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avalon
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« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2012, 10:55:38 AM »

rms2

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"Predominantly dark haired" is not the same thing as "not fair" or "swarthy". When I wrote that the Welsh are mostly very fair and British looking, that was not "simply not true". It is true. The Welsh are not a dark-skinned, swarthy people

I never said that the Welsh were swarthy or dark skinned. If you read an earlier post of mine I said that swarthy, dark skinned Welsh are not that common. My point is about hair colour and eye colour. You can have dark brown hair and eyes and still not be dark skinned.

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My observation of northern Europeans in general, including the Germans and Dutch, is that they are dark haired.

Are you kidding me? Dutch and Germans are generally fairer than average Brits in my experience.

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I recall from some of your earlier posts that you cited Beddoe to the effect that Wales had a higher percentage of brown eyed people than did England. Still, in Wales, brown was not the predominant eye color. As I recall it accounted for roughly one third of the population. Having a slightly higher frequency of brown eyes than England does not make Wales the swarthy anomaly of British isles nations.

According to Fleure 1958, whose survey was larger than Beddoe, brown eyes for Wales was about 46-48% which is not just slightly higher than England, but actually significantly higher than Eastern parts of England where brown eyes vary between about 10 and 30% according to Beddoe.

There are parts of Wales - Plynlimon Moorland, Bala Cleft, Mynydd Hiraethog and Teifiside where dark brown or black hair accounts for over 70% of the population.

I challenge you to find me a hair study anywhere in England, Holland, Germany, Denmark or Scandinavia that finds dark hair to be as high as it is in Wales?

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Perhaps I am mistaken, but I detect a kind of anti-Celtic animus in the general tone of your posts that disturbs me. If I am wrong, instead of getting angry at me for thinking that, perhaps you should try not to create that impression.

That made me laugh. God knows where you got that impression from!

As it happens, I am 75% Welsh and proud. Cymru am byth!







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inver2b1
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« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2012, 11:03:07 AM »

Wasn't there some Italian migration to Dublin some time in the last couple centuries? I think I heard about it on some Dublin radio show, from what I rememberd it was form Central Italy. Nothing massive but just a bit out of the ordinary for the time.

Oh yes.  Most of the best chip shops and ice cream shops in Ireland are run by Italian families. Same in Scotland and I imagine elsewhere in Britian too. John Lynch who was in (Cal, In the name of the father, some mothers son etc)  and his sister Susan Lynch (also an actress) have an Italian mother and the Irish comedian Frank Carson was half Italian too.  There are several more but my minds gone blank.   

I wonder what kind of impact (small scale obviously) trading and fishing had in the last 500 or 600 years. I read an nteresting bookk recently called Cod, about Cod fishings role throughout history. When you consider Portuguese and Basques were fishing the North Atlantic heavily even pre Columbus' voyage there must have been some interaction with coastal communities.
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« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2012, 11:05:31 AM »

The mention of stereotypes reminds me of the classic 1960's-70's  BBC TV series 'The Likely Lads'. In one episode, the even-handed Bob gets bigoted Terry to give one-line summaries of the various European nationalities.  In this PC age, I don't suppose I can can list them here, but his descriptions may well have reflected what many thought. I suppose the point is that if people are brought up being given stereotypes, then maybe they lock in - even if not necessarily accurate.
Re hair colouring etc: I remember standing at the back of terraces at football & rugby matches in England in the late 60s & early 70s when longer hair was the norm. Looking down from above, I remember we remarked how all you could see was a mass of hair in varying shades of brown, with the odd  being very noticeable.
Not the sort of research a university professor would be interested in!!!
Bob


It is true that actual vivily  hair as an adult is very much a minority.  What charts like that of Beddoe do is hide the fact that the vast majority of his light category was probably only a shade lighter than mid brown while the vast majority of his dark was only a shade darker than mid Brown.  Its very misleading giving the impression of a  east and a dark west when in majority reality the difference is mid-dark brown in the west and mid-light brown in the east.  Hardly a massive difference.  I think there is a difference but that is about as much as it amounts to when it comes to hair.  However, eye colour does not follow and east west trend and light eyes seem to peak in both the north-east of England/east of Scotland where hair is lighter and in the usually darker haired but lighter eyed populations of Ireland and western Scotland.  It seems for some reason the prehistoric population of Ireland and northern Britain was much more light eyed than much of the southern half of England as well as Wales.  That is interesting although hard to explain (Roman empire??, more late prehistoric arrivals??).  

