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Author Topic: R1b-L21: The Big Six, SNP testing and the Big Kahuna (DF13)  (Read 3750 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: September 02, 2012, 11:58:31 PM »

I want to run through a quick review of the Big Six SNPs and what we know about them today.

First, though, we should start out with the Big Kahuna, DF13. Just so you know
I'm only a little nuts, for a guy from Nebraska, Hawaii is amazing. There is an
old  with surfing references to the "Big Kahuna" and I was reminded of it
when I saw this waterfall.
http://www.world-of-waterfalls.com/hawaii-kahuna-falls.html

Like the Kahuna Falls, DF13 may not be getting the attention it deserves. If it
was found a couple of years ago, we'd all be talking as R-DF13 people, with some recent discovery of an SNP, L21, just upstream of us. In other words, L21 could be like L459 or Z245 might be for us now and DF13 would be the star of the show.

Sorry about the divergence, but from a practical standpoint, there are a lot of
SNPs downstream of DF13. Before going into deeper exploration for those SNPs it makes sense to test for DF13 just to make sure you are going into the right
door. There is a side benefit in that figuring out who is DF13+ versus DF13- may be instrumental to determining the origins and migrations of L21.

As far as SNP testing goes, I'm primarily discussing a "top down" approach which is what one might use if they don't have any idea where they fit in and don't have anyone else in their cluster/variety with a like STR signature that has
done SNP testing. If you do have matches with SNP testing you might take
"targeted" approach rather than a "top down" approach. As has been mentioned, WTY testing must also be considered as an alternative approach and perhaps Geno 2.0, I just wish we knew what was in it.

Next post on this thread I'll provide some information the Big Six SNPs: DF49,
L513, Z255, Z253, DF21 and DF41. Their positioning is depicted here.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Descendancy_Tree.jpg

The information I post here will also be on the L21 Yahoo forum.
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Heber
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2012, 02:40:25 PM »

I want to run through a quick review of the Big Six SNPs and what we know about them today.

First, though, we should start out with the Big Kahuna, DF13. Just so you know
I'm only a little nuts, for a guy from Nebraska, Hawaii is amazing. There is an
old  with surfing references to the "Big Kahuna" and I was reminded of it
when I saw this waterfall.
http://www.world-of-waterfalls.com/hawaii-kahuna-falls.html

Like the Kahuna Falls, DF13 may not be getting the attention it deserves. If it
was found a couple of years ago, we'd all be talking as R-DF13 people, with some recent discovery of an SNP, L21, just upstream of us. In other words, L21 could be like L459 or Z245 might be for us now and DF13 would be the star of the show.

Sorry about the divergence, but from a practical standpoint, there are a lot of
SNPs downstream of DF13. Before going into deeper exploration for those SNPs it makes sense to test for DF13 just to make sure you are going into the right
door. There is a side benefit in that figuring out who is DF13+ versus DF13- may be instrumental to determining the origins and migrations of L21.

As far as SNP testing goes, I'm primarily discussing a "top down" approach which is what one might use if they don't have any idea where they fit in and don't have anyone else in their cluster/variety with a like STR signature that has
done SNP testing. If you do have matches with SNP testing you might take
"targeted" approach rather than a "top down" approach. As has been mentioned, WTY testing must also be considered as an alternative approach and perhaps Geno 2.0, I just wish we knew what was in it.

Next post on this thread I'll provide some information the Big Six SNPs: DF49,
L513, Z255, Z253, DF21 and DF41. Their positioning is depicted here.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Descendancy_Tree.jpg

The information I post here will also be on the L21 Yahoo forum.

