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Castlebob
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« Reply #125 on: September 08, 2012, 07:56:39 AM »

I agree re the Cumbrian percentage. Bizarre! We're led to believe that the Cumbrians & Welsh were of the same tribal origins. I won't go into great depth about that, but it is said that Brythonic warriors were welcomed into each others territories etc. As a result, I would expect to see a lot of similarities between the two regions.
Is it possible that the split which occurred when tribes from the east created a chasm between the Welsh & Cumbrians resulted in  dramatically differing hair colouring? I'd doubt that would be the case.
Bob
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 08:15:28 AM by Castlebob » Logged

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avalon
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« Reply #126 on: September 08, 2012, 09:26:25 AM »

Bren,

Quote
Here's a map of red hair in europe;



I forgot to mention this is from a genetic study!

Is this the same genetic study that claims 0% of people in Cumbria carry this gene for red hair? I find this strange given that the north east (right next to Cumbria) had 11%.


I found that strange, the 0% figure for Cumbria  as well but it is more up ot date than the Beddoe study.

You can't compare the two studies. One is about a MC1R gene for red hair and carriers of that gene are not necessarily red haired. Beddoe's observations were of actual hair and eye colour. And Beddoe was looking at all shades of hair colour, not just red which is a small minority everywhere in the UK.

And just because Beddoe's study is old that doesn't make it wrong. The works of Charles Darwin and Isaac Newton are quite old! Does that mean we should ignore them?

Likewise, don't believe everything that is modern or genetic is necessarily true, particulalrly when they produce strange results for Cumbria? Population genetics is fraught with difficulties and controversy.

Also, you're comparing two different points in history. How do we know that if had they conducted an MCR1 red hair gene study in the 1860s/70s the results would be the same as today?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 09:34:28 AM by avalon » Logged
palamede
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« Reply #127 on: September 08, 2012, 11:24:19 AM »

G2a3b1a2-L497 came from North-West Caucasus G2a3b (frequency from 25% to 65%) to Central Europe during LBK some 7700 years  ago probably (G2a3 was found in ancient dna of the German LBK).

Now, G2a3b1a2 varies from a maximum of 3-5% in North-Italy, Tyrol, Switzerland and South Germany to less than 1% in Britanic Islands (except Wales), Scandinavia and  Eastern Europe(except 2-3% in Moldavia and Romania).

Wales has a frequency greater than 1% and  a special marker dys594=11 known since several years. In FTDNA, they are grouped in a special subclade G2a3b1a2a3 in page 6/7 of http://www.familytreedna.com/public/g-ydna/default.aspx?vgroup=g-ydna&section=ycolorized

The names are 6 Williams, 5 Jones, 5 Griffin, 5 Thomas, 4 Bird, 2 Greever, 2 Wigington, 2 Walter, 2Jenkins, 2 Griffith, Rippy, Pitts, Lewis, Taylor, Anderson, Howard, Canniff, Mangum, Crow, Griffiths, Roderick, Wamsley, MacLaughlin(Petersen), Delong(DELange), Vizenor,  Doughty .

2 years ago, I tried to find new subclades. I found the welsh group was distinguished by several assembled markers (including dys594=11) :
                                                                                                                                                                           
385b=15   458>16   413a=21 594=11  446<19   572=10    plus  frequent values r 449<31  456>15   576>15    570=17    444>13   464c=13

I found the "welsh" group is included in a larger group defined by  385b=15   458>16 with the names
5 Allen, 2 Timms, Frantz, Pasak, Schock, 2 Griffin, Karcher, Bieser, Wildey, Politis, Beckner, Van Hise.

Other subgroups in the larger group
- Group 385b=15, 447=22, 458=17
3 Williams, 2 Thomas, 2 Jones, 2 Watson, Morgan, King, Coe, Douglas, Forster, Blaney, Page, Mitchell, Phillips, Greever, Taylor, Anderson, Gough, Griffith, Johnson, Kincaid
                                                                                                                                                                           
- Group 385b=15, 439=12, 458>16
10 Booher, 2 Stockton, Souders, Dubs, Friberg, Desmond, Ayers, Greever, Kyle, Beckner
                                                                                                                                                                           
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 12:24:19 PM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
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Castlebob
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« Reply #128 on: September 08, 2012, 03:50:04 PM »

Some interesting posts. My guess, based on very loose perusal of various haplogroup/surname combinations was that Brythonic Celts would have a good number of R1b1a2a1a1b4 amongst them. (That's not my HG, for the record!).
I recall listing a number of the older Welsh surnames, plus some of the Scottish  Stewarts (soem Bretons?),  & seeing that HG well represented.
As I said, I didn't go to great lengths, so very possibly barking up the wrong tree!
Bob
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razyn
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« Reply #129 on: September 08, 2012, 05:22:56 PM »

My guess, based on very loose perusal of various haplogroup/surname combinations was that Brythonic Celts would have a good number of R1b1a2a1a1b4 amongst them. (That's not my HG, for the record!).