It seems to me that the older population was particularly light eyed but darker haired and the light eyes have remained high where this population still predominates (Ireland) or where the overlay was with other light eyed populations (north-east Britain).  
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #53 on: August 31, 2012, 11:22:10 AM »

rms2

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"Predominantly dark haired" is not the same thing as "not fair" or "swarthy". When I wrote that the Welsh are mostly very fair and British looking, that was not "simply not true". It is true. The Welsh are not a dark-skinned, swarthy people

I never said that the Welsh were swarthy or dark skinned. If you read an earlier post of mine I said that swarthy, dark skinned Welsh are not that common. My point is about hair colour and eye colour. You can have dark brown hair and eyes and still not be dark skinned.

Quote
My observation of northern Europeans in general, including the Germans and Dutch, is that they are dark haired.

Are you kidding me? Dutch and Germans are generally fairer than average Brits in my experience.

Quote
I recall from some of your earlier posts that you cited Beddoe to the effect that Wales had a higher percentage of brown eyed people than did England. Still, in Wales, brown was not the predominant eye color. As I recall it accounted for roughly one third of the population. Having a slightly higher frequency of brown eyes than England does not make Wales the swarthy anomaly of British isles nations.

According to Fleure 1958, whose survey was larger than Beddoe, brown eyes for Wales was about 46-48% which is not just slightly higher than England, but actually significantly higher than Eastern parts of England where brown eyes vary between about 10 and 30% according to Beddoe.

There are parts of Wales - Plynlimon Moorland, Bala Cleft, Mynydd Hiraethog and Teifiside where dark brown or black hair accounts for over 70% of the population.

I challenge you to find me a hair study anywhere in England, Holland, Germany, Denmark or Scandinavia that finds dark hair to be as high as it is in Wales?

Quote
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I detect a kind of anti-Celtic animus in the general tone of your posts that disturbs me. If I am wrong, instead of getting angry at me for thinking that, perhaps you should try not to create that impression.

That made me laugh. God knows where you got that impression from!

As it happens, I am 75% Welsh and proud. Cymru am byth!









Thing is you may have more dark hair among Brits than Germans but when Germans are dark they tend to be darker than Brits, the latter usually still having fair skin and often light eyes.  A lot of the dark haired isles people belong to the peculiarly North Atlantic type where it goes with light eyes and skin.  This is much more rare on the continent where you see far more people who are all-dark in terms of hair, eyes and skin tone, something that is so rare in the isles that it gets stories made up about it implying Spanish or Italian blood.  Its relatively rare to see dark isles folk who look truly like dark continentals due to the combination of fair, skin and eye colours and also due to facial features (the British, especially the Scots, and the Irish having much larger boned skulls than is usual on the Med).
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avalon
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« Reply #54 on: August 31, 2012, 12:04:13 PM »

The amazement over dark haired, dark eyed people in the Isles keeps cropping up, as I'm sure it has for centuries. As a guy who comes from an Irish family filled with dark haired, dark eyed people I find it amusing. I have black haired, black eyed Irish cousins in Wexford and black haired, black eyed cousins in Derry. My father was black haired, black eyed and my sister and I are dark haired, dark eyed (mine are a bit hazel). It happens, and I don't think there is any deep genetic riddle to be solved.

In High School, I sat in rooms with dark haired, dark eyed Irish and fair haired, blue eyed Italians. Growing up I was often told that my "dark" coloring MUST have come from my French-Canadian 25% side, when, in fact, I know of no French-Canadian relation with anything but blue eyes.

We are not freaks!  :) Nor, are we descendants of some unexplainable strain of Iberians or Italians. We are the luck of the draw in genetics, and we appear all over Ireland, all over Britain to varrying degrees.

And, again, I'll take Andrea Corr over any fair haired, blue eyed Irish gal!

I agree with you.

Some people really struggle to accept that some indigenous British and Irish people have notably dark brown or black hair. Ireland's two greatest ever sportsmen, Roy Keane and George Best are good examples.

I have met loads of Irish people in England over the years, expats, 2nd/3rd generation with gaelic surnames and so many of them fit that look, very dark hair, almost black and often blue eyes.