Mike,

Thanks for starting this thread which is very timely as many of the new SNPs are settling down and we are beginning to see patterns emerge.
My particular area of interest is how my SNP DF21 got to the isles from M269.
I am also interested in SNPs associated with Gaelic language and culture and populations migrations both inbound and outbound from Ireland.
This is the picture I get when I plot the migrations of M269 to DF21. While U106 and P152 are also very important in the story they are not my primary area of interest.
I have plotted the SNPs which account for a high Gaelic component (5% or more) or which belong to a branch with a high Gaelic component. This accounts I believe for the majority of L21 SNPs tested to date.
Another conclusion is the importance of Iberia in the migration path with the results for
DF27,  M167,  DF49 and Z253.
We are beginning to see patterns where Clan names can be mapped to terminal SNPs. This is early days yet and we need more testing and analysis but it promises to be, for me, the most facinating part of this hobby.
Finally I look forward to the imminent publication of the POBI and Geno 2.0 to throw more light on this subject and the subsequent publication of the Irish DNA Atlas.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763708372/

If you need more supporting arguments they can be found on my Pinterest Board.

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-migrations-dna/

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 03:35:23 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


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Newragh
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« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2012, 06:59:10 PM »

Next post on this thread I'll provide some information the Big Six SNPs: DF49,
L513, Z255, Z253, DF21 and DF41. Their positioning is depicted here.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Descendancy_Tree.jpg

The information I post here will also be on the L21 Yahoo forum.
All the work that is being done is very much appreciated by people like me.

I used to import the ISOGG trees into Excel, but there are so many new SNPs that I can't keep up and now depend upon the excellent graphics that Mikewww supplies.

Like Heber, my interest is L21 in Ireland, in particular, the Uliad, and look forward to the rest of this series.
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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2012, 12:48:50 AM »

I want to run through a quick review of the Big Six SNPs and what we know about them today.
...
Next post on this thread I'll provide some information the Big Six SNPs: DF49,
L513, Z255, Z253, DF21 and DF41. Their positioning is depicted here.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Descendancy_Tree.jpg

My particular area of interest is how my SNP DF21 got to the isles from M269.
....

Let's review what data I have on DF21 to-date from our FTDNA projects data.

I can count 157 DF21+ confirmed folks in the R1b-L21 Haplotypes file. This
includes those tested positive for downstream SNPs. They fall into at least 22
different varieties of STR signatures. Beyond that there are 10 I can't place
into a variety with someone else of a different surname. This large number of
STR signatures plus the unnassigned indicates this subclade is old.

The modal for DF21 confirmed people is 2 (GD) off the modal for L21 @STRs and those two are 449 and CDYa, which are fast markers. This is another indicator that DF21 is old, nearly the age of L21.

Another indicator is the highest GD's from the DF21 modal within the group are
in the 20-25 range, where I can count 10 people.

The largest subgroup of DF21+ confirmed people is variety 21-425n-A1. This is
the 425=null guys. They are primarily in the Clan Colla project and this STR
signature is also known as Airghelli I.

If we count all the people that fit in fairly firm STR signature varieties that
are confirmed DF21+, I can find 576 haplotypes. Many of these are 21-425n-A1 so it begins to dominate (bias) the modal values. Here is the distribution by Old World country of DF21 predicted varieties.

England __ 53
France ___ 2
Germany __ 4
Ireland __ 265
Benelux __ 2
Nordic ___ 2
Scotland _ 69
Wales ____ 22

As always, keep in mind, our FTDNA project data is heavily biased towards
British Isles MDKAs, and American immigrant based ones at that. Testing in
Ireland is heaviest, next Scotland and then England. There is dramatic drop off
of testing as a percent of the population as you go to the Continent or
Scandinavia.

The branch of DF21 that is most apt to be continental is P314.2.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 12:55:08 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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Heber
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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2012, 05:05:18 AM »

Mike,
Thanks for the interesting analysis.
Is the Clan Colla cluster close to any of the available SNPs downstream of DF21?
I am waiting for the Geno 2.0 to see if the have better coverage of DF21, however if there is an obvious candidate I will test for it.
I am a close match to MacMahons in the Clan Colla cluster and my surname is a traditional Sept of the Ely O Carroll, which is also in DF21 and the historic origin of my family is Airghilla and Orial on the Erne River and Lake waterways.

http://www.mcmahonsofmonaghan.org/oriel_collas_to_macmahon.html
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 07:38:06 AM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2012, 07:39:29 AM »