According to ISOGG now, it's not anybody's.  Old FTDNA nomenclature (since way back in '11 -- if not even longer ago) thinks it's R-L21, I guess.

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 06:59:18 PM by razyn » Logged

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avalon
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« Reply #130 on: September 09, 2012, 06:31:51 AM »

I hope PoBI produce meaningful results as it'd be useful to try & separate the oldest inhabitants in Wales from the Brythonic Celts, plus the later influx of Normans & Flemings etc.
If the Brythonic Celts were in a majority west of the Pennines, then I'd expect to see some similarities  between those who have Brythonic Celt origins in England & southern central Scotland with their 'cousins' in Wales.
Am I right in thinking that PoBI are in the process of evaluating Y-DNA samples? I'm sure I read that somewhere!
Bob
 

Bob,

I think it's difficult to figure out genetic input into Wales during historic times, nevermind during prehistory. To my mind population genetics is just not accurate enough yet, there is still so much disagreement.

For instance, how much genetic input did the Romans have on Wales? The archaeology and history would suggest less than England but who knows.

Likewise, the Strathclyde Britons under Cunedda came to Wales in the 5th century but what was their genetic input, how closely related were they to the Welsh anyway.

Then of course you have the Viking sea raiders that left placenames in South West Wales and impacted on Anglesey and there were also various connections between Wales and Ireland in the post Roman period.

Finally, what was the genetic impact of the Normans. They made various inroads into Wales between 1081 and 1282 but their occupation of Wales was largely a military one, as evidenced by all the castles but there was some Anglo-Norman settlement in Wales, such as the Vale of Clwyd and South Pembrokeshire, but Norman incursion into Wales was very much piecemeal in the Middle Ages.

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Castlebob
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« Reply #131 on: September 09, 2012, 06:47:37 AM »

Very true, Avalon.
I re-read Henri Hubert's 'Celtic' series occasionally & it'll be interesting to see which of the authors (old & more recent) will be found to be most accurate.
DNA sampling is fraught with problems: William Rufus ferried a lot of Lincolnshire folk into parts of Cumbria, & they wouldn't generally share ancestry with the Brythonic Celts. I know the Normans had a presence, too. That's before we consider the Angles & Danes etc!
You've mentioned the various 'incomers' into Wales. I'd guess that sampling would have a greater accuracy if more remote areas were given priority, but suppose we'll have to wait for PoBI's final release to get an idea of what they actually focused on. At least time's flying by & the October (?) release date is getting closer!
Bob
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avalon
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« Reply #132 on: September 09, 2012, 06:57:58 AM »

I hope PoBI produce meaningful results as it'd be useful to try & separate the oldest inhabitants in Wales from the Brythonic Celts, plus the later influx of Normans & Flemings etc.
If the Brythonic Celts were in a majority west of the Pennines, then I'd expect to see some similarities  between those who have Brythonic Celt origins in England & southern central Scotland with their 'cousins' in Wales.
Am I right in thinking that PoBI are in the process of evaluating Y-DNA samples? I'm sure I read that somewhere!
Bob
 

Yeah it would be brilliant if some of the clusters could be directly identified with known historical groups with a deal certainty, that would make things a lot easier - To have a reference point. A lot of them look like various mixes that are relatively local - Or at least localised enough to differentiate them from their geographical neighbours. I guess when/if there is this kind of information, it will make it easier to look at these clusters and think 'Well what kind of a history do these people have that groups A and B next to them don't have'. I think that 'yellow' cluster in Ireland and Scotland could be pretty handy for seeing how well it matches Dal Riata, and again the whole North vs South Welsh thing is interesting - I've heard on many occasions that there is a definite North/South split in Wales - Interesting to see it replicated here in some fashion too.
I think the Y-DNA part of the project could be very useful (provided they have tested to a reasonable resolution, if it's a case of just testing for R1b/R1a/I i guess it's fairly useless). Even if it takes a couple of years before it's accessible - It's still a vast amount of information.