Because this doesn't fit with the myth of the red haired celt, people invent ridiculous explanations for these darker looks such as the Spanish Armada, Roman Soldiers, Gypsies, Italian immigrants, and on and on...

IMHO, very dark hair (I'm not talking medium brown) and sometimes brown eyes, are physical traits that have probably been in the Isles for a very long time.





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avalon
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« Reply #55 on: August 31, 2012, 12:12:46 PM »

Isn't there a hot spot in North Wales for a sub clade of Haplogroup E?


 The theory about Haplogroup E being Roman soldiers is probably nonsense.



Could you expand on that please Avalon ?

Read my earlier post.

Abergele, where the high Haplogroup E was found, is a town along the North Wales coast that has been a popular destination for many years for the working classes of Liverpool and Birmingham, some of whom have settled or retired to this area.

Therefore, the high E frequency may have arrived from England in modern times. If it can be shown that the Haplogroup E people had Welsh surnames and deep y-dna ancestry in Wales, then I could accept the Roman soldiers theory.

It's all nonsense. Haplogroup E in question is E-V13 which is somewhat common in southern Europe and the Balkans. At this point it may be that  these early Levantines were darker complexioned.We know this haplogroup was present in the west of Europe in the neolithic, and was likely part of the mix who became "Welsh". There is no need for a fantastical story, especially when E-V13 was found in neolithic Northern Spain 5000 BC, and we are proposing immigration from Iberia to Wales. Moreover, E-V13 is found everywhere in Europe, including England, Ireland, Norway, Sweden...etc but at low levels.

E-V13 could have been present in prehistoric North Wales and it may have survived to today in low levels but that is just one theory and it is not proven.
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avalon
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« Reply #56 on: August 31, 2012, 12:36:36 PM »

alantrowel,

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What charts like that of Beddoe do is hide the fact that the vast majority of his light category was probably only a shade lighter than mid brown while the vast majority of his dark was only a shade darker than mid Brown.  Its very misleading giving the impression of a  east and a dark west when in majority reality the difference is mid-dark brown in the west and mid-light brown in the east.  Hardly a massive difference.  I think there is a difference but that is about as much as it amounts to when it comes to hair.  However, eye colour does not follow and east west trend and light eyes seem to peak in both the north-east of England/east of Scotland where hair is lighter and in the usually darker haired but lighter eyed populations of Ireland and western Scotland.  It seems for some reason the prehistoric population of Ireland and northern Britain was much more light eyed than much of the southern half of England as well as Wales.  That is interesting although hard to explain (Roman empire??, more late prehistoric arrivals??).

We could argue all day along about different shades of hair colour. It really is down to an individual's perception of what is fair and what is dark.

Nevertheless, Beddoe did observe noticable differences bewtween different parts of Britain - Welsh and Cornish had darker hair and eyes whereas Northumberland, Yorkshire and Lincolnshire were muchlighter in hair and eye colour. You can't dispute this?

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Thing is you may have more dark hair among Brits than Germans but when Germans are dark they tend to be darker than Brits, the latter usually still having fair skin and often light eyes.

I disagree with this. If we accept that northern Germany, Denmark and Friesland are source populations for the Anglo-Saxons, etc, then in my experience these areas are much fairer haired than the Celtic West. I've never met a Dane or German who is as dark as Catherine Zeta Jones for instance .
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #57 on: August 31, 2012, 01:35:14 PM »

I've never met a Dane or German who is as dark as Catherine Zeta Jones for instance .

This may be anecdotal evidence, but I've run across a number of Danes and Germans who are swarthy and dark haired. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of pale Welsh with red hair and light eyes. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #58 on: August 31, 2012, 02:00:49 PM »

The amazement over dark haired, dark eyed people in the Isles keeps cropping up, as I'm sure it has for centuries. As a guy who comes from an Irish family filled with dark haired, dark eyed people I find it amusing. I have black haired, black eyed Irish cousins in Wexford and black haired, black eyed cousins in Derry. My father was black haired, black eyed and my sister and I are dark haired, dark eyed (mine are a bit hazel). It happens, and I don't think there is any deep genetic riddle to be solved.

In High School, I sat in rooms with dark haired, dark eyed Irish and fair haired, blue eyed Italians. Growing up I was often told that my "dark" coloring MUST have come from my French-Canadian 25% side, when, in fact, I know of no French-Canadian relation with anything but blue eyes.