The Clan Colla have a unique value of 9 at dys 505. So if you have it then you're in it.
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Heber
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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2012, 08:59:13 AM »

The Clan Colla have a unique value of 9 at dys 505. So if you have it then you're in it.

dys 505 does not appear to be on the 67 marker STR panels which I have.
I am 12 on dys 425. I understand Clan Colla is null (or 11) for this marker.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2012, 09:56:23 AM »

Mike,
Thanks for the interesting analysis.
Is the Clan Colla cluster close to any of the available SNPs downstream of DF21?
I am waiting for the Geno 2.0 to see if the have better coverage of DF21, however if there is an obvious candidate I will test for it.
I am a close match to MacMahons in the Clan Colla cluster and my surname is a traditional Sept of the Ely O Carroll, which is also in DF21 and the historic origin of my family is Airghilla and Orial on the Erne River and Lake waterways.

I don't know if the people represented by the genetic STR signature that I call 21-425n-A1 are Clan Colla or Airghelli I. This is why I don't like these kinds of labels.

I just know that 21-424n-A1 ends up overlaying the Clan Colla FTDNA project and the Airghelli I signature.  This is the off-modal signature.

425=null 511=9 505=9 and usually 385=11,15 413a=22 439>=13.

These people are easy to recognize with 67 markers. (EDIT:) However, Stoneman is correct that there is a near perfect alignment with 505=9, which is way below modal. 505 is in the 68-111 STR set.

Here are the most common surnames - Carroll, McMahon, McGuire, Calkins, McAuley. There other names, for instance, Biggins too.

They are DF21*, in other words they are P314.2- Z246- L720- and I'm pretty sure S190-.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Descendancy_Tree.jpg
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 11:03:12 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2012, 11:22:09 AM »

It's interesting that the two O'Carroll families are both showing DF21. However the genealogies have them as seperate lineages, which of course reflects the geographic realities as well.

Quote
Ó CEARBHAILL—I—O Carrowill, O Carwell, O Carvill, O'Carroll, Carroll, Carvill; 'descendant of Cearbhall' (a very common Irish personal name). There are several distinct families so named, of which the following are the best known: (1) Ó Cearbhaill of Eile, who derive their name and descent from Cearbhall, lord of Eile, who fought at Clontarf. The head of this family was originally lord of all Eile, which comprised the baronies of Clonlisk and Ballybritt, in the present Offaly, and Ikerrin and Eliogarty, in Co. Tipperary; but after the Anglo-Norman invasion, Ikerrin and Eliogarty became tributary to the Earl of Ormond, and only the portion of Eile subsequently called Ely O'Carroll, remained in possession of O'Carroll, who resided at Birr. This family is now very numerous. (2) Ó Cearbhaill, of Oriel. This family is of the same stock as the MacMahons and Maguires, and were chiefs of Oriel until about the period of the Anglo-Norman invasion, when they disappear from history. They are still numerous in Monaghan and Louth. (3) Ó Cearbhaill of Loch Lein, anciently chiefs of the Eoghanacht of Loch Lein, the district about Killarney, until dispossessed by the O'Donoghues. (4) Ó Cearbhaill of Ossory who are descended from Cearbhall, a celebrated chieftain of Ossory at the middle of the 9th century. (5) Ó Cearbhaill, of Tara, a branch of the southern Ui Neill. This family disappeared from history at an early period. (6) Ó Cearbhaill of Calry, in Sligo and Leitrim. The MacBradys of Cavan are said, but erroneously, to be a branch of this family.

In both cases they both descend from men who share the same firstname. In case of Éile that Cearbhall fought at Clontarf in 1014. In comparison the Ó Cearbhaill of "Clann Colla" are descended from a different Cearball who died circa 940AD.

