father is king of Alba -- in this case probably meaning older meaning of word akin to Albion as oppose to later meaning just been Scotland). This is due to rebellion by the province kings against his father the High King. He is born in exile and later returns with an army to reclaim his rightful throne. There then follows 30 years of battle which involves over 130 battles.

His grandson is Conn Cétchathach (of the hundred battles) whose reign in put in the histories as been mid 2nd century AD. The older common name for both the Connachta and the Uí Néill is the Dál Cuinn.

Anyways according to the psuedo-history, Ireland was divided into two halves these been even halves marked by a line drawn from Galway to Dublin. The northern half was Leath Cuinn (Conn's half) the southern half been Leath Moga (Mug Nuadat's half).

Mug Nuadat is also known as Eogan Mór and is the purported ancestor of the Eoghanacht of munster (Irish Type II?).

Anyways roll on the 4th century and you have Eochaid Mugmedon (Eochaidh the Slave lord) who was the father of the following:
  • Niall Noígiallach -- Uí Néill
  • Brión --  Uí Briúin
  • Fiachrae -- Uí Fiachrach
  • Ailill -- Uí nAilello

The last three brothers were full brothers whereas Niall was their half-brother. These formed what were known as the "Three Connachta" and as dynastical groupings were based in Connacht. The Uí nAilello fell into obscurity fairly early on, however names connected to Uí Fiachrach and Uí Briúin survive to this day. Namely:

Uí Briúin -- O'Connor of Connacht -- several M222+ results
Uí Fiachrach -- O'Dowd and O'Shaughnessy -- M222+ as well.

---

Anyways the key here is that from an archaelogical point of view there is a difference between Leath Cuinn and Leath Moga when it comes to archaelogical finds, there's considerably more in way of La Tene influenced finds in Leath Cuinn. Some have proposed that the mythological division as recounted above was as much to reflect the political realities of the 8th-10th century. The two main power blocks been the Dál Cuinn (specifically Uí Néill) and the Eoghanacht of Munster. The pseudo-historical genealogies put both as descended from perspective 2nd century AD kings, and then using the made up character of Míl Espáine extended it futher back to claim that one set is descended from one son of Míl and the other form another son (Eber Finn and Érimón)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 01:21:24 PM by Dubhthach » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2012, 03:31:42 PM »

I would think that Munster should be higher, if the legends are true about where these guys came from. Something walled off M222 from going west and south in Ireland, or maybe it came from the east in the first place.

Mike, I'm just following up on the above, it appears contradictory. The Highest M222+ in your figures are in the North (Ulster) and West (Connacht). It's the South (Munster) and East (Leinster) that have the lowest.

Which legends by the way? As in the origins back to the sons of Míl Espáine?
I'm going to strike that as a mistake on my part. I probably have just misunderstood what I read. I thought they had made greater inroads to the west, but it probably was to the northwest.  

For % frequencies on well tested SNPs, we should be looking at the studies anyway.  Here is what the Busby tables had for M222 frequencies.

0.444 _ North Ireland _ this paper   
0.438 _ Ireland West _ Myres et al 2011

0.269 _ West Ireland _ this paper
0.250 _ Ireland East _ Myres et al 2011
0.195 _ East Ireland _ this paper   

0.143 _ West Scotland _ this paper   
0.143 _ Ireland North _ Myres et al 2011
0.112 _ South Ireland _ this paper
0.104 _ North East Scotland _ this paper

0.063 _ North West Scotland _ this paper   
0.045 _ Ireland Southwest _ Myres et al 2011
0.042 _ Ireland South _ Myres et al 2011
0.009 _ Orkney _ this paper


I'm not sure what the studies' geographic definitions were but Ulster and Connacht appear to have the highest frequencies, easily. M222 was walled off from the southwest and south to a great extent in Ireland. I had in mind that Munster was west, but it is better described as southwest and south-central while Connacht is northwest. http://our-ireland.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/provinces-ireland-map.png

Dubhthach, from what we can tell so far, DF23* and DF49* don't show the same very high frequency predispositions towards Ulster and Connacht.  What do you make of that? Does that tie back to where certain kingly lineages were supposed to have come from?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 04:06:23 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2012, 05:29:13 PM »

Mike,

I see part of issue, obviously in Ireland we have defintions of what we would regard as West, South etc which doesn't necessary gel with someone looking in from the outside who is looking straight at a map. The most simple rule of thumb obviously is:

Ulster - North
Connacht - West
Munster - South
Leinster - East

The River Shannon is the centerline of the country, once you cross the River you are into the West.