We are not freaks!  :) Nor, are we descendants of some unexplainable strain of Iberians or Italians. We are the luck of the draw in genetics, and we appear all over Ireland, all over Britain to varrying degrees.

And, again, I'll take Andrea Corr over any fair haired, blue eyed Irish gal!

I agree with you.

Some people really struggle to accept that some indigenous British and Irish people have notably dark brown or black hair. Ireland's two greatest ever sportsmen, Roy Keane and George Best are good examples.

I have met loads of Irish people in England over the years, expats, 2nd/3rd generation with gaelic surnames and so many of them fit that look, very dark hair, almost black and often blue eyes.

Because this doesn't fit with the myth of the red haired celt, people invent ridiculous explanations for these darker looks such as the Spanish Armada, Roman Soldiers, Gypsies, Italian immigrants, and on and on...

IMHO, very dark hair (I'm not talking medium brown) and sometimes brown eyes, are physical traits that have probably been in the Isles for a very long time.







I agree with the last bit.  I find it interesting though that the light eyes division in the isles doesnt coincide with the Germanic-Celtic divide in any neat way.  A line from Chester to London marks a division between the lighter and darker eyed areas (although we should not exagerate this).  The light area includes highland Scotland and Ireland as well as the north of England.  What I find interesting about that is it indicates that before the Germanic invasions there was already an eye colour contrast within the British Isles.  In general the non-Germanic light eyed areas (basically highland Scotland and Ireland) does coincide with relatively isolated areas which were distant from the continent and also were outside the Roman Empire.   The dark hair/light eyed combination that is very common in Ireland and Scotland (and fairly common throughout Britain) must be early because that combination could not be brought about through the mixing of a very dark population with a superstrate of fair people (unless it was very dominant).  That would go against the science of inheritance.  
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avalon
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« Reply #59 on: August 31, 2012, 02:39:29 PM »

I've never met a Dane or German who is as dark as Catherine Zeta Jones for instance .

This may be anecdotal evidence, but I've run across a number of Danes and Germans who are swarthy and dark haired. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of pale Welsh with red hair and light eyes. 

True, personal anecdotes and observations only go so far. Which is why I have referred to actual studies of people in the areas we are talking about.

Beddoe (Races of Britain 1885) and Fleure and Davies (Physical Character among Welshmen 1958) both reach similar conclusions about the higher proportion of darker hair and eyes within the Welsh population, compared to the English population.
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avalon
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« Reply #60 on: August 31, 2012, 03:04:54 PM »

The amazement over dark haired, dark eyed people in the Isles keeps cropping up, as I'm sure it has for centuries. As a guy who comes from an Irish family filled with dark haired, dark eyed people I find it amusing. I have black haired, black eyed Irish cousins in Wexford and black haired, black eyed cousins in Derry. My father was black haired, black eyed and my sister and I are dark haired, dark eyed (mine are a bit hazel). It happens, and I don't think there is any deep genetic riddle to be solved.

In High School, I sat in rooms with dark haired, dark eyed Irish and fair haired, blue eyed Italians. Growing up I was often told that my "dark" coloring MUST have come from my French-Canadian 25% side, when, in fact, I know of no French-Canadian relation with anything but blue eyes.

We are not freaks!  :) Nor, are we descendants of some unexplainable strain of Iberians or Italians. We are the luck of the draw in genetics, and we appear all over Ireland, all over Britain to varrying degrees.

And, again, I'll take Andrea Corr over any fair haired, blue eyed Irish gal!

I agree with you.

Some people really struggle to accept that some indigenous British and Irish people have notably dark brown or black hair. Ireland's two greatest ever sportsmen, Roy Keane and George Best are good examples.

I have met loads of Irish people in England over the years, expats, 2nd/3rd generation with gaelic surnames and so many of them fit that look, very dark hair, almost black and often blue eyes.

Because this doesn't fit with the myth of the red haired celt, people invent ridiculous explanations for these darker looks such as the Spanish Armada, Roman Soldiers, Gypsies, Italian immigrants, and on and on...

IMHO, very dark hair (I'm not talking medium brown) and sometimes brown eyes, are physical traits that have probably been in the Isles for a very long time.







