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Author Topic: About Z2103/Z2105 and L150, L584, L277 etc.  (Read 4161 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: September 02, 2012, 04:47:54 AM »

On another thread (Variance of R1b-L23+ Calculated from Academic Studies) I wrote on May,15,2012:

“Of course for me the design is clear. From L150 we have with the SNPs Z2103-Z2105 the Tuscan NA20532 and the Chinese NA18645. Who is wondering of a Chinese close to a Tuscan, go and read my posting on Rootsweb before my banishment when I found a Hui close to me in the STRs and spoke about the paper on the Roman Army at Liqian (the survivors of the defeat at Carrhae who were deported at Merv and after fought against Chinese with the White Huns). Downstream of these we have HG01277 (CLM) and HG01515 (IBS Iberians) with the SNPs Z2108-Z2110.

Downstream L51 we have the Tuscan NA20785 with the SNPs Z2111-Z2119 and downstream we have the Tuscan NA20537 and HG01066 (PUR) with the SNP Z2120.
Then for me it is clear: from Tuscany to Iberia. From Iberia to the Isles and of course to South America.
The Chinese is an outlier, probably a descendant of some Etruscan who was in the Roman Army of Marcus Licinius Crassus”.

Now we may discuss about the origin of this Hui and of others and many could be the solutions, but I’d want to ask above all Richard Rocca this:
In a spreadsheet I printed of their work on 1KGP (I don’t know if it is always reachable now) I have this:

Added to spreadsheet 8/2/2011
Last updated 5/13/2012
NA18645 Y R1b1a2a1*: M207+ L23+ L49.1+ L150+ L51- U152- P297- L584- /CHB/ “appears to be L277+"

Apart P297- (to be clarified), what about L584-? If L277 is +, it would be the first case found where a Z2103/Z2105+ is L584- and L277+.

I make you note that another Hui gets my haplotype: 12,24,15,10,11-14,12,12,12,13,13 (my 12 is recent),29, but I am by 23andMe both L584- (I remember it was discovered when I invited my Iranian friend to send his data to Adriano Squecco) and L277-.



« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 08:20:42 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2012, 05:49:52 AM »

Z2103/Z2105+ and L277+ are also the Burkholders. One has been tested and is linked to the other B. known by the researches of Wayne Kaufmann. Also the diffusion of L277+, from Italy and Switzerland to Middle East and India, could be due to these Roman soldiers I spoke about if other hypotheses won't be proved.
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Maliclavelli


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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2012, 10:02:21 AM »

Gioiello, I just checked the positions for sample NA18645. He appears to be:

P297+      C
L584-      C
L277?      No data at that location
Z2103+      C
Z2105+      A
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2012, 11:36:47 AM »

Gioiello, I just checked the positions for sample NA18645. He appears to be:

P297+      C
L584-      C
L277?      No data at that location
Z2103+      C
Z2105+      A

Many thanks, Richard. Then he is like the other Tuscan R-L51 of the 1KGP, and perhaps like me, if I were Z2103+ and Z2105+, seen the haplotype of the Hui we know from YHRD and is the closest to me. Anyway, as I wrote yesterday to Belgieri, who manages the tests of Romitti, if there is a place all over the world where probably we’ll find some R-L150+ and Z2103- or Z2105- it is Tuscany and Italy.
The picture seems to me is becoming clear and probably with these last tests we’ll be going to get a solution of the question.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2012, 11:35:47 PM »

