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rms2
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« Reply #75 on: September 01, 2012, 02:54:24 PM »

I posted the following elsewhere before, but it is relevant here, since it makes mention of the frequency of a couple of the variants of the MCR1 gene responsible for red hair and their frequency in Wales, which is quite high.

Here is something interesting on red hair in the British Isles.

Robin McKie cites actual genetic research by the People of the British Isles Project showing the frequency of the two variants of the MCR1 gene that are responsible for red hair.

Quote from: Robin McKie

Enter the scientists of the People of the British Isles project: thanks to their efforts, this most distinctive characteristic is now opening up its mysteries for the first time. Testing their white cell samples for two of the half-dozen red-hair versions of the MC1R gene, they were able to show their frequency in each area of the British Isles. The results were intriguing.

Where one is the maximum value, they got figures of 0.16 and 0.23 for the frequencies of red-hair genes in Cornwall and Devon. The frequency in Oxfordshire was 0.07; in Sussex and Kent 0.13; in northeast England 0.11; in Lincolnshire 0.07; and in Cumbria nil. In Wales the figure was 0.21, and in Orkney a high 0.26. But the highest was in Ireland. Using data from other research studies, the team got a figure for Ireland of 0.31, confirmation of the stereotypical image of the red-haired Irishman.

The results are remarkable, as Sir Walter Bodmer, the Oxford geneticist leading the project, acknowledges: “I was amazed at them. I didn’t expect to see something like this.”

The research gives us, for the first time, an insight into the startling numbers of native people who have been described as having red hair in ancient times.


To sum up, these are the frequencies of the two red-hair variants of the MCR1 gene studied by Bodmer and the People of the British Isles Project.

Cornwall: 16%
Devon: 23%
Wales: 21%
Orkney: 26%
Oxfordshire: 7%
Sussex and Kent: 13%
North East England: 11%
Lincolnshire: 7%
Cumbria: 0%
Ireland: 31%
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avalon
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« Reply #76 on: September 02, 2012, 01:04:21 PM »

rms2,

I know you'd love to have the last word on this subject, but ignoring me really is an admission of defeat. If you don't care about this topic then why do you keep posting?

Quote
You continue to refer to old, non-genetic studies to which none of the rest of us has access, unless we find and purchase the books that contain them

Just because these studies are old that doesn't make them wrong. And alantrowel has referred to Beddoe's figures in his posts so clearly he has access.

Also, Bryan Sykes covers this topic quite a bit in his book "Blood of the Isles."

Quote
studies to which none of the rest of us has access

As a matter of fact you can access some of the information through Carleton Coon "Races of Europe" which is online. As I have said before, Coon cited the work of Beddoe and Fleure in his summary of GB, although when Coon published in 1939 he didn't have access to Fleure and Davies complete work (including extensive surveys of Central and Northern Wales), published in 1958.

This is what he said about hair colour:

Quote
Both the English and the  Scotch have as much red hair as the Irish, while the Welsh have more; both the Scotch and the Irish have somewhat higher increments of black hair than England with Wales; and if Wales is studied separately, England emerges as the lightest haired of the four major divisions of the British Isles, and Wales as the darkest

Quote
In Wales, 10 per cent of the total have black hair, and only 8 per cent are fair in the English sense. Dark brown predominates over medium brown, while red, which averages 5 per cent, runs as high as 9 per cent in small localities. Beddoe finds as much as 86 to 89 per cent of black and dark brown hair in such places as Newquay and Denbighshire Upland. On the whole, Wales, in accordance with its mountainous character and its general preservation of ancient cultural traits, is a region of strong local variability, which manifests itself particularly in pigmentation.

On eye colour:

Quote
Wales, however, is notably darker eyed. Out of Beddoe's series of 3000, 34 per cent are called brown eyed, 15 per cent mixed, and 51 per cent light. Although the light-eyed element is still the more numerous in the principality as a whole, it is possible to distinguish typically dark-eyed districts. Fleure found between 60 per cent and 70 per cent of "dark" eyes in Landyssul, Newquay, and Denbighshire Upland, and Beddoe found the same among the Abergavenny country people, among the townsmen of Brecon, and in Merthyr and Taffvale. These are all isolated regions, and the antiquity of dark eye color in Wales is evident.