I'm thinking that big red blob is going to best represented by R1b-U106/R1b-U152 in Y-DNA terms (compared to the other groups i mean, still plenty of L21). Given that it has a signal from Belgium to Denmark basically, i'd put money on there being some significant Belgic role in that, as well as Anglo-Saxon or Danish, especially as it includes most of the South Coast and Kent, where there seems to be a lot of U152.

There are dialect differences between the Welsh spoken in North and South Wales but it's not massive, mainly in some pronounciaton and vocabulary.

It doesn't surprise me to see different clusters in Wales. Much of Welsh history is littered with accounts of different Welsh tribes/kingdoms fighting each other. The Welsh only occasionally came together to confront a mutual enenmy such as the Anglo-Saxons or Normans and even then the Welsh were often betrayed by their own countrymen.

There was some work done on blood groups in the 1950s by Morgan Watkin and Fraser Roberts. I believe both noticed regional differences in Wales, like blood group O was higher in the north.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #133 on: September 09, 2012, 07:23:36 AM »

I must consider blood groups as they are something I haven't bothered with.
On a different tack: I gather that 'deg' is Welsh for ten? I wonder if the Battle of Degsastan's location was in Liddedale, Roxburghshire at Nine Stane Rig? I imagine there may have been ten stones there originally, but one removed in later centuries for other purposes? Perhaps it should be Ten Stane Rig? It is near Dawston, which some believe was the site. Others are adamant that it wasn't!
Anyway, I've drifted off topic.
Bob
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avalon
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« Reply #134 on: September 09, 2012, 07:41:29 AM »

Very true, Avalon.
I re-read Henri Hubert's 'Celtic' series occasionally & it'll be interesting to see which of the authors (old & more recent) will be found to be most accurate.
DNA sampling is fraught with problems: William Rufus ferried a lot of Lincolnshire folk into parts of Cumbria, & they wouldn't generally share ancestry with the Brythonic Celts. I know the Normans had a presence, too. That's before we consider the Angles & Danes etc!
You've mentioned the various 'incomers' into Wales. I'd guess that sampling would have a greater accuracy if more remote areas were given priority, but suppose we'll have to wait for PoBI's final release to get an idea of what they actually focused on. At least time's flying by & the October (?) release date is getting closer!
Bob

DNA sampling is problematic, not least because Industrialisation has made the British population so much more mixed than it was pre-1750. A lot of the y-dna studies in Britain ask that the participant has a grandfather born in the town but that might only take ancestry in the area back to the early 20th century.

My feeling is that rural, farming communities have been more stable within the last few hundred years, so therefore might give a better indication of deep ancestry. This isn't always true though, some people have taken up farming in more recent times.
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avalon
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« Reply #135 on: September 09, 2012, 02:29:54 PM »

I must consider blood groups as they are something I haven't bothered with.
On a different tack: I gather that 'deg' is Welsh for ten? I wonder if the Battle of Degsastan's location was in Liddedale, Roxburghshire at Nine Stane Rig? I imagine there may have been ten stones there originally, but one removed in later centuries for other purposes? Perhaps it should be Ten Stane Rig? It is near Dawston, which some believe was the site. Others are adamant that it wasn't!
Anyway, I've drifted off topic.
Bob

The bit i read about blood groups was by Morgan Watkin, a Welsh scientist. http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v10/n2/abs/hdy195616a.html
You can view the pdf.

It is from 1955 and some of what is written is dated. Nevertheless, blood group analyisis was an early type of genetic study.

It appears that in Wales blood group O is more common in North Wales than in South Wales. And the same is also true when you compare Northern England to Southern England, which is interersting.



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SEJJ
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« Reply #136 on: September 09, 2012, 04:04:52 PM »

Very true, Avalon.
I re-read Henri Hubert's 'Celtic' series occasionally & it'll be interesting to see which of the authors (old & more recent) will be found to be most accurate.
DNA sampling is fraught with problems: William Rufus ferried a lot of Lincolnshire folk into parts of Cumbria, & they wouldn't generally share ancestry with the Brythonic Celts. I know the Normans had a presence, too. That's before we consider the Angles & Danes etc!
You've mentioned the various 'incomers' into Wales. I'd guess that sampling would have a greater accuracy if more remote areas were given priority, but suppose we'll have to wait for PoBI's final release to get an idea of what they actually focused on. At least time's flying by & the October (?) release date is getting closer!
Bob

DNA sampling is problematic, not least because Industrialisation has made the British population so much more mixed than it was pre-1750. A lot of the y-dna studies in Britain ask that the participant has a grandfather born in the town but that might only take ancestry in the area back to the early 20th century.