4 15 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
3 15 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
2 15 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 11 15 19 14 17 23 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
2 15 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 13 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 17 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 19 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 13 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 11 14 19 17 17 24 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 13 15 19 15 16 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 13 15 19 15 16 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 13 15 19 16 16 24 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 13 12 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
2 of 645 Prague, Czech Republic [Czech] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
2 of 255 Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil [European] Eurasian - European - Western European Latin America
1 of 637 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
1 of 1079 Australia [European] Eurasian - European - Western European Oceania / Australia
1 of 205 Bahia, Brazil [Admixed Brazilian] Admixed Latin America
1 of 220 East Croatia, Croatia [Croatian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 97 Reggio di Calabria, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 101 Athens, Greece [Greek] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 427 Córdoba, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 91 Caceres, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 130 Modena, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 245 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 281 Munich, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 300 Brasilia, Brazil [Admixed Brazilian] Admixed Latin America
1 of 118 Ningxia, China [Hui] East Asian - Sino-Tibetan - Chinese Asia
1 of 942 Gdansk, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 99 Strasbourg, France [French] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 15 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 13 15 19 15 16 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 13 15 19 15 16 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 637 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [Admixed] Admixed Latin America
1 of 130 Modena, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

Name Elizeu Fagundes de Carvalho, Andrea Carla de Souza Góes, Dayse A. Silva (YC000100) Address Laboratorio de Diagnósticos por DNA
Instituto de Biologia
Universidade do Estado do Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Email elizeu@uerj.br Phone Fax QC since (GEP-ISFG QC; typing has been done at the IPATIMUP (Porto, Portugal)) Accession Number YA003720 Contribution 637 haplotypes Reference

N92C5  Anonymous Brazilian tested by SMGF
12 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 13 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-14-16-17 10 11 19-23 15
DYS438=12
DYS635=23
He is the closest to me and to my relative Giancarlo Tognoni (MRCA 15th century) and demonstrates that DYS439 was 13 (Brazilian, Modenese, Hui) before my 12 and DYS456 was 15 before my 16. Of course H4=12 (YHRD) is our 11.
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Maliclavelli


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vineviz
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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2012, 08:30:33 AM »

what about L584-? If L277 is +, it would be the first case found where a Z2103/Z2105+ is L584- and L277+.

So far, every one who is L23+ is either  Z2105+ or L51+.  No L23+ men have yet tested negative for both of these markers.

Included in the Z2105+ subclade (Z2103 is so far phylogenetically equivalent to Z2105) are L277 and L584.

Also now known to be Z2105 is one of the two anomalous L23+ L150- men, thus confirming that L150 is NOT a proper subclade of L23.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ysnp
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vineviz
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« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2012, 08:33:30 AM »


http://vizachero.com/R1b1/rm69.png
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 08:33:53 AM by vineviz » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2012, 08:53:25 AM »

I am going to post this in a new thread, but I post this also here as a first answer to you. You have lost, and I am winning. Probably you have already tested Romitti like you did in the past without his permission, but this doesn't demonstrate anything. You will see that the R-L51/Z2105- will be found in Tuscany/Italy.
Here is the last paper of Anatole Klyosov, one who has written a lot about the origin of R1a from central Asia, and he doesn't take in consideration R1a* you know (because it is a project of yours) that it is above all "European".

Rozhanskii, I.L. and Klyosov, A.A. (2012). Haplogroup R1a, Its Subclades and Branches in Europe During the Last 9,000 Years. Advances in Anthropology, 3, 139-156.doi: 10.4236/aa.2012.23017.
ABSTRACT