I agree with the last bit.  I find it interesting though that the light eyes division in the isles doesnt coincide with the Germanic-Celtic divide in any neat way.  A line from Chester to London marks a division between the lighter and darker eyed areas (although we should not exagerate this).  The light area includes highland Scotland and Ireland as well as the north of England.  What I find interesting about that is it indicates that before the Germanic invasions there was already an eye colour contrast within the British Isles.  In general the non-Germanic light eyed areas (basically highland Scotland and Ireland) does coincide with relatively isolated areas which were distant from the continent and also were outside the Roman Empire.   The dark hair/light eyed combination that is very common in Ireland and Scotland (and fairly common throughout Britain) must be early because that combination could not be brought about through the mixing of a very dark population with a superstrate of fair people (unless it was very dominant).  That would go against the science of inheritance.  

Yes, the eye colour distribution according to Beddoe is interesting. Looking at the figures again the lightest eyed areas were in northern England (Danelaw?) but southern and central England had higher proportions of brown eyes. Cornwall and Wales were obviously higher again.

Interestingly, both Beddoe and Fleure found that women were darker than men in hair and eye colour, though it wasn't a big difference.

I think that Fleure also believed that the dark hair/light eyes combination was also associated with Brittany and the Atlantic coast of France down to the Loire.






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dodelo
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« Reply #61 on: August 31, 2012, 03:53:37 PM »

Isn't there a hot spot in North Wales for a sub clade of Haplogroup E?


 The theory about Haplogroup E being Roman soldiers is probably nonsense.



Could you expand on that please Avalon ?

Read my earlier post.

Abergele, where the high Haplogroup E was found, is a town along the North Wales coast that has been a popular destination for many years for the working classes of Liverpool and Birmingham, some of whom have settled or retired to this area.

Therefore, the high E frequency may have arrived from England in modern times. If it can be shown that the Haplogroup E people had Welsh surnames and deep y-dna ancestry in Wales, then I could accept the Roman soldiers theory.

There is a clearly a problem with Abergele but that is why I ignored it .  The  Roman soldiers association with E has been mentioned in the past e.g. Stephen Bird ,  I thought you may have had some additional info .

I think people jumped on the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele for the simple reason that there was a Roman Fortlet in the area, but nobody considered, or perhaps even knew about the modern. 20th century history of the north Wales coastal towns such as Abergele, Rhyl, Prestatyn, etc.

There were Roman Forts in North Wales but I don't think there is much evidence of actual Roman settlement in North Wales.

So nothing to refute Bird's paper . Segontium overlooking the Menai straits  at Caernarfon was a garrison for over 300 years , the longest of all Welsh garrisons .

 
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #62 on: August 31, 2012, 04:57:12 PM »

I've never met a Dane or German who is as dark as Catherine Zeta Jones for instance .

This may be anecdotal evidence, but I've run across a number of Danes and Germans who are swarthy and dark haired. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of pale Welsh with red hair and light eyes. 

True, personal anecdotes and observations only go so far. Which is why I have referred to actual studies of people in the areas we are talking about.

Beddoe (Races of Britain 1885) and Fleure and Davies (Physical Character among Welshmen 1958) both reach similar conclusions about the higher proportion of darker hair and eyes within the Welsh population, compared to the English population.

I am still of the impression that Celtic fringe folk are fairer, especially when it comes to skin and sunburns. Maybe that's why we see more red hair in Ireland/Scotland - the combination with milky skin.
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« Reply #63 on: August 31, 2012, 09:22:27 PM »

@avalon

I would have never guessed you had any Welsh blood at all. It's surprising, given the tone of your posts.

No, I wasn't kidding about the Dutch and Germans. I haven't conducted population studies of them, but I know dark hair is common in both the Netherlands and Germany.

I think we are talking past one another. I'm not sure how to correct that. I don't much care for your posts, so I think I will largely ignore them.
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A.D.
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« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2012, 11:03:46 PM »

I've looked at these eye and hair colour maps , studies etc a lot. In fact its what got me into dna in the first place. Why is NW europe have more blue eyes and  hair than any where else. I'm of the opinion it gets very misleading. The term 'light eyes' means a mixture. True 'Green eyes' are surpossed to be the rarest and seem to be ever so slightly more common in Asia. So what we call green eyes are an admixture of elements. There is no such thing as blue colouring of the eyes this is down to the reflective  propeties, the Rayleigh effect, what makes the sky blue hence 'red-eye in photos and Purple/Violet eyes . As for Gray eyes scientists haven't even bothered they are assumed to be 'too close to blue' even though they contain yellow. It could be that Gray is a futher lightening of Brown. This would run- black, dark brown, hazel, pale hazel (yellowish) gray with yellow flecks through to an off white colour.
The highest percentage of light eyes is around the N and E Baltic this is due to the mixture of blue and gray.
   