Generally if we are to break down into more finer grain we see following:

North-West: Donegal (Ulster), Leitrim and Sligo (both Connacht)
West: Galway, Mayo, Roscommon (Connacht)
Midwest: Clare, Limerick, North Tipperary (Munster)
South-West: Kerry, West Cork (Munster)

In context of pre-1170 Ireland the above would map to:

North-West: Uí Néill and Uí Brión + subject peoples (M222)
West: Uí Brión, Uí Fiachrach, Uí Máine + subject peoples (M222, DF23*)
Midwest: Dál gCais (Irish Type III)
South-West: Eoghanacht (Irish Type II) (most of South Munster)

Regarding Busby tables I recalled they had geographic co-ordinates,  I fed these into Google Earth and generated the following map:


http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/ireland-busby.png

Here's the one for Scotland:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/busby-scotland.png

England and Wales:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/Busby-England-Wales.png

So far we don't really know enough about DF23* or especially DF49* in context of Ireland, they are fairly new. At least with DF23* we are seeing for example the Uí Máine -- who were military underlings to the Connachta (Uí Briúin), so much so that they have two distinct genealogies, one that connects them with the three Colla's and another that puts them as been actual Uí Néill. This would point to me that their geneaology was rewritten for political reasons probably in 10th-11th century.

Anyways some over the years have proposed that the Dál Cuinn (Connachta/Uí Néill) entry into Ireland was basically in area that was the historic province of Meath (North Leinster nowadays), in other words the area north of Dublin city to boundaries of Ulster. Obvious Tara is in this area and historically Meath was regarded as the highking's own province. What's interesting is there is quite a high cluster of Roman finds in that general area (see map from Discovery programme)
http://www.discoveryprogramme.ie/images/stories/LIARI_CONFERENCE/Database_distribution2.jpg

Now the whole pseudo-history story of Tuathal implies a man arriving from Northern Britain with an army in the late 1st century AD (in this case to reclaim his birthright). Perhaps this is an allegorical story for actual movement of Celtic speaking population into Ireland during the 1st century from North Britain, perhaps driven by the Roman conquest of the Brigantes etc?

Thus if M222 did arise in that area/time it would explain it's sudden movement into Ireland. Just idle speculation on my part but interesting none the less. Obviously the Roman finds are been generally tied into either trade or raiding.

-Paul
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« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2012, 05:35:02 PM »

Here are two alright maps on wiki showing general situation in period 800-900 AD:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Ireland_early_peoples_and_politics.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Ireland_early_peoples_and_politics.gif
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« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2012, 05:52:13 PM »

I consider Counties Derry, Tyrone and Fermanagh to be in the northwest of Ireland.
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« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2012, 12:06:10 AM »

I see part of issue, obviously in Ireland we have defintions of what we would regard as West, South etc which doesn't necessary gel with someone looking in from the outside who is looking straight at a map. The most simple rule of thumb obviously is:

Ulster - North
Connacht - West
Munster - South
Leinster - East

To clarify, I use the provincial names and boundaries (Ulster, Connacht, Munster and Leinster) when I classify MDKA origins in the spreadsheets I track.
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/geography/counties.html
They seem to be stable in their definition, at least in recent times so I'll stick with that method.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 12:09:37 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2012, 12:32:06 AM »

We picked up a new DF49* guy so are is the current group:

f44126   Garrett   Ireland
f117117   Holland England, South West, Gloucestershire, Chalford
f216031   McElrea   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Omagh, Parish of Cappagh
f47105   Newell   zzzUnkOrigin
f117897   Stedman   England, West Midlands, Aston Munslow
f188270   Gillespie zzzUnkOrigin
f129036   Harrison England, North West, Cheshire
f33932   Hopkins   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo, Derrylahan
f19499   Hopkins   zzUnkOrigin
f218322   McCabe Ireland, Ulster, Co. Fermanagh, Rosslea
f59601   Wilson Ireland, Ulster, Co. Cavan (? or Co. Leitrim)