My only point on this topic is that dark hair and dark eyes are more prevelant in Wales than in England. In some parts of Wales, particularly the rural, Welsh speaking areas, the proportion of dark brown/black hair and brown eyes was significantly higher than in England.

I have never said that the Welsh were a swarthy, dark skinned minority in Britain, that is not my position.

Quote
What I said about the tone of your posts and the impression you create began in that old "People of the British Isles" thread, and I am not the only one who got the impression I described.

And yet, you have still to highlight anything I have specifically said that was anti-Welsh or anti-Celtic?

It's absurd. I have deep ancestry (through 3 grandparents) in Wales going back centuries, with possible descent from a 10th century Welsh prince.

Although I live in England, through relatives I have spent a lot of time in North Wales. I have a strong pride in the area and know a lot about its people, their culture and the history of this beautiful corner of the world.












« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 01:55:13 PM by avalon » Logged
avalon
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« Reply #77 on: September 02, 2012, 01:47:14 PM »

I posted the following elsewhere before, but it is relevant here, since it makes mention of the frequency of a couple of the variants of the MCR1 gene responsible for red hair and their frequency in Wales, which is quite high.

Here is something interesting on red hair in the British Isles.

Robin McKie cites actual genetic research by the People of the British Isles Project showing the frequency of the two variants of the MCR1 gene that are responsible for red hair.

Quote from: Robin McKie

Enter the scientists of the People of the British Isles project: thanks to their efforts, this most distinctive characteristic is now opening up its mysteries for the first time. Testing their white cell samples for two of the half-dozen red-hair versions of the MC1R gene, they were able to show their frequency in each area of the British Isles. The results were intriguing.

Where one is the maximum value, they got figures of 0.16 and 0.23 for the frequencies of red-hair genes in Cornwall and Devon. The frequency in Oxfordshire was 0.07; in Sussex and Kent 0.13; in northeast England 0.11; in Lincolnshire 0.07; and in Cumbria nil. In Wales the figure was 0.21, and in Orkney a high 0.26. But the highest was in Ireland. Using data from other research studies, the team got a figure for Ireland of 0.31, confirmation of the stereotypical image of the red-haired Irishman.

The results are remarkable, as Sir Walter Bodmer, the Oxford geneticist leading the project, acknowledges: “I was amazed at them. I didn’t expect to see something like this.”

The research gives us, for the first time, an insight into the startling numbers of native people who have been described as having red hair in ancient times.


To sum up, these are the frequencies of the two red-hair variants of the MCR1 gene studied by Bodmer and the People of the British Isles Project.

Cornwall: 16%
Devon: 23%
Wales: 21%
Orkney: 26%
Oxfordshire: 7%
Sussex and Kent: 13%
North East England: 11%
Lincolnshire: 7%
Cumbria: 0%
Ireland: 31%


Cumbria 0%??? So nobody in Cumbria carries this gene for red hair? Anybody who has actually been to Cumbria would question this!

John Beddoe did observe relatively high levels of red hair in South Wales. But as I have said before, post-Industrial South East Wales is not like the rest of Wales. Having said that Fleure and Davies 1958 did find the following red hair percentages for Wales:

South Pembrokeshire 12.6%
Anglesey 7%
Cardiganshire 6.7%
Plynlumon and Dyfi basin 6.3%
South East Carmarthenshire 8.3%
Bala Cleft 3%
Gower 5%
Ardudwy 4.4%
Mynydd Hiraethog 6.2%
Arfon 3.9%
Llyn 4.4%

It does vary, but on the whole, apart from Anglesey, North Wales has less red hair than South Wales.



« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 02:00:34 PM by avalon » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #78 on: September 02, 2012, 02:12:03 PM »

I recall somewhere hearing a study that the survival of Gaelic languages has a correlation with both an elevation of dark and red hair.  In my experience red hair seems to rise in areas where dark hair is also common.  I think red hair was a minority element of the dark haired/fair skinned/light eyed ancient population element.  While I think it pre-dates the division of Celts and Germans etc I think red hair clearly had a peak among the isles pre-Roman populations. However, I also believe it additionally had survived in parts of the North Sea fringe that became part of the Germanic world (it seems common in Holland from personal experience).  So, it seems to be a hyper-peripheral recessive thing that survived from extremely remote times all round the sea fringes of northern Europe (as well as other areas). 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #79 on: September 02, 2012, 02:20:16 PM »

rms2,

I know you'd love to have the last word on this subject, but ignoring me really is an admission of defeat. If you don't care about this topic then why do you keep posting?

Quote
You continue to refer to old, non-genetic studies to which none of the rest of us has access, unless we find and purchase the books that contain them

Just because these studies are old that doesn't make them wrong. And alantrowel has referred to Beddoe's figures in his posts so clearly he has access.

Also, Bryan Sykes covers this topic quite a bit in his book "Blood of the Isles."

Quote
studies to which none of the rest of us has access

As a matter of fact you can access some of the information through Carleton Coon "Races of Europe" which is online. As I have said before, Coon cited the work of Beddoe and Fleure in his summary of GB, although when Coon published in 1939 he didn't have access to Fleure and Davies complete work (including extensive surveys of Central and Northern Wales), published in 1958.

This is what he said about hair colour:

Quote
Both the English and the  Scotch have as much red hair as the Irish, while the Welsh have more; both the Scotch and the Irish have somewhat higher increments of black hair than England with Wales; and if Wales is studied separately, England emerges as the lightest haired of the four major divisions of the British Isles, and Wales as the darkest

Quote
In Wales, 10 per cent of the total have black hair, and only 8 per cent are fair in the English sense. Dark brown predominates over medium brown, while red, which averages 5 per cent, runs as high as 9 per cent in small localities. Beddoe finds as much as 86 to 89 per cent of black and dark brown hair in such places as Newquay and Denbighshire Upland. On the whole, Wales, in accordance with its mountainous character and its general preservation of ancient cultural traits, is a region of strong local variability, which manifests itself particularly in pigmentation.

On eye colour:

Quote
Wales, however, is notably darker eyed. Out of Beddoe's series of 3000, 34 per cent are called brown eyed, 15 per cent mixed, and 51 per cent light. Although the light-eyed element is still the more numerous in the principality as a whole, it is possible to distinguish typically dark-eyed districts. Fleure found between 60 per cent and 70 per cent of "dark" eyes in Landyssul, Newquay, and Denbighshire Upland, and Beddoe found the same among the Abergavenny country people, among the townsmen of Brecon, and in Merthyr and Taffvale. These are all isolated regions, and the antiquity of dark eye color in Wales is evident.

My only point on this topic is that dark hair and dark eyes are more prevelant in Wales than in England. In some parts of Wales, particularly the rural, Welsh speaking areas, the proportion of dark brown/black hair and brown eyes was significantly higher than in England.

I have never said that the Welsh were a swarthy, dark skinned minority in Britain, that is not my position.

Quote
What I said about the tone of your posts and the impression you create began in that old "People of the British Isles" thread, and I am not the only one who got the impression I described.

And yet, you have still to highlight anything I have specifically said that was anti-Welsh or anti-Celtic?

It's absurd. I have deep ancestry (through 3 grandparents) in Wales going back centuries, with possible descent from a 10th century Welsh prince.

Although I live in England, through relatives I have spent a lot of time in North Wales. I have a strong pride in the area and know a lot about its people, their culture and the history of this beautiful corner of the world.














I dont think I would argue that the Welsh do have an elevation of darker eyes and in general darker pigmentation (although it is just a swing in percentage rather than anything too spectacular).  However, I think the contrasting high proportion of blue eyes in Scotland and Ireland (the highest outside the Baltic) does suggest that there was a very early element that was dominantly blue eyed.  A dominance of blue eyes cannot come about by additional overlay of blue eyed elements onto a predominantly dark eyed population.  That goes against the laws of genetic inheritance.  So certainly among the Scots and Irish, blue eyes must have been there early.  Purely anecdotally I have noticed there is a much larger dark eyed element among the Welsh than the Irish and Scots.  However, my feeling is that the Irish and Scots light eyed, very fair skinned group is very old in those areas, perhaps the oldest element. 
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« Reply #80 on: September 02, 2012, 08:56:28 PM »