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avalon
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« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2012, 02:08:50 AM »

Isn't there a hot spot in North Wales for a sub clade of Haplogroup E?


 The theory about Haplogroup E being Roman soldiers is probably nonsense.



Could you expand on that please Avalon ?

Read my earlier post.

Abergele, where the high Haplogroup E was found, is a town along the North Wales coast that has been a popular destination for many years for the working classes of Liverpool and Birmingham, some of whom have settled or retired to this area.

Therefore, the high E frequency may have arrived from England in modern times. If it can be shown that the Haplogroup E people had Welsh surnames and deep y-dna ancestry in Wales, then I could accept the Roman soldiers theory.

There is a clearly a problem with Abergele but that is why I ignored it .  The  Roman soldiers association with E has been mentioned in the past e.g. Stephen Bird ,  I thought you may have had some additional info .

I think people jumped on the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele for the simple reason that there was a Roman Fortlet in the area, but nobody considered, or perhaps even knew about the modern. 20th century history of the north Wales coastal towns such as Abergele, Rhyl, Prestatyn, etc.

There were Roman Forts in North Wales but I don't think there is much evidence of actual Roman settlement in North Wales.

So nothing to refute Bird's paper . Segontium overlooking the Menai straits  at Caernarfon was a garrison for over 300 years , the longest of all Welsh garrisons .

 

Do you know anything about the geography of Wales? Caernarfon is not Abergele.

Is there any evidence that Romans actually settled in this area?
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avalon
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« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2012, 02:32:32 AM »

rms2,

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I would have never guessed you had any Welsh blood at all. It's surprising, given the tone of your posts.

Can you direct me to any of my posts that were anti-Welsh or anti-Celtic? I honestly don't see why you think this. If anything, because of my Welsh blood, I am actually biased towards the Celtic countries.

Quote
I think we are talking past one another. I'm not sure how to correct that. I don't much care for your posts, so I think I will largely ignore them.

Frankly, this is an immature response from somebody who realises they have lost the argument.

I have read a lot of your posts on this forum and on most topics you present good arguments and are knowledgeable. However, on this topic you are blind to the evidence.

I refer of course to Beddoe, Fleure, James and Davies, who I repeat, are the only people to have systematically recorded the hair and eye colour of people living in Wales.
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avalon
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« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2012, 02:42:04 AM »

I've never met a Dane or German who is as dark as Catherine Zeta Jones for instance .

This may be anecdotal evidence, but I've run across a number of Danes and Germans who are swarthy and dark haired. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of pale Welsh with red hair and light eyes. 

True, personal anecdotes and observations only go so far. Which is why I have referred to actual studies of people in the areas we are talking about.

Beddoe (Races of Britain 1885) and Fleure and Davies (Physical Character among Welshmen 1958) both reach similar conclusions about the higher proportion of darker hair and eyes within the Welsh population, compared to the English population.

I am still of the impression that Celtic fringe folk are fairer, especially when it comes to skin and sunburns. Maybe that's why we see more red hair in Ireland/Scotland - the combination with milky skin.


I agree about skin tone. Brits and Irish are on the whole lighter skinned.

My point is about the prevelance of very dark, sometimes black hair present throughout the Isles, particularly in the Celtic parts. Also, the notably high proportion of brown eyes in Wales.

I have yet to see any evidence that the Dutch, Scandinavians or Germans have as much dark hair or brown eyes (in the case of Wales)?
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« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2012, 04:47:14 AM »

Isn't there a hot spot in North Wales for a sub clade of Haplogroup E?


 The theory about Haplogroup E being Roman soldiers is probably nonsense.



Could you expand on that please Avalon ?

Read my earlier post.

Abergele, where the high Haplogroup E was found, is a town along the North Wales coast that has been a popular destination for many years for the working classes of Liverpool and Birmingham, some of whom have settled or retired to this area.