Here is the current DF23* group:
f149182   Byrne   zzzUnkOrigin
f149181   O'Beirne   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Roscommon, Roscommon
fN92711   Le Provost   France, Basse-Normandie, Avranches
f41311   Eaton   England, South East, Kent
fN1871   Warren   UK
fN46295   Bonnet   Italy, Piedmont, Montoulles, Chambonsn (Waldensian French community)
f18917   Brun   France, Poitou-Charentes
f97610   Kehoe Ireland, Leinster, Co. Wexford
fN10959   Johnson   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Belfast
f207798   Martin Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim
f162881   Carroll Ireland, Munster, Co. Tipperary, Ballingarry
f90439   Davis England
f19920   Stephens Scotland
f156257   Stephens zzzUnkOrigin
f147036   Vaughan   Wales
f64716   Vaughan   zzzUnkOrigin
f108697   Vaughn   Wales
f34742   Workman(Vaughan) zzzUnkOrigin
f78065   Lamphier France, Languedoc-Roussillon
f100219   Kelly(Ui Maine)   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Raheen, Gort
f159039   Trainor   Ireland
f63595   Anglin   Ireland, Munster, Co. Cork
f137235   Caldwell Ireland
fN26284   Leister   Ireland
f119874   Stanton? zzzUnkOrigin
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« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2012, 12:43:55 AM »

....
So far we don't really know enough about DF23* or especially DF49* in context of Ireland, they are fairly new. At least with DF23* we are seeing for example the Uí Máine -- who were military underlings to the Connachta (Uí Briúin), so much so that they have two distinct genealogies, one that connects them with the three Colla's and another that puts them as been actual Uí Néill. This would point to me that their geneaology was rewritten for political reasons probably in 10th-11th century. ...

The Kelly Ui Maine (what they call themselves) people I have assigned to variety 49-23-21-HyM. They are DF23* and they have a strong STR signature pattern. If this does line up with the Ui Maine, it looks like the Ui Maine had some connection to Wales. What's their origin story?

fB1536   Bodamer   Germany, Baden-Württenberg, Grünwettersbach
f79367   Kelly(Ui Maine)   Ireland
f100219   Kelly(Ui Maine)   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Raheen, Gort
f162015   Kelly(Ui Maine)   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Roscommon
f107869   Kelly(Ui Maine)   Ireland, Leinster, Co. Laois
f160027   Madden   Ireland, Munster, Co. Clare (?Limerick)
fN33146   O'Kelly   Ireland
f84928   O'Kelly(Ui Maine)   Ireland
f60472   Pugh   Wales
f128257   Pugh   Wales
f108037   Pugh   Wales
f189772   Pugh   Wales, North, Gwyneed
f185074   Pugh   zzzUnkOrigin
f27822   Shannon   Ireland
f14875   Thomas   Wales, South Carmarthenshire, Llandybie
f108030   Trainor   Ireland
f159039   Trainor   Ireland
f132540   Traynor   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Cavan
fN5677   Traynor   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Dromore, Corlaghdergan


« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 12:45:46 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2012, 05:17:15 AM »

We picked up a new DF49* guy so are is the current group:

f44126   Garrett   Ireland
f117117   Holland England, South West, Gloucestershire, Chalford
f216031   McElrea   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Omagh, Parish of Cappagh
f47105   Newell   zzzUnkOrigin
f117897   Stedman   England, West Midlands, Aston Munslow
f188270   Gillespie zzzUnkOrigin
f129036   Harrison England, North West, Cheshire
f33932   Hopkins   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo, Derrylahan
f19499   Hopkins   zzUnkOrigin
f218322   McCabe Ireland, Ulster, Co. Fermanagh, Rosslea
f59601   Wilson Ireland, Ulster, Co. Cavan (? or Co. Leitrim)

Here is the current DF23* group:
f149182   Byrne   zzzUnkOrigin
f149181   O'Beirne   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Roscommon, Roscommon
fN92711   Le Provost   France, Basse-Normandie, Avranches
f41311   Eaton   England, South East, Kent
fN1871   Warren   UK
fN46295   Bonnet   Italy, Piedmont, Montoulles, Chambonsn (Waldensian French community)
f18917   Brun   France, Poitou-Charentes
f97610   Kehoe Ireland, Leinster, Co. Wexford
fN10959   Johnson   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Belfast
f207798   Martin Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim
f162881   Carroll Ireland, Munster, Co. Tipperary, Ballingarry
f90439   Davis England
f19920   Stephens Scotland
f156257   Stephens zzzUnkOrigin
f147036   Vaughan   Wales
f64716   Vaughan   zzzUnkOrigin
f108697   Vaughn   Wales
f34742   Workman(Vaughan) zzzUnkOrigin
f78065   Lamphier France, Languedoc-Roussillon
f100219   Kelly(Ui Maine)   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Raheen, Gort
f159039   Trainor   Ireland
f63595   Anglin   Ireland, Munster, Co. Cork
f137235   Caldwell Ireland
fN26284   Leister   Ireland
f119874   Stanton? zzzUnkOrigin

Could this be the first DF49* with French ancestry ? or should I say first 'hundred' result ;)

He doesn't do much to reduce the diversity does he !!
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 05:18:03 AM by Jdean » Logged

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« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2012, 07:18:25 AM »

....
So far we don't really know enough about DF23* or especially DF49* in context of Ireland, they are fairly new. At least with DF23* we are seeing for example the Uí Máine -- who were military underlings to the Connachta (Uí Briúin), so much so that they have two distinct genealogies, one that connects them with the three Colla's and another that puts them as been actual Uí Néill. This would point to me that their geneaology was rewritten for political reasons probably in 10th-11th century. ...