Alan thats what bugs me the regressive blue eyes would have to massivly out number brown eyes to have a noticeable effect. Especially as blue is estimated to be 10,000-6,000 years old. With the Baltic instead of blue over brown you have blue over gray also regsesive = shades of blue/gray. By the way by gray I don't mean a light blue shade but anything up to an almost off-white colour. Incidently around the East Baltic to Siberia is a bit of a hot area for the realy rare eye colours e.g yellow or 'wolf eyes' and amber eyes. If we take the variance=age idea what does that give us.
This is a long way from Wales so maybe they missed out on something.
I did notice on one of the maps that NE Iberia and Brittany have alot of tin Cornwall and Ireland have copper Ireland having gold too. I belive the used to be gold in Wales aswell. The severn estary has long been linked with maritime transport, stonehenge etc .
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« Reply #81 on: September 03, 2012, 02:52:14 AM »

dodelo

Quote
Do you believe that the occupation of Sergontium for over 300 years was not considered by the locals as  some kind of settlement ?

Not necessarily. Roman forts were occupied by soldiers, who came and went during the period. Indeed, from 150AD onwards the garrison was reduced. There is little evidence of Roman towns in North Wales.



I'm not ruling out the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele, I'm just saying there are other possibilities.

The “probably nonsense “ which led to my interest of some sort of refutation  and hence the question has been amended to  “there are other possibilities “ .

Garrisons do have an impact on local genetics whether those garrisoned are short stay or not .We also have evidence from two days march away at Chester (where there is another cluster of E3b1a2) of actual marriages between Roman soldiers and local women . AH.A. Hogg secretary of RCAHM in Wales considered that over 100 homesteads in NW Wales  were Roman .

Ok. I was wrong to say "probably nonsense." I must try to be less blunt and confrontational in my posts.

The key to the Abergele question is whether or not the Hap E people had Welsh surnames.

Also, I am no expert on the Roman period but my understanding is that the Romans had a greater impact  on lowland England, in terms of towns, villas and settlement, than they did in the remoter parts of Wales and Northern England.

in his book "Britain AD" Francis Pryor has a map of Roman villas that closely matches Anglo-Saxon cemetaries, in that Wales and Cornwall are virtually untouched.

I would guess that Roman genetic input was greater in England than in the Celtic West.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 02:58:36 AM by avalon » Logged
avalon
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« Reply #82 on: September 03, 2012, 03:58:50 AM »

I agree with what you say about red hair. Ginger hair and pale skin is a very Isles based trait. I have met Dutch and Belgian red heads but it is more of a golden red and they're not as pale skinned as Brits.

On hair colour in general, my view is that dark brown, sometimes black hair is more common in Ireland and Western Britain than it is in Eastern Britain. It is worth noting that darker hair is particularly high in remote, Welsh speaking areas. Cornwall was found to have exceptionally high levels of black hair but this was observed 140 years ago so the modern population may not look the same.

The difference in England is that medium brown predominates and that lighter hair is associated with areas settled by Scandinavians and Germanics.

My perception is that the people of the Northern European coast and Scandinavia are generally lighter haired than those on Europe's Atlantic coast. If blond hair and blue eyes arose in the Baltic, then these geographic traits make sense.

I wonder if it's possible that dark haired, dark eyed Neolithic Britons were later massively overwhelmed by people from the east who had lighter eye colouring? I realise these are sweeping generalisations.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 04:03:49 AM by avalon » Logged
dodelo
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« Reply #83 on: September 03, 2012, 07:02:29 AM »

dodelo

Quote
Do you believe that the occupation of Sergontium for over 300 years was not considered by the locals as  some kind of settlement ?

Not necessarily. Roman forts were occupied by soldiers, who came and went during the period. Indeed, from 150AD onwards the garrison was reduced. There is little evidence of Roman towns in North Wales.



I'm not ruling out the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele, I'm just saying there are other possibilities.