Quote
Donchadh m. Con caisil m. Donaill m. Matgamna m. Laedcen m. Cearbhaill m. Mael Poil m. Fogartach m. Ruadrach m. Mail fogartaigh m. Airach m. Aithecda m. Mael duib m. Cronan m. Fergusa m. Nad sluaig
(m. = mac eg. son of)

Ua (middle Irish) = Ó (Modern Irish)

The last Ua Cearbhaill to hold kingship of Orighialla was Donchadh grandson Muircheartach Ua Cearbhaill, who was captured, blinded and hung by the Normans in 1194. The MacMahons descend from Muircheartach 1st cousin Mathghamhna (Mathúna) -- literally "bear cub".

Quote
Magnusa m. Matgamna m. Neill m. Dondchada m. Concaisil m. Domnaill m. Mathgamna m. Laidgnen m. Cerbaill m. Mailpoil m. Fogartaig m. Ruarach m. Mailfogartaigh m. Mailduin m. Mailfogartaig m. Ronain m. Fergusa m. Natsluaig

So the fist McMahon was Magnusa (Magnus) who was the great-grandson of Donchad Ua Cearbaill (King of Oirghialla).

Some notes:

Old Irish: Airgíalla (Airghíalla)
Middle/Early Modern Irish: Oirghialla
Modern Irish: Oirialla

The most common angliscation that was seen was Oriel -- even by the 12/13th century the word internal gh was silent, reason it was there was more tradition then anything. In modern Irish spelling it's no longer there, of course result is you loose the meaning. Giall = hostage (also means Jaw)

It's often basically translated to imply: "The Hostage givers". Some have gone as far as to identify the nine hostages of Niall with the nine subkingdoms of the Airgíalla at the time.

Niall Noígiallach (old Irish)
Niall na Naoi nGiallach (modern Irish)

So basically you had a tribal confederacy/kingdom known as the Airgíalla (old Irish period), this confederation had a unified genealogy that linked all nine kindreds to gether in descent from the Three Colla's. The "tribe" that the O'Carrolls and MacMahon's belong to was specifically the Uí Chremthainn within this they were descended from a man called Nad Sluaig, thence they formed Clann NadSluaig

Airgíalla
-> the three Colla's
---> Uí Cremthainn -- descended from Cremthainn who was 4 generations from a Colla
-----> Uí Nad Sluaig -- descended from Nad Sluaig grandson of Cremthann
--------> Ua Ceabhaill (O'Carroll)
-----------> Mac Mathghamhna (MacMahon)

Quote
Nadsluaigh, son of Cairpre Dam Argait, son of Eocho, son of Crimthann Lethan, son of Fiacc, son of Daig Duirn, son of Rochaid, son of Colla Fochríth (da-Chrioch).

Clann literally means "children"in Irish, most people mistakenly thinks it means family. So for example in Irish you can say "Tá Clann agam" (literally: I have a clann) to mean you have children.

So for example my son is part of my Clann, but my sister and my father aren't part of it.

However both myself and my son as well as my sister belong to the Clann of my father (as we are "descended" from him)
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Heber
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« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2012, 12:11:07 PM »

Paul,
Thanks. That is a facinating genealogy. When we get enough granualarity on these SNP trees, we should be able to map them to the Clan trees. I suspect many of the branches will have shifted around.
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Heber


 
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« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2012, 02:12:03 PM »

Heber
you could run your haplotype through Robert Casey's L21 SNP predictor and see are you close to any of them.I think Robert is light years ahead of anyone else in the dna field. Dys 505 is not in the 67 marker haplotype but you can test for it if you want.I think it is only nine dollars.
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« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2012, 05:28:04 PM »

Heber
you could run your haplotype through Robert Casey's L21 SNP predictor and see are you close to any of them.I think Robert is light years ahead of anyone else in the dna field. Dys 505 is not in the 67 marker haplotype but you can test for it if you want.I think it is only nine dollars.

Robert's predictor is not intended for these major, multiple signature SNPs.

Quote from: Robert Casey
The SNP Predictor tool currently only analyzes more recent and less broad Y-SNPs under R-L21
I added the emphasis.