Therefore, the high E frequency may have arrived from England in modern times. If it can be shown that the Haplogroup E people had Welsh surnames and deep y-dna ancestry in Wales, then I could accept the Roman soldiers theory.

There is a clearly a problem with Abergele but that is why I ignored it .  The  Roman soldiers association with E has been mentioned in the past e.g. Stephen Bird ,  I thought you may have had some additional info .

I think people jumped on the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele for the simple reason that there was a Roman Fortlet in the area, but nobody considered, or perhaps even knew about the modern. 20th century history of the north Wales coastal towns such as Abergele, Rhyl, Prestatyn, etc.

There were Roman Forts in North Wales but I don't think there is much evidence of actual Roman settlement in North Wales.

So nothing to refute Bird's paper . Segontium overlooking the Menai straits  at Caernarfon was a garrison for over 300 years , the longest of all Welsh garrisons .

 

Do you know anything about the geography of Wales? Caernarfon is not Abergele.

Is there any evidence that Romans actually settled in this area?
Yes , I am perfectly aware of the geography of NW Wales . Did I conflate Abergele with Caernarfon?  If you had read my post you would have noted that I said I was ignoring Abergele . Fwiw they are only a maximum of three days march apart .

Do you believe that the occupation of Sergontium for over 300 years was not considered by the locals as  some kind of settlement ?
My original  question was looking for any evidence of a refutation of Bird , it appears there isn't .
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avalon
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« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2012, 06:45:32 AM »

dodelo

Quote
Do you believe that the occupation of Sergontium for over 300 years was not considered by the locals as  some kind of settlement ?

Not necessarily. Roman forts were occupied by soldiers, who came and went during the period. Indeed, from 150AD onwards the garrison was reduced. There is little evidence of Roman towns in North Wales.

By way of comparison, the Normans built castles all over North Wales - Caernarfon, Harlech, Conwy, Rhuddlan and yet nobody has ever suggested that there was much Anglo-Norman settlement in these areas?

I'm not ruling out the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele, I'm just saying there are other possibilities.
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OConnor
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« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2012, 07:01:16 AM »




I wonder what kind of impact (small scale obviously) trading and fishing had in the last 500 or 600 years. I read an nteresting bookk recently called Cod, about Cod fishings role throughout history. When you consider Portuguese and Basques were fishing the North Atlantic heavily even pre Columbus' voyage there must have been some interaction with coastal communities.

There is some recent archaeological finds in the Azores which is in the middle of the Atlantic. Well before Columbus. I believe the findings, and future study there will be very interesting, and maybe shed some more light on maritime travel.
(I don't know if, or how, or when the Basque fit into this picture.)
 
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"The president of the Portuguese Association of Archeological Research (APIA), Nuno Ribeiro, revealed Monday having found rock art on the island of Terceira, supporting his believe that human occupation of the Azores predates the arrival of the Portuguese by many thousands of years"

"He has claimed to have found in the Azores a significant number of ancient ruins from the fourth century BC. Based on these findings, he believes, it is possible to establish that human presence in the Azores precedes the Portuguese occupation of the islands in the fifteen century."

http://portuguese-american-journal.com/archeology-prehistoric-rock-art-found-in-caves-on-terceira-island-azores/
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Heber
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« Reply #71 on: September 01, 2012, 08:01:18 AM »

Regarding the Azores and in a more recent timeframe, there is an ancient Azores  island of St Brendon charted on many Medieval maps supposedly founded by St Brendan the Irish Monk. Another example is Hy Brazil west of Ireland.

"This except from Ortelius’ 1570 Theatrum Orbis Terrarum displayed quite a large number of phantom lands in the North Atlantic, such as Frisland (Friesland), Santana, St. Brendan's Island (S. Bradain), Estotiland, Green Island (Y Verdo), and Vlaenderen.