My feeling is that rural, farming communities have been more stable within the last few hundred years, so therefore might give a better indication of deep ancestry. This isn't always true though, some people have taken up farming in more recent times.

Yeah that is a very good point - In an ideal world they would test people who could prove most of their ancestry back to around that point in order for accuracy - But as for most people that is extremely difficult and/or practically impossible (It's pretty hard getting it back to the early-mid 19th century when records aren't great), i doubt they would have more than a handful of people to test unfortunately.

I think POBI did factor in that Rural/Urban split into it though - In their initial paper release some time ago there was an analysis of the East vs West in Oxfordshire, and it showed that for those who weren't rural or local, they were a lot more mixed between East/West, while the ones who were rural and local according to their criteria tended to be much less mixed, and mostly East. So i guess that is proof of what you are saying, and it applies to Wales too of course. Rural, farming communities seem much more homogenous over a certain distance than do people with a largely urban family background.
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rms2
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« Reply #137 on: September 09, 2012, 07:29:55 PM »

Man, if genetic studies are problematic, imagine studies that involved men in the 19th century going around and deciding whose hair was what color! Caramba!

Then, just for fun, imagine what things would have been like if those men had an agenda, like pleasing their English patrons and reinforcing their notions of the "superiority" of "Anglo-Saxon" England.

BTW, it stands to reason that an area that has a high frequency of one or more of the MC1R variants for red hair, as revealed by genetic testing, would have a higher incidence of the manifestation of red hair than areas that do not. Try to think of a scenario in which an area with a low frequency of an RHC (Red Hair Color) variant has a higher incidence of red hair than an area with a high frequency of RHC.

My Family Finder raw data revealed that I have one of the RHC variants: a "T" at rs1805008, which is also known as R160W or Arg160Trp. It is the one common in Ireland, and apparently the one tested for by the POBI Project. I have a "TC" there, so I don't have red hair myself, although my moustache used to show pretty red, and people used to tell me I had "red highlights" in my otherwise brown hair (I was blond as a kid). One needs to be homozygous at rs1805008, with a "TT", to actually have red hair, since red hair is a recessive trait.

My wife must have an RHC variant, too, even though she doesn't have red hair herself, because our youngest daughter has red hair, and our three grandchildren (two boys and a girl, the children of one of our sons) have red hair.

One of my dad's older sisters, my Aunt Lois, had red hair.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 07:33:53 PM by rms2 » Logged

eochaidh
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« Reply #138 on: September 09, 2012, 10:15:34 PM »

I've got rs1805008 CT, but I only know of one full redhead in my family; my dad's first cousin on his maternal side (Quinn, Co. Derry).

I know of no redheads on my mother's side, but I think she may have had red highlights. She was gray by 30 years old. I had quite a bit of red in my beard in my 30s.

Interesting.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #139 on: September 10, 2012, 02:22:56 AM »

I don't have red hair myself, although my moustache used to show pretty red

Rich, that reminded me of something from my youth. I had black hair as a young man, and decided to grow a beard & moustache. I was staggered to see that approx one third of it was quite red. I looked like a German Shepherd dog! My family all had black hair, so I wondered where the red had come from.
Some years ago, I managed to track down a descendant of a distant branch of our family  who shared a paper-trail ancestor in 1701. He Y-DNA tested & matched me at 66/67. He told me his lot were often red-heads. I also managed to find another distant relative from 1728, & they tested 36/37. They also had red-heads aplenty.
Most of my hair has gone now, & what I do have is grey - including my recent beard & moustache!
Bob
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avalon
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« Reply #140 on: September 10, 2012, 03:05:33 AM »

Didn't really want to get bogged down in a hair colour discussion again and this thread wasn't originally about red hair....But, I may well carry a red hair gene as well. One grandmother was strikingly red haired but all my other grandparents were darker. I have very dark hair, that looks black from a distance.

The 0% figure for Cumbria still baffles me. I have been to the Lake District many times and I have met red haired, born and bred Cumbrians.

There are different red haired genes so I suppose that the Cumbrians may carry a different red haired gene to the one in this study so that might explain it.

I've got books at home by Welsh writers from the 20th century who describe the Celts as a mixture of a dark haired and red haired people, red obviously being the minority. This was the traditonal view for much of the 20th century, I've read so many references to this view in text books, guide books, general history, etc.


By the way, if we talk about stereotypes, most people I know tend to think of ginger hair as a Scottish trait rather than an Irish one! And then of course there is the sterotype of darker Welsh people.