The “probably nonsense “ which led to my interest of some sort of refutation  and hence the question has been amended to  “there are other possibilities “ .

Garrisons do have an impact on local genetics whether those garrisoned are short stay or not .We also have evidence from two days march away at Chester (where there is another cluster of E3b1a2) of actual marriages between Roman soldiers and local women . AH.A. Hogg secretary of RCAHM in Wales considered that over 100 homesteads in NW Wales  were Roman .

Ok. I was wrong to say "probably nonsense." I must try to be less blunt and confrontational in my posts.

The key to the Abergele question is whether or not the Hap E people had Welsh surnames.

Also, I am no expert on the Roman period but my understanding is that the Romans had a greater impact  on lowland England, in terms of towns, villas and settlement, than they did in the remoter parts of Wales and Northern England.

in his book "Britain AD" Francis Pryor has a map of Roman villas that closely matches Anglo-Saxon cemetaries, in that Wales and Cornwall are virtually untouched.

I would guess that Roman genetic input was greater in England than in the Celtic West.
Considering my first post here , which included a please , was met with an unnecessary  “Read my earlier post “ when the query was asking for an expansion from that post  ,my third post was met with a “ do you know anything about the geography of Wales? “ which  was totally unjustified on the basis of the question and both retorts were wrong in their assumption . Yes ,you're right , you should think about the quality of responses .

 I had made it clear I was ignoring Abergele and asked if you could refute the findings of the Stephen Bird paper ,  it is clear that you hadn't read it .
  Of course the Romans had greater impacts elsewhere that doesn't mean they didn't have  an impact in NW Wales .
Pryor's  “Britain AD “ is not the place to base any conclusions on that impact .
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« Reply #84 on: September 03, 2012, 08:46:54 AM »

dodelo

Quote
Do you believe that the occupation of Sergontium for over 300 years was not considered by the locals as  some kind of settlement ?

Not necessarily. Roman forts were occupied by soldiers, who came and went during the period. Indeed, from 150AD onwards the garrison was reduced. There is little evidence of Roman towns in North Wales.



I'm not ruling out the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele, I'm just saying there are other possibilities.

The “probably nonsense “ which led to my interest of some sort of refutation  and hence the question has been amended to  “there are other possibilities “ .

Garrisons do have an impact on local genetics whether those garrisoned are short stay or not .We also have evidence from two days march away at Chester (where there is another cluster of E3b1a2) of actual marriages between Roman soldiers and local women . AH.A. Hogg secretary of RCAHM in Wales considered that over 100 homesteads in NW Wales  were Roman .

Ok. I was wrong to say "probably nonsense." I must try to be less blunt and confrontational in my posts.

The key to the Abergele question is whether or not the Hap E people had Welsh surnames.

Also, I am no expert on the Roman period but my understanding is that the Romans had a greater impact  on lowland England, in terms of towns, villas and settlement, than they did in the remoter parts of Wales and Northern England.

in his book "Britain AD" Francis Pryor has a map of Roman villas that closely matches Anglo-Saxon cemetaries, in that Wales and Cornwall are virtually untouched.

I would guess that Roman genetic input was greater in England than in the Celtic West.
Considering my first post here , which included a please , was met with an unnecessary  “Read my earlier post “ when the query was asking for an expansion from that post  ,my third post was met with a “ do you know anything about the geography of Wales? “ which  was totally unjustified on the basis of the question and both retorts were wrong in their assumption . Yes ,you're right , you should think about the quality of responses .

 I had made it clear I was ignoring Abergele and asked if you could refute the findings of the Stephen Bird paper ,  it is clear that you hadn't read it .
  Of course the Romans had greater impacts elsewhere that doesn't mean they didn't have  an impact in NW Wales .
Pryor's  “Britain AD “ is not the place to base any conclusions on that impact .


Listen, when I'm wrong I admit it. I shall be more polite to you in the future.

As for E3b, I shall keep an open mind. I would only add that 18 male samples for Abergele is a very small sample from which to draw conclusions about North Wales.
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dodelo
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« Reply #85 on: September 03, 2012, 09:38:48 AM »

dodelo

Quote
Do you believe that the occupation of Sergontium for over 300 years was not considered by the locals as  some kind of settlement ?