It’s hard to say exactly how the myth of the island of Hy-Brasil began, or if it merely represented a piece of land that was poorly charted and later rediscovered and renamed. Some postulate that the island could simply be Porcupine Bank (a shoal 200 km west of Ireland) exposed at extreme low tide; this is where an 1830 chart had ‘Brazil Rock’ located. Others link it to islands in the Azores, or to early knowledge of what would become known as North America (supposedly ‘Brasil’ was one of the lands visited by John Cabot). Supposedly it could be seen in the distance from the Aran Islands, and occasional reports of people claiming to have visited the island persisted right until 1865 (as ‘Brazil Rock’)."

http://www.sbimailservice.com/brendan.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan

The Phoenicians and Celts of Tartessos are reported to have had exchanges with the Azores.

http://phoenicia.org/canaancornwall.html
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 08:20:14 AM by Heber » Logged

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dodelo
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« Reply #72 on: September 01, 2012, 08:24:29 AM »

dodelo

Quote
Do you believe that the occupation of Sergontium for over 300 years was not considered by the locals as  some kind of settlement ?

Not necessarily. Roman forts were occupied by soldiers, who came and went during the period. Indeed, from 150AD onwards the garrison was reduced. There is little evidence of Roman towns in North Wales.



I'm not ruling out the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele, I'm just saying there are other possibilities.

The “probably nonsense “ which led to my interest of some sort of refutation  and hence the question has been amended to  “there are other possibilities “ .

Garrisons do have an impact on local genetics whether those garrisoned are short stay or not .We also have evidence from two days march away at Chester (where there is another cluster of E3b1a2) of actual marriages between Roman soldiers and local women . AH.A. Hogg secretary of RCAHM in Wales considered that over 100 homesteads in NW Wales  were Roman .
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dodelo
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« Reply #73 on: September 01, 2012, 10:00:57 AM »




I wonder what kind of impact (small scale obviously) trading and fishing had in the last 500 or 600 years. I read an nteresting bookk recently called Cod, about Cod fishings role throughout history. When you consider Portuguese and Basques were fishing the North Atlantic heavily even pre Columbus' voyage there must have been some interaction with coastal communities.

There is some recent archaeological finds in the Azores which is in the middle of the Atlantic. Well before Columbus. I believe the findings, and future study there will be very interesting, and maybe shed some more light on maritime travel.
(I don't know if, or how, or when the Basque fit into this picture.)
 
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa  

"The president of the Portuguese Association of Archeological Research (APIA), Nuno Ribeiro, revealed Monday having found rock art on the island of Terceira, supporting his believe that human occupation of the Azores predates the arrival of the Portuguese by many thousands of years"

"He has claimed to have found in the Azores a significant number of ancient ruins from the fourth century BC. Based on these findings, he believes, it is possible to establish that human presence in the Azores precedes the Portuguese occupation of the islands in the fifteen century."

http://portuguese-american-journal.com/archeology-prehistoric-rock-art-found-in-caves-on-terceira-island-azores/

It would have been good to have seen some pics of the rock art  . If in a cave then possibly pictographs . The Azores are not the Canaries but  it is worth bearing in mind that the rock art there which is open air and engraved and has some similarities with European examples  is probably much later .
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 10:01:42 AM by dodelo » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #74 on: September 01, 2012, 02:48:39 PM »

rms2,

Quote
I would have never guessed you had any Welsh blood at all. It's surprising, given the tone of your posts.

Can you direct me to any of my posts that were anti-Welsh or anti-Celtic? I honestly don't see why you think this. If anything, because of my Welsh blood, I am actually biased towards the Celtic countries.

Quote
I think we are talking past one another. I'm not sure how to correct that. I don't much care for your posts, so I think I will largely ignore them.

Frankly, this is an immature response from somebody who realises they have lost the argument.

I have read a lot of your posts on this forum and on most topics you present good arguments and are knowledgeable. However, on this topic you are blind to the evidence.

I refer of course to Beddoe, Fleure, James and Davies, who I repeat, are the only people to have systematically recorded the hair and eye colour of people living in Wales.

This will probably be my last post in response to one of yours.

You continue to refer to old, non-genetic studies to which none of the rest of us has access, unless we find and purchase the books that contain them. That's fine; I sometimes refer to books that other people here do not have. But there can be no "argument" when one constantly refers to sources those who disagree with him do not have and uses them as if they were the absolute last word on the subject.

What I said about the tone of your posts and the impression you create began in that old "People of the British Isles" thread, and I am not the only one who got the impression I described.

I also get the impression that we are talking about different things. At this point, I don't really care enough to engage in a struggle to sort that out.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 02:50:03 PM by rms2 » Logged

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