This study identifies and describes 38 branches of the haplogroup R1a STR haplotypes which currently exist in Europe or which migrated from Europe to areas in the east, south, and southeast between 6000 and 4500 years before the present (ybp). The study is based on 2471 haplotypes which have been tested for either 67- or 111-markers; it essentially creates a unified robust system, which assembles dozens of R1a-SNPs and thousands of STRs and assigned haplotypes to branches, some of which do not have SNP assignments as yet. The assembled system consists of base (deduced ancestral) haplotypes, one for each STR branch and for each SNP-assigned subclade, each with its characteristic (ancestral) set of alleles, arranged in the chronological space from ~ 9000 ybp to 1300 ybp. We found that the most ancient R1a subclades (R1a1-M198- and R1a1a-M198+/M417-) bearers of which currently live in Europe (the present day haplotypes are scattered between England and the Balkans) appeared in Europe at least 7300 ybp, and possibly 9000 ybp. R1a’s three principal downstream subclades, L664 (North-Western branch), Z93 (South-Eastern branch), and Z283 (Eurasian branch), split from their common European ancestor at about the same time, around 7000 - 6000 ybp. L664 apparently stayed in North-Western Europe; its lineage recovered and began expanding ~ 4575 ybp. The Z93 subclade began to expand during the Aryan migrations, on the Aryan's journey to India and the Middle East in the 3rd-2nd millennia BC. The Z283 subclade split ~ 5500 ybp into three branches. One of them, Z280 (the Central Eurasian branch) moved east to the Russian Plain in 4800 - 4600 ybp, and formed at least 16 sub-branches there and in the course of the later westward repopulation of Europe in the 1st millennium BC – 1st millennium CE. Some of the older branches, like the Russian Plain branch, largely stayed in the present Russia-Ukraine-Belarus-Poland- Baltic countries region, and were described by early historians as the Scythians, Antes, Veneti, and a multitude of different proto-Slavic tribes (though many of them belonged to haplogroups other than R1a, primarily I1 and I2). Those R1a branches which are “older” than 3000 years, such as the Russian Plain branch (4600 ybp), the Western Eurasian (4300 ybp), and the Balto-Carpathian (4300 ybp), did not move en mass to Europe but stayed behind at the Russian Plain. In the middle of 1st millennium CE, the time of the collapse of the Roman Empire , multiple migrations of R1a were taking place eastward and westward; these migrations gradually formed the current landscape of R1a in Europe . All 38 branches and their datings are listed in the Appendix of this paper; current distribution maps are shown in the body of the paper.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 09:04:20 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2012, 09:00:33 AM »

Also now known to be Z2105 is one of the two anomalous L23+ L150- men, thus confirming that L150 is NOT a proper subclade of L23.
What are you saying? L150- was important because it was equivalent to L23/L49.1+, then before the mutation 150+. If it is a back mutation (but you shall test Romitti, and if you have done without his permission, you shall publish his result), it will be diriment where we'll find R-L150+/Z2103-. We will see where these haplotypes will be found.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 09:03:03 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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razyn
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« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2012, 09:25:59 AM »

Also the diffusion of L277+, from Italy and Switzerland to Middle East and India, could be due to these Roman soldiers I spoke about if other hypotheses won't be proved.

Do the other hypotheses include the possibility of its arrival in the Alpine region, untainted by a few thousand years of more local genetic developments (such as the P312 and U106 trees), as a result of some more eastern R1b guys' having been recruited into (or enslaved by) the said Roman army?

I'm aware that such a condition would assume that L277 then found itself in something of a genetic refugium -- but not necessarily from the ice covering everybody farther north, in a territory that we know was well populated by Roman army days.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2012, 09:31:50 AM »

Also the diffusion of L277+, from Italy and Switzerland to Middle East and India, could be due to these Roman soldiers I spoke about if other hypotheses won't be proved.

Do the other hypotheses include the possibility of its arrival in the Alpine region, untainted by a few thousand years of more local genetic developments (such as the P312 and U106 trees), as a result of some more eastern R1b guys' having been recruited into (or enslaved by) the said Roman army?

I'm aware that such a condition would assume that L277 then found itself in something of a genetic refugium -- but not necessarily from the ice covering everybody farther north, in a territory that we know was well populated by Roman army days.
Of course this is a possibility, but I have always said that what is worth is the pathway of a haplogroup, and Italy and Europe has it: R1b1 with YCAII=18-22 and 18-23, R1b1a2 with YCAII=17-23 (like the most ancient), R-L51 clearly born in Italy etc.
Imagine if I had a project and could do the test I think on Mangino/Mancini!
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2012, 10:00:41 AM »

Of course my hypothesis of the Roman soldiers should be verified, and I myself put it like only an hypothesis, but if it were true, your hypothesis would be discarded, because the army of Marcus Licinius Crassus (we were on 53 BC) unfortunately was composed only by Italics. Unfortunately because 20,000 died, 10,000 survived and other 10,000 were the prisoners I spoke about.
Anyway genetics will be clear only when we will have deepen the history: Mithridates make 90,000 Italics merchants and their families kill, but many and more returned and peopled Anatolia like other parts of the Empire. Mithridates paid for this when the army of Lucius Cornelius Sulla (30,000 soldiers) annihilated completely his army (200,000 mercenaries) commanded by Greek strategists
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« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2012, 10:38:03 AM »