Not necessarily. Roman forts were occupied by soldiers, who came and went during the period. Indeed, from 150AD onwards the garrison was reduced. There is little evidence of Roman towns in North Wales.



I'm not ruling out the Roman soldiers theory for Abergele, I'm just saying there are other possibilities.

The “probably nonsense “ which led to my interest of some sort of refutation  and hence the question has been amended to  “there are other possibilities “ .

Garrisons do have an impact on local genetics whether those garrisoned are short stay or not .We also have evidence from two days march away at Chester (where there is another cluster of E3b1a2) of actual marriages between Roman soldiers and local women . AH.A. Hogg secretary of RCAHM in Wales considered that over 100 homesteads in NW Wales  were Roman .

Ok. I was wrong to say "probably nonsense." I must try to be less blunt and confrontational in my posts.

The key to the Abergele question is whether or not the Hap E people had Welsh surnames.

Also, I am no expert on the Roman period but my understanding is that the Romans had a greater impact  on lowland England, in terms of towns, villas and settlement, than they did in the remoter parts of Wales and Northern England.

in his book "Britain AD" Francis Pryor has a map of Roman villas that closely matches Anglo-Saxon cemetaries, in that Wales and Cornwall are virtually untouched.

I would guess that Roman genetic input was greater in England than in the Celtic West.
Considering my first post here , which included a please , was met with an unnecessary  “Read my earlier post “ when the query was asking for an expansion from that post  ,my third post was met with a “ do you know anything about the geography of Wales? “ which  was totally unjustified on the basis of the question and both retorts were wrong in their assumption . Yes ,you're right , you should think about the quality of responses .

 I had made it clear I was ignoring Abergele and asked if you could refute the findings of the Stephen Bird paper ,  it is clear that you hadn't read it .
  Of course the Romans had greater impacts elsewhere that doesn't mean they didn't have  an impact in NW Wales .
Pryor's  “Britain AD “ is not the place to base any conclusions on that impact .


Listen, when I'm wrong I admit it. I shall be more polite to you in the future.

As for E3b, I shall keep an open mind. I would only add that 18 male samples for Abergele is a very small sample from which to draw conclusions about North Wales.

Listen , apart from a geographic reference the only time I mentioned  Abergele in reltion to the very small sample was to clarify I was ignoring it .
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Isidro
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« Reply #86 on: September 03, 2012, 10:37:54 AM »

Jean M
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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2012, 04:39:20 AM »    Reply with quote
The Welsh tribes are included in my Celtic tribes of the British Isles. Just click on Wales and the West.

The only person to suppose a link with Iberia was the Roman Tacitus, who just guessed that " the swarthy faces of the Silures, their generally curly hair and the fact that Hispania lies opposite, all lead one to believe that Iberians crossed in  ancient times and occupied the land." (Agricola, 11.)

This Tacitus quote has become the panacea of what Iberians looked like, actually it is such a strong piece of evidence that even today, a devote Spaniard trying to restore (on her own)a 19th Century painting of Jesus did so based on her own perception, indeed was she influenced by Tacitus?.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19349921


« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 10:50:42 AM by Isidro » Logged

Haplogroups
Y-DNA    R1b1a2a1a1b5    Shorthand    R-L176.2 mtDNA    HV  23andMe: HV0

M269+ P312+ Z196+ L176.2+ Z198+

Z262- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- L165-

Jean M
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« Reply #87 on: September 03, 2012, 03:07:28 PM »


Redheads gather in Holland for festival
An annual festival of redheads has been taking place in Breda, Holland.

Around 1,400 redheads from 52 countries took part in the festivities which included activities such as fashion shows and art exhibitions devoted to the colour red.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19461177
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« Reply #88 on: September 03, 2012, 03:14:49 PM »

This Tacitus quote has become the panacea of what Iberians looked like,

I suspect that you men something other than "panacea", Isidro. Maybe stereotype?