The Kelly Ui Maine (what they call themselves) people I have assigned to variety 49-23-21-HyM. They are DF23* and they have a strong STR signature pattern. If this does line up with the Ui Maine, it looks like the Ui Maine had some connection to Wales. What's their origin story?

fB1536   Bodamer   Germany, Baden-Württenberg, Grünwettersbach
f79367   Kelly(Ui Maine)   Ireland
f100219   Kelly(Ui Maine)   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Raheen, Gort
f162015   Kelly(Ui Maine)   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Roscommon
f107869   Kelly(Ui Maine)   Ireland, Leinster, Co. Laois
f160027   Madden   Ireland, Munster, Co. Clare (?Limerick)
fN33146   O'Kelly   Ireland
f84928   O'Kelly(Ui Maine)   Ireland
f60472   Pugh   Wales
f128257   Pugh   Wales
f108037   Pugh   Wales
f189772   Pugh   Wales, North, Gwyneed
f185074   Pugh   zzzUnkOrigin
f27822   Shannon   Ireland
f14875   Thomas   Wales, South Carmarthenshire, Llandybie
f108030   Trainor   Ireland
f159039   Trainor   Ireland
f132540   Traynor   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Cavan
fN5677   Traynor   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Dromore, Corlaghdergan




Ui Maine or Hy-Many is a Gaelic Clan and settled in Kelly country in East Galway and I notice you have a number of Kelly's in your list. It roughly corresponds to the old Parish of Clonfert, where my recent ancestors came from. I match a number of Hy-Many names such as MacEgan. They could also be related to the Three , Collas, Colla da Crioch where my ancient ancestors came from.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/uimaine.htm

Uí Maine, often incorrectly Anglicised as Hy Many, was one of the oldest and largest kingdoms located in Connacht, Ireland. Its territory of approximately 1,000 square miles (2,600 km2) encompassed all of what is now north, east and south County Galway, south and central County Roscommon, an area near County Clare, and at one stage had apparently subjugated land on the east bank of the Shannon, together with the parish of Lusmag in Offaly.
There were two different Ui Maine, the Ui Maine of Tethbae and the Uí Maine of Connacht; these tribes were separated by the Shannon River. The people of the kingdom were descendants of Máine Mór, who won the territory by warfare. Its sub-kingdoms, also known as lordships, included - among others - Tír Soghain, Corco Mogha, Delbhna Nuadat, Síol Anmchadha, and Máenmaige. These kingdoms were made up of offshoots of the Uí Maine dynasty, or subject peoples of different races.
The Uí Maine are among the ancient Irish dynasties still represented today among the recognized Irish nobility and Chiefs of the Name, by the O'Kelly of Gallagh and Tycooly, Prince of Uí Maine and Count of the Holy Roman Empire. The Fox (O'Kearney) may represent the eastern Uí Maine of Tethbae.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_Maine
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« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2012, 04:20:25 PM »

....
So far we don't really know enough about DF23* or especially DF49* in context of Ireland, they are fairly new. At least with DF23* we are seeing for example the Uí Máine -- who were military underlings to the Connachta (Uí Briúin), so much so that they have two distinct genealogies, one that connects them with the three Colla's and another that puts them as been actual Uí Néill. This would point to me that their geneaology was rewritten for political reasons probably in 10th-11th century. ...

The Kelly Ui Maine (what they call themselves) people I have assigned to variety 49-23-21-HyM. They are DF23* and they have a strong STR signature pattern. If this does line up with the Ui Maine, it looks like the Ui Maine had some connection to Wales. What's their origin story?