Not really my hypothesis, just another way of parsing the same interesting (but extremely thin) data.  Somebody is a remnant, somebody is an outlier, someplace is the source.  We just don't yet know who, or where, etc.  (Well, I don't.  You've been telling us for years.)  I also look forward to the discovery of the unknown SNPs that should have occurred between Tuscan L51* and the present -- wherever they may be found.  One possibility: in Tuscany.  It's theoretically an interesting topic, but one that shouldn't be viewed through a pipe.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2012, 10:54:44 AM »

...You have lost, and I am winning. Probably you have already tested Romitti like you did in the past without his permission, but this doesn't demonstrate anything. You will see that the R-L51/Z2105- will be found in Tuscany/Italy...

Geez, you would think that someone who has been stuck at L23 for a long time would welcome such an announcement and show a little gratitude.
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« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2012, 11:44:25 AM »


Also now known to be Z2105 is one of the two anomalous L23+ L150- men, thus confirming that L150 is NOT a proper subclade of L23.


Interesting, so I guess the majority of us in R1b (i.e. those who are L51+) will be losing a letter in our ISOGG haplogroup designations.
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Jdean
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« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2012, 12:05:29 PM »


Also now known to be Z2105 is one of the two anomalous L23+ L150- men, thus confirming that L150 is NOT a proper subclade of L23.


Interesting, so I guess the majority of us in R1b (i.e. those who are L51+) will be losing a letter in our ISOGG haplogroup designations.

That's something to look forward to, I may even consider trying to commit my haplogroup name to memory again :)
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2012, 12:12:37 PM »

Geez, you would think that someone who has been stuck at L23 for a long time would welcome such an announcement and show a little gratitude.

I have been banned four or five times from many forums only for having expressed my ideas. If you permit me I prefer the Italian Vizzaccaros who are R-M73.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2012, 01:51:37 PM »

You have lost, and I am winning. Probably you have already tested Romitti like you did in the past without his permission, but this doesn't demonstrate anything.

1.  I caution you to stick to facts, and leave out the character attacks.  I don't know how many times you must be warned before you accept it.

2.  I never tested Romitti (or anyone else) without permission for anything.  The only results I have for anyone are ones they paid for and which are public knowledge.

3.  The L23+ L150- Z2105+ result DOES demonstrate something: it demonstrates that the L150 is not a subclade of L23.  If it were, such a result (L23+ L150- Z2105+) would not be possible but it exists nonetheless.  Moreover, we have the explanation for WHY L150 is not reliable that we have had from the beginning: the DNA sequence surround L150 is not unique to that SNP but exists elsewhere in the genome, as can be quite readily seen when observing the  trace results in alignment.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2012, 03:09:48 PM »

1.  I caution you to stick to facts, and leave out the character attacks.  I don't know how many times you must be warned before you accept it.

2.  I never tested Romitti (or anyone else) without permission for anything.  The only results I have for anyone are ones they paid for and which are public knowledge.

3.  The L23+ L150- Z2105+ result DOES demonstrate something: it demonstrates that the L150 is not a subclade of L23.  If it were, such a result (L23+ L150- Z2105+) would not be possible but it exists nonetheless.  Moreover, we have the explanation for WHY L150 is not reliable that we have had from the beginning: the DNA sequence surround L150 is not unique to that SNP but exists elsewhere in the genome, as can be quite readily seen when observing the  trace results in alignment.