Of course all Iberians are not alike, any more than the Welsh are. My Portuguese ex-husband was as dark as me (in the days before our hair went grey), but we both have sisters with lighter hair and eyes. (Not that I am Welsh.) It is the luck of the genetic draw. https://sites.google.com/site/jeanmanco/decades
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 03:17:07 PM by Jean M » Logged
avalon
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« Reply #89 on: September 04, 2012, 05:47:09 AM »

I think it's ok to make generalisations though. Like, Italians are generally darker and Swedes are generally lighter haired, with more blue eyes.

On the Welsh..... I have one Welsh grandmother who was ginger haired, pale skinned with striking blue eyes. The other grandmother had almost black hair and dark eyes. Amongst my Welsh relatives there are all mixture of hair colours but on the whole dark hair is most common.

Generally speaking, where I live in Eastern England, lighter brown and fairer hair is more common than it is in the parts of North Wales with which I am familiar.

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Jean M
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« Reply #90 on: September 04, 2012, 07:13:48 AM »

Generally speaking, where I live in Eastern England, lighter brown and fairer hair is more common than it is in the parts of North Wales with which I am familiar.

Very true. I was brought up in Eastern England, and so were my sons, who really stood out in classrooms full of blonds. Of course many blonds go darker in adult life, so the difference is not quite so striking among adults. It is perfectly fair though to make a generalisation. And equally fair to assume that a large input of Angles helps to explain what we see today.

But colouring is so crude a tool in attempting to work out population affinities that it is best abandoned now that we have genetics. Pigmentation can change in one generation. If for example my blond, blue-eyed sister had been adopted, she would have no way of knowing that both her parents had dark hair and eyes. Likewise a child with dark colouring might have two out of four grandparents blond and blue-eyed and have no idea of this if adopted. Certainly if I had been adopted, I would never have guessed that most of my ancestors were from the Danelaw, though there is a bit of a clue in my blood-group.
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« Reply #91 on: September 05, 2012, 03:57:32 AM »

Generally speaking, where I live in Eastern England, lighter brown and fairer hair is more common than it is in the parts of North Wales with which I am familiar.

Very true. I was brought up in Eastern England, and so were my sons, who really stood out in classrooms full of blonds. Of course many blonds go darker in adult life, so the difference is not quite so striking among adults. It is perfectly fair though to make a generalisation. And equally fair to assume that a large input of Angles helps to explain what we see today.

But colouring is so crude a tool in attempting to work out population affinities that it is best abandoned now that we have genetics. Pigmentation can change in one generation. If for example my blond, blue-eyed sister had been adopted, she would have no way of knowing that both her parents had dark hair and eyes. Likewise a child with dark colouring might have two out of four grandparents blond and blue-eyed and have no idea of this if adopted. Certainly if I had been adopted, I would never have guessed that most of my ancestors were from the Danelaw, though there is a bit of a clue in my blood-group.


Very wise words Jean M.

The interesting thing about these old timer anthropologists like Beddoe, is that in their own way they were trying to answer questions about the origins of people, just like we are on this forum, but without knowledge of genetics.

I will admit that the Victorians were obsessed with race, particularly about differences between Saxon and Celt and  a lot of what they wrote wasn't just crude it was downright racist, like when they linked physical traits to intelligence.

However, I do believe that Beddoe's observation of hair colour was pretty accurate.

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« Reply #92 on: September 06, 2012, 04:40:09 AM »

Avalon wrote...

I will admit that the Victorians were obsessed with race, particularly about differences between Saxon and Celt and  a lot of what they wrote wasn't just crude it was downright racist, like when they linked physical traits to intelligence.

[/quote]

That's interesting, Avalon. I came across some Victorian 'tweaking' of reality many years ago when first researching my surname. Legend had it that we were via Siward, an Anglo-Dane. However, his only son died without any male issue! One researcher made much of a sword engraving found on a monument. He claimed 'sword' represented 'Siward'.

Victoria loved Albert & all things Germanic were held up as being virtuous. I think some researchers of that time 'found' links to Germanic progenitors where none actually existed! Ironically, Victoria's later  fondness for John Brown saw a burst of enthusiasm for all things Scottish!

I used to have a Victorian cottage & the fireplace mantlepieces were in black marble - very drab. I was told that many houses built after Albert's death had black mantlepieces in his honour. Many women dressed in black for considerable periods of time to mark Albert's passing. This gives one an idea of how close the country felt towards Victoria.