SNP predictor tools are best at predicting when there is a lot of prior testing data available. They are best at predicting high probability positives. They are not as good at predicting negatives. That only makes sense that prediction methods won't work as well as for old aged, broad SNPs like the Big Six, or fairly new unexplored SNPs, like DF41 or DF49. You can't predict what you don't have data for. We are driving by looking in the rear view mirror.

Don't get me wrong. The tool is great. If you get a high "positive" read I'd say you may want to skip exploratory testing and test just for that particular SNP. If not, I think you have to go back and look at the Y DNA tree top down and systematically explore downstream SNPs.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 06:01:17 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2012, 07:09:26 AM »

I want to send a bulk email to the L21+ and DF13+ (x Yet Lucky) on "The Big Kahuna and the Big Six" this coming weekend. I promised someone I would send out one on DF49, so I will probably kill two birds with one stone: talk about the Big Kahuna and the Big Six and give DF49 a little extra advocacy.

I have to limit my bulk emails and space them out a bit. I seem to get complaints every time I send one out, even though I include instructions on how to opt out of receiving them.

I have been accused of getting kickbacks from FTDNA for selling dna tests.

I wish!
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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2012, 07:50:06 AM »

I have paid for tests that I didnt need. If I can help someone and save them money at the same time then I will do my best for them.


Heber
you could run your haplotype through Robert Casey's L21 SNP predictor and see are you close to any of them.I think Robert is light years ahead of anyone else in the dna field. Dys 505 is not in the 67 marker haplotype but you can test for it if you want.I think it is only nine dollars.

Robert's predictor is not intended for these major, multiple signature SNPs.

Quote from: Robert Casey
The SNP Predictor tool currently only analyzes more recent and less broad Y-SNPs under R-L21
I added the emphasis.

SNP predictor tools are best at predicting when there is a lot of prior testing data available. They are best at predicting high probability positives. They are not as good at predicting negatives. That only makes sense that prediction methods won't work as well as for old aged, broad SNPs like the Big Six, or fairly new unexplored SNPs, like DF41 or DF49. You can't predict what you don't have data for. We are driving by looking in the rear view mirror.

Don't get me wrong. The tool is great. If you get a high "positive" read I'd say you may want to skip exploratory testing and test just for that particular SNP. If not, I think you have to go back and look at the Y DNA tree top down and systematically explore downstream SNPs.
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« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2012, 08:10:06 AM »

I have paid for tests that I didnt need. If I can help someone and save them money at the same time then I will do my best for them.

I understand and appreciate that. I've paid for a number of tests I didn't need, at least in retrospect. I've also paid for tests I thought I didn't need and turned out I did.

I just think that predictor tools are limited. Much of the reason is that the STRs they use are subject to varying up and down, and sometimes in strange ways. The predictor tools also are subject to the amount of already available data and the representativeness of that data. Our data is heavily biased towards British Isles descended people... very heavily so.

Another problem with predictor tools is sometimes they produce precise (in appearance only) percentage numbers that are really arbitrary when probability theory was not used and no confidence intervals are provided with the predictions.

Also, there is a chicken and egg problem. If no one tests for a particular SNP, we have no data for it. Sometimes SNPs languish in a lost place place until someone stumbles upon them and shares that with the community. That's why I use the words "exploratory testing." We need exploratory testers and I thank those who do. They are furthering the whole field along with the citizen scientists. The exploratory testers discover more about the Y DNA phylogeny and validate it.

I don't say don't use predictor tools. I say use them as appropriate. If you get a positive hit on one then I would definitely consider testing for that SNP first.

I also say you should compare and communicate with others and pool resources where it makes sense. A lot of the reason I maintain a spreadsheet of haplotypes that are accessible by project members is to help them do this. This is actually another form of "predicting", just not a tool. Usually, there are points in time where folks, or a pool of folks, need to order WTY tests to discover new SNPs.  Of course, Geno 2.0 is a definite option, particularly for someone who has not done any deep clade testing.