I don’t want to do useless polemics. I have already said too much. Anyway Romitti received his result for L150 (he did know to be L150- by 23andme) only one or two days after his order. I wrote letters about this and you know that Belgieri does know it. How do you explain this? But this is the thing that less interests me.
By a theoretic point of view you cannot be aware of Romitti’s position as to Z2105 before testing him. That he was the unique L150- with Seymour doesn’t make them the same, as I won’t know my position without testing me (thing that I have non intention to do thus far), even though the link I presuppose with this Hui and probably with the R-L23 Tuscan of 1KGP makes me think that I am positive. Anyway my haplotype on 111 markers is very close to all the L11 subclades (much more than the Eastern haplotypes), then I or someone close to me I am sure that is Z2105-.

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« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2012, 03:33:30 PM »

By a theoretic point of view you cannot be aware of Romitti’s position as to Z2105 before testing him.
This is true, and I hope he will test Z2105.  So far, I have heard nothing about whether he will or not.

However, we already knew his L150- result was spurious.  It persisted on the ISOGG and FTDNA tree only because of the supposed confirmation by Seymour, a confirmation that is now shown to be mistaken.

VV
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2012, 03:48:54 PM »

This is true, and I hope he will test Z2105.  So far, I have heard nothing about whether he will or not.

However, we already knew his L150- result was spurious.  It persisted on the ISOGG and FTDNA tree only because of the supposed confirmation by Seymour, a confirmation that is now shown to be mistaken.

VV

Anyhow this 1KGP has given us this advantage: about L150 we have discussed a lot and it hasn’t resolved anything, because unreliable etc. Now we have Z2105, which is high reliable. The challenge is about this now. But we have other SNPs: Z2111-2119, Z2120 close to L51 and we have here 3 Tuscans out of 51 tested and out of 1000 people all over the world.
The ancient logicians said that… if there is smoke, there is fire!
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« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2012, 07:06:35 PM »

As identified by Leon Kull a new R-L277 has been added to Adriano's 23andMe list.  We now have a Sawyer lineage to get some FTDNA results for.
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« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2012, 10:38:00 PM »

As identified by Leon Kull a new R-L277 has been added to Adriano's 23andMe list.  We now have a Sawyer lineage to get some FTDNA results for.

Many thanks, Wayne. Unfortunately I am not able to see by my PC the “Adriano’s spreadsheet” for the part which contains R-M269, whereas I see the other one, this from when I was banned by Dna-forums and the spreadsheet was linked to it. Anyway I can see it from my school. Then it seems that L277+ may go from the Isles to India, i.e. all the Indo-European world, whereas L584+ is restricted to Middle East. Also this shall be understood.
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« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2012, 03:07:53 AM »

As identified by Leon Kull a new R-L277 has been added to Adriano's 23andMe list.  We now have a Sawyer lineage to get some FTDNA results for.

Many thanks, Wayne. Unfortunately I am not able to see by my PC the “Adriano’s spreadsheet” for the part which contains R-M269, whereas I see the other one, this from when I was banned by Dna-forums and the spreadsheet was linked to it. Anyway I can see it from my school. Then it seems that L277+ may go from the Isles to India, i.e. all the Indo-European world, whereas L584+ is restricted to Middle East. Also this shall be understood.

It looks like a  portion of L584- can fall into the following groups 391 10 or 11 and 464D 17/18/19. What do you think?

12_24_14_11_11-14_12 X DYS464-14_15_16_17
12_24_14_11_11-14_12 X DYS464-14_15_16_18
12_24_14_11_11-14_12 X DYS464-14_15_16_19

12_24_14_10_11-14_12 XDYS464-14_15_16_17
12_24_14_10_11-14_12 XDYS464-14_15_16_18
12_24_14_10_11-14_12 XDYS464-14_15_16_19)

These clusters are very uncommon in the R1b projects L584 and Western branches.
I also suspect that U98VT[1180 Czech sample] would fall into one of these clusters as well ,

86CDC-Bashkir1
FEPAF-Lak/Osset
HFQK3- Kyrgystan
RTMAY- Kazakhstan
#204505- Pakistan
N49273 -Gujarit, India
195191-Ghosh- India


 

« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 03:10:29 AM by acekon » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2012, 06:37:19 AM »

195191-Ghosh- India   is L277+
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