Ui Maine or Hy-Many is a Gaelic Clan and settled in Kelly country in East Galway and I notice you have a number of Kelly's in your list. It roughly corresponds to the old Parish of Clonfert, where my recent ancestors came from. I match a number of Hy-Many names such as MacEgan. They could also be related to the Three , Collas, Colla da Crioch where my ancient ancestors came from.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/uimaine.htm

Uí Maine, often incorrectly Anglicised as Hy Many, was one of the oldest and largest kingdoms located in Connacht, Ireland. Its territory of approximately 1,000 square miles (2,600 km2) encompassed all of what is now north, east and south County Galway, south and central County Roscommon, an area near County Clare, and at one stage had apparently subjugated land on the east bank of the Shannon, together with the parish of Lusmag in Offaly.
There were two different Ui Maine, the Ui Maine of Tethbae and the Uí Maine of Connacht; these tribes were separated by the Shannon River. The people of the kingdom were descendants of Máine Mór, who won the territory by warfare. Its sub-kingdoms, also known as lordships, included - among others - Tír Soghain, Corco Mogha, Delbhna Nuadat, Síol Anmchadha, and Máenmaige. These kingdoms were made up of offshoots of the Uí Maine dynasty, or subject peoples of different races.
The Uí Maine are among the ancient Irish dynasties still represented today among the recognized Irish nobility and Chiefs of the Name, by the O'Kelly of Gallagh and Tycooly, Prince of Uí Maine and Count of the Holy Roman Empire. The Fox (O'Kearney) may represent the eastern Uí Maine of Tethbae.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_Maine

I don't see any potential connection to Wales in the Ui Maine dynasty information. Is there a connection I'm missing?

The reason I ask is these guys seem to have a Welsh genetic/surname side of the variety/cluster as well as the Gaelic side.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 05:18:51 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2012, 05:44:52 PM »


I don't see any potential connection to Wales in the Ui Maine dynasty information. Is there a connection I'm missing?

The reason I ask is these guys seem to have a Welsh genetic/surname side of the variety/cluster as well as the Gaelic side.

Nothing obvious the Uí Máine claim descent from Máine Mór (Mór = Big literally Great), who is suppose to have arrived into Connacht in the 4th century(the annals place him as flourishing 357–407AD). He and his followers conquered east Galway, specifically the areas ruled by the Senchineoil (seanchenél -- old kindreds) and the Sogain (Soghain -- who are listed in genealogies as been Cruithne).

The standard genealogies put him as been descended from one of the three Colla's. Obviously the lack of DF21 and presence of DF23 puts an end to that theory.

The second genealogy/grouping is tied to what are known of the Cenél Maini of Tethbae (Westmeath/Longford) which is east of the Shannon -- as oppose to the Uí Máine that were west of the Shannon. Their ancestry is purported to be from a supposed Máine mac Néill (a purported son of Niall Noígiallach).

As a result it's been often discussed if the two groups were really one and the same, one having stayed behind east of the Shannon.

What I would be curious about is the TMRCA between Kelly/Traynor and Pugh. Is it truely old or something abit more recent. If we go back to 2,000 years ago the difference between what we could call "Proto-Goidelic" and "Proto-Brythonic" were probably quite small, less then between Dutch and say modern German. You would have had highly similar tribal societies with highly similar religious, cultural and linguistic features.

-Paul
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« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2012, 06:51:06 PM »

The McKeoghs were also a Ui Maine family related to the Kellys.

I'm a DF23+ Kehoe (McKeogh), but my family is from Wexford and before that Wicklow. Perhaps there was an eastern movement of some Ui Maine McKeoghs.

The Leinster Kehoes are supposed to be related to the O'Byrnes, and I see some of them on the DF23+ list.
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« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2012, 11:55:55 PM »

The McKeoghs were also a Ui Maine family related to the Kellys.

I'm a DF23+ Kehoe (McKeogh), but my family is from Wexford and before that Wicklow. Perhaps there was an eastern movement of some Ui Maine McKeoghs.

The Leinster Kehoes are supposed to be related to the O'Byrnes, and I see some of them on the DF23+ list.

I see the Kehoe FTDNA project but is there one under the variant surname McKeough as well that I could look for matching haplotypes in?

Also please consider turning on the Y DNA SNP report.

Thanks.
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« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2012, 01:02:07 AM »

The McKeoghs were also a Ui Maine family related to the Kellys.

I'm a DF23+ Kehoe (McKeogh), but my family is from Wexford and before that Wicklow. Perhaps there was an eastern movement of some Ui Maine McKeoghs.

The Leinster Kehoes are supposed to be related to the O'Byrnes, and I see some of them on the DF23+ list.

I see the Kehoe FTDNA project but is there one under the variant surname McKeough as well that I could look for matching haplotypes in?

Also please consider turning on the Y DNA SNP report.

Thanks.

No, we're the only Kehoe/Keogh/Keough Project. I believe Kehew has a McKeogh listed as his MDKA. We're all over the board! P312, L176, DF23 and many (other than me) match with testers named Coffey. Apparently, MacEochaidh sounded like MacCoffey to the English when they Anglicized the name.
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