Of course, it's better to be lucky than good. It's also good to be born with a crazy relative. I'm the crazy on the DNA testing but I have a second cousin who is crazy in genealogy research. I can't believe what he has turned up.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 06:16:19 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2012, 08:18:15 AM »

I want to send a bulk email to the L21+ and DF13+ (x Yet Lucky) on "The Big Kahuna and the Big Six" this coming weekend. I promised someone I would send out one on DF49, so I will probably kill two birds with one stone: talk about the Big Kahuna and the Big Six and give DF49 a little extra advocacy.

I have to limit my bulk emails and space them out a bit. I seem to get complaints every time I send one out, even though I include instructions on how to opt out of receiving them.

I have been accused of getting kickbacks from FTDNA for selling dna tests.

I wish!

Rich, few people understand the amount of work a good project administrator does. You are the best. I thank you for your tireless (and amazingly quick) work in researching, recruiting, validating and managing the subgroupings, and communicating.

The administrator software is a little funky to make it all the more fun... cough! cough!

I appreciate your emails and they are not too frequent.
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« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2012, 03:56:51 AM »

Just came back DF49* !!!!!!  :)
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« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2012, 07:57:37 AM »

Just came back DF49* !!!!!!  :)

Yes, you did!

I now pronounce you Niall's grandfather and grant you 27 hostages, all members of the Swedish bikini team. ;-)
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« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2012, 08:16:51 AM »

Just came back DF49* !!!!!!  :)

Congratulations Jean. With your renewed interest in this SNP,  I look forward to future expert insights into this SNP which I believe is important in our understanding of DF13, L21 and their ancestors.

Thanks Eder, yes I'll be putting my thinking cap on WRT DF49
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« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2012, 08:04:39 PM »

I want to send a bulk email to the L21+ and DF13+ (x Yet Lucky) on "The Big Kahuna and the Big Six" this coming weekend. I promised someone I would send out one on DF49, so I will probably kill two birds with one stone: talk about the Big Kahuna and the Big Six and give DF49 a little extra advocacy.

I have to limit my bulk emails and space them out a bit. I seem to get complaints every time I send one out, even though I include instructions on how to opt out of receiving them.

I have been accused of getting kickbacks from FTDNA for selling dna tests.

I wish!

Rich, few people understand the amount of work a good project administrator does. You are the best. I thank you for your tireless (and amazingly quick) work in researching, recruiting, validating and managing the subgroupings, and communicating.

The administrator software is a little funky to make it all the more fun... cough! cough!

I appreciate your emails and they are not too frequent.


I wanted to thank you for that, Mike. I appreciate the kind words, and I don't mind quoting them! :-)
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« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2012, 05:16:15 AM »

[cross-posted from Yahoo L21 group; have been closely working to classify all of the WTY results as either R-L21**, R-DF13**, or a subclade of R-DF13. Easy kits have been largely dealt with at this point, it is getting down to some folks who are way behind on testing.]

Thanks, Nigel. With your previous WTY results, if you turn out to be Z255-
DF49-, you would then be a fully tested R-DF13**.

That leaves five WTY results that have not been previously discussed whose
position in the R-L21 tree is uncertain. Note that this is not an academic
exercise in testing--in the last several weeks, we had three kits move from
undifferentiated R-L21/R-DF13 to either R-DF49 or R-DF41 because additional
tests were ordered.

(36 WTY kits resolve to a subclade of R-DF13, 17 resolve to R-DF13**, and one to
R-DF21**.)

WTY Results that are not fully positioned in the R-L21 tree
==============================================================
Maxwell: Kit 3204, with SNP results blended in from kit 200125
Variety 1210
Need to test: DF49 L513 Z253 L371 L555

Simmons: Kit 10505
Variety 1511-A
Need to test: DF13 DF49 Z253 Z255 DF21 DF41

Furry: Kit 21869, with SNP results blended in from kit 6599 (Wilson)
Variety 1515-Who
Need to test: DF49 L513 Z253 Z255 DF21 L371 DF41 L555

Unk: Kit 24273, with SNP results blended in from kit 186657 (Blair)
Variety 711
Need to test: DF49 L513 Z255 L371 DF41 L555