I mention the above so others might treat Victorian research with a pinch of salt on occasions. I have no bias on the issue of Celt v Germanic people as I may be from either camp!

Bob
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 04:40:46 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
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Bren123
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« Reply #93 on: September 06, 2012, 11:24:44 AM »


I have to say that many Welsh people have the look of Iberians. Chris Coleman, the current Welsh football manager,
Bob

Really? What about people like Rhys Ifans,Kathryn Jenkins,Martin Williams(former welsh rugby player) who has red hair BTW and this includes Stephen Jenkins former outside half?
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« Reply #94 on: September 06, 2012, 11:42:22 AM »

I think it's ok to make generalisations though. Like, Italians are generally darker and Swedes are generally lighter haired, with more blue eyes.

On the Welsh..... I have one Welsh grandmother who was ginger haired, pale skinned with striking blue eyes. The other grandmother had almost black hair and dark eyes. Amongst my Welsh relatives there are all mixture of hair colours but on the whole dark hair is most common.

Generally speaking, where I live in Eastern England, lighter brown and fairer hair is more common than it is in the parts of North Wales with which I am familiar.



You also have mixtures where the person has black hair with light blue eyes and vice versa! I was watching the BBC news the other day and it concerned a school in North West Wales,and the number of children there who had blond hair but their parents were dark haired was quite surprising;I've noticed this myself BTW!
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« Reply #95 on: September 06, 2012, 11:49:04 AM »

Probably a lot blond haired milk men in the area.
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« Reply #96 on: September 06, 2012, 11:49:29 AM »

Aside from the R1b connection (which is probably not significant, atleast in a Out-of-Iberia sort of way), the latest genetic papers ("Genes and geography in Europe"... etc) show British (including welsh samples I suppose) and Irish clustering with other Northern Europeans like Germans and Dutch. The Spanish nearly always cluster quite far away.

That looks very interesting,do you have a link? On the BBC,I think it was the welcome trust's autosomal genetic survey stated that the Welsh,on the hand are similar to the Irish and on the other similar to the French.
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« Reply #97 on: September 06, 2012, 11:50:45 AM »

Probably a lot blond haired milk men in the area.

ROFL! That would certainly be the case in the valleys!
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« Reply #98 on: September 06, 2012, 11:52:27 AM »

I agree that there is a mixture, Bren123. However, I did say 'many', not 'all'. I would expect to see red-headed Welsh players, just as I would expect to see Scots , Irish & English rugby players with similar looks.
I think my main point was that the players who look most incongruous to me are the extremely dark haired lads. Let's reverse the situation: I'd perform a double-take if I saw a very fair-haired Italian footballer. Think of the French (rugby) flankers over the years: the one who stood out in earlier decades was Jean-Pierre Rives. If you didn't know he was French, I think most folk would have put him down as Danish, German or something similar, due to his  flaxen locks.
A few years back I was watching a Denmark game during the World Cup (or Euros) & the big talking point for us blokes  were the legions of beautiful fair-haired gals who followed the Danes. I'm sure there were girls supporting Denmark with different hair colouring, but the impression was of a sea of blondes!
Cheers,
Bob
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« Reply #99 on: September 06, 2012, 11:59:33 AM »

Bob,

I would recommend reading Cunliffe, Koch, Moffat and Wilson who seem to have a good handle on this from a Culture, Language, Archealogy and Genetics point of view.

There are two view points. One is the Celtic connection with Iberia and I believe that is supported by all of the ablove.

Celtic from the West - Cunliffe and Koch
Europe Between the Oceans - Cunliffe
The Scots a Genetic Journey - Moffat and Wilson
The Sea Kingdoms - Moffat

Another is the Ancient Welsh and Britons.
One of the main LGM refugium was in Iberia, so I guess there is also an Iberian connection for the pre Celtic people. This is addressed in some of the above. I will check specific references for you when I get home this evening.

I have provided links to these books here:

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/books-worth-reading/

Isn't this just a rehashing of what Oppenheimer tried to inply?
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