Secher: Kit E5945
Variety 1420
Need to test: DF49 L513 Z255 L371 DF41 L555 (DF21 Z253 on order)

Regards,
david

--- In RL21Project@yahoogroups.com, "jnigelbond" <jnigelbond@...> wrote:
>
> David, Kirsten,
>
> With all the excitement re recent results, I have ordered DF49 while waiting
for my Z255 results. I hope FTDNA will run both at the same time. That will
complete L679 Big Six testing ....
>
> Nigel 170191
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rms2
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« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2012, 08:35:22 AM »

I just finished submitting a bulk email to go out to the DF13+ members of the R-L21 Plus Project who have not yet tested positive for any of the downstream SNPs. It should go out once FTDNA has approved it.

Quote
***THIS EMAIL IS INTENDED ONLY FOR MEMBERS IN CATEGORY C. DF13+ (L21>DF13; CHECK DF49, L513, L96, L144, Z255, Z253, DF21,L371, AND DF41)***

Dear Friends,

I know I sent you an email just last weekend, and many of you responded by ordering DF41 (Thanks! I ordered it, too), but things are happening fast in the world of L21 these days, and I want to keep you up to date. So please bear with me.

If you have not yet done so, I suggest you test for DF49, as well as DF41. DF49 is the "grandfather" of M222, so to speak. It is immediately downstream of DF13 and has been growing steadily in the number of positive results. Again, as always, I cannot promise you a positive result, but Mike Walsh has characterized DF49 as one of the "Big Six" SNPs that every DF13+ man should test: DF49, L513, Z255, Z253, DF21 and DF41. I agree. Those six SNPs downstream of DF13 characterize fairly old and large subclades. If you can afford to do so, you should test for them.

If you don't get a positive result for one of the "Big Six", you can try one of the apparently much smaller and younger DF13+ branch SNPs: L371, L96, L144, L555, and L583. The likelihood of a positive hit for one of those is smaller than it is for the Big Six, but they are still worth testing.

The other DF13+ SNPs you may have heard about are actually branchlets off the main branches listed above. It is best to test for the main branches and wait for a positive result on one of them before testing their offspring, unless you have at least one close 67-marker or higher match with a man who has already tested positive for one of them.

My co-administrator Mike Walsh has created a very nice R-L21 Phylogenetic Tree that may make things easier to understand: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Descendancy_Tree.jpg


Please be fully aware that it is possible to be DF13+ and yet negative for all of the currently known SNPs downstream of DF13. We already have a number of men in that category. The fact is that we still do not know everything there is to know about L21. Much remains to be discovered.

To order any of the Big Six SNPs, just go to your "myFTDNA" pages and click on "Order Upgrade" in the upper right. Scroll down and click on "Order an Advanced Test" (under the heading "Advanced Tests"). On the next screen, click the drop-down menu on the "Test Type" box and choose "SNP". Then, in the "Marker" box, type the name of the SNP. Click "Find". That SNP should come up, showing a $29 price. Click "Add" and then the little orange "Next" button in the lower right. After that, just complete the fields to order the test.

Thanks!

Richard Stevens
R-L21 Plus Project

To stop receiving bulk emails from the R-L21 Plus Project:

1. Go to your myFTDNA pages.

2. Click on "My Account" at the top left and then on "Personal Profile".

3. Click on "Account Settings".

4. Click on "Match and Email Settings".

5. Find "Project E-mail Settings" on the right. Click on the "No" button beneath "Subscribe to 'bulk' e-mails sent by my project administrators".

That should do it.

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2012, 04:08:30 PM »

I just finished submitting a bulk email to go out to the DF13+ members of the R-L21 Plus Project who have not yet tested positive for any of the downstream SNPs. It should go out once FTDNA has approved it.

Very good. I hope the general "old" R-L21* population will pursue what we now know about L21 subclades. It's amazing what has been discovered.

I see you cited me, too. I'm not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing, but I guess I should respond to questions as needed since I'm a proponent of testing.

I just went through a couple of projects last night. I can't believe how many probable L513 folks I'm finding. I use to think it was a small clade. I think all of the Big Six could have a thousand or more folks in projects within a year or two. I confess I'm most intrigued with Z253 because of it geographic spread to go with a strong (apparent) Gaelic tie or two.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 04:11:38 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
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« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2012, 07:52:45 PM »

I am wondering why FTDNA hasn't yet sent out my bulk emails from this weekend.
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« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2012, 11:10:45 AM »

I want to run through a quick review of the Big Six SNPs and what we know about them today.
...
Next post on this thread I'll provide some information the Big Six SNPs: DF49,
L513, Z255, Z253, DF21 and DF41. Their positioning is depicted here.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Descendancy_Tree.jpg

I reviewed some statistics on DF21, but let's run through the data from FTDNA projects for Z253 now.

I count 224 Z253+ confirmed folks in the R1b-L21 Haplotypes file. This
includes those tested positive for downstream SNPs, most noteworthy of which is L226 (1189-T3 Irish III.)  Z253 has at at least 39 different varieties of STR signatures. Beyond that there are 22 I can't place into a variety with someone else of a different surname. This large number of STR signatures plus the unnassigned indicates this subclade is old.

The modal for Z253 is about a GD=8 @67 from the L21 modal. This is biased by the large number of L226/1189-T3 identified in our projects. If you remove the L226 people, the GD for the rest of Z253 is only GD=1 from the L21 modal.

There are 28 Z253+ people with GDs of 20 or greater @67 to the modal for Z253. The highest GD is 27 so you can Z253 is quite old.

If we count all the people that fit in fairly firm STR signature varieties that
are confirmed DFZ253+, I can find 705 haplotypes. Here are the breakdowns among Old World MDKAs.

England __ 67
France ___ 6
Germany __ 1
Iberia ___ 13
Ireland __ 161
Benelux __ 1
Nordic ___ 6
Scotland _ 61
Switzerland 1
Wales ____ 4

It's interesting that Z253 has a very heavy Irish contingent in its L226/Irish III group that is clearly concentrated in Munster and has not spread out much. At the same time there are Z253 people from Iberia and Switzerland, although of different types.

A major newly discovered SNP based subclade is in the works. L1066 appears to be parallel to L226 and encompasse a wide variety of Z253 people. The 252-1066-T4/Irish IV/Continental people are a subset of L1066.

Let's review what data I have on DF21 to-date from our FTDNA projects data.

I can count 157 DF21+ confirmed folks in the R1b-L21 Haplotypes file. This
includes those tested positive for downstream SNPs. They fall into at least 22
different varieties of STR signatures. Beyond that there are 10 I can't place
into a variety with someone else of a different surname. This large number of
STR signatures plus the unnassigned indicates this subclade is old.

The modal for DF21 confirmed people is 2 (GD) off the modal for L21 @STRs and those two are 449 and CDYa, which are fast markers. This is another indicator that DF21 is old, nearly the age of L21.

Another indicator is the highest GD's from the DF21 modal within the group are
in the 20-25 range, where I can count 10 people.

The largest subgroup of DF21+ confirmed people is variety 21-425n-A1. This is
the 425=null guys. They are primarily in the Clan Colla project and this STR
signature is also known as Airghelli I.

If we count all the people that fit in fairly firm STR signature varieties that
are confirmed DF21+, I can find 576 haplotypes. Many of these are 21-425n-A1 so it begins to dominate (bias) the modal values. Here is the distribution by Old World country of DF21 predicted varieties.

England __ 53
France ___ 2
Germany __ 4
Ireland __ 265
Benelux __ 2
Nordic ___ 2
Scotland _ 69
Wales ____ 22
...
The branch of DF21 that is most apt to be continental is P314.2.

As always, keep in mind, our FTDNA project data is heavily biased towards British Isles MDKAs, and American immigrant based ones at that. Testing in Ireland is heaviest, next Scotland and then England. There is dramatic drop off of testing as a percent of the population as you go to the Continent or Scandinavia.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 03:51:15 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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