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« Reply #141 on: September 10, 2012, 07:32:18 AM »

rms2

Quote
To sum up, these are the frequencies of the two red-hair variants of the MCR1 gene studied by Bodmer and the People of the British Isles Project.

Cornwall: 16%
Devon: 23%
Wales: 21%
Orkney: 26%
Oxfordshire: 7%
Sussex and Kent: 13%
North East England: 11%
Lincolnshire: 7%
Cumbria: 0%
Ireland: 31%


In a thread back in July you claimed that the Scadinavians and Germanics were not known for red hair.

And yet.. Orkney in this study is quite high at 26% and is known for a substantial settlement of Norse Vikings.

Also, this red hair gene map here http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/looks.shtml from Royrvik 2010 shows that Denmark has quite high red hair genes. According to that map even Sweden has a higher level than Ireland.

Funny that, that two different genetic studies can show different results!


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« Reply #142 on: September 10, 2012, 07:43:29 AM »

I don't have red hair myself, although my moustache used to show pretty red

Rich, that reminded me of something from my youth. I had black hair as a young man, and decided to grow a beard & moustache. I was staggered to see that approx one third of it was quite red. I looked like a German Shepherd dog! My family all had black hair, so I wondered where the red had come from.
Some years ago, I managed to track down a descendant of a distant branch of our family  who shared a paper-trail ancestor in 1701. He Y-DNA tested & matched me at 66/67. He told me his lot were often red-heads. I also managed to find another distant relative from 1728, & they tested 36/37. They also had red-heads aplenty.
Most of my hair has gone now, & what I do have is grey - including my recent beard & moustache!
Bob

Have you had the Family Finder test, Bob? If so, you can download your raw data and use the "Find" function in Excel to locate rs1805008 and see if you have a "T" there. You probably do.

The most common European lactase persistence markers are also among the Family Finder data.
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« Reply #143 on: September 10, 2012, 07:53:22 AM »

I hope PoBI produce meaningful results as it'd be useful to try & separate the oldest inhabitants in Wales from the Brythonic Celts, plus the later influx of Normans & Flemings etc.
If the Brythonic Celts were in a majority west of the Pennines, then I'd expect to see some similarities  between those who have Brythonic Celt origins in England & southern central Scotland with their 'cousins' in Wales.
Am I right in thinking that PoBI are in the process of evaluating Y-DNA samples? I'm sure I read that somewhere!
Bob
 

I think there is a good case that in the post-Roman period, Celtic speakers survived for longer in the North West of England compared to southern England. Cornwall and Devon are obviously excluded.

The native Celts may have sought refuge in the uplands of northern England, in the Pennines, Dales, Lakes - areas where the soils are poor so the Anglo-Saxons may have left the hills and mountains alone anyway and settled on the fertile lowlands.

I read years ago that a celtic tongue may have survived in Cumbria as late as the 11th century and of course you have the Cumbria sheep counting which resembles Celtic.

And also there is Brythonic Elmet, modern day West Yorkshire, where several place names indicated celtic survival.

Blood group O is also higher in Northern England, similar to frequencies found in the Celtic countries.

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« Reply #144 on: September 10, 2012, 08:25:56 AM »



Have you had the Family Finder test, Bob? If so, you can download your raw data and use the "Find" function in Excel to locate rs1805008 and see if you have a "T" there. You probably do.

The most common European lactase persistence markers are also among the Family Finder data.

I haven't gone that route, Rich. I could do with a lottery win to complete all the tests I'm keen to take!
Bob
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« Reply #145 on: September 10, 2012, 08:28:52 AM »

I suppose the old adage  'Take to the hills!' applied when under threat, Avalon. I know Authun is very keen on a 'Free Zone' in inaccessible reaches of the Pennines etc.
I know that when my wife is on the rampage, I take to the garden shed!
Bob
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« Reply #146 on: September 10, 2012, 08:31:52 AM »

Man, if genetic studies are problematic, imagine studies that involved men in the 19th century going around and deciding whose hair was what color! Caramba!

Then, just for fun, imagine what things would have been like if those men had an agenda, like pleasing their English patrons and reinforcing their notions of the "superiority" of "Anglo-Saxon" England.


I don't think Beddoe had a ""superior Anglo-Saxon" agenda. He was born not far from the Welsh border and had a Welsh surname. The Welsh Eisteddfod also accepted his views in 1867 and the Eisteddfod is deeply admired in Wales. Bryan Sykes said in his book that Beddoe was thorough and balanced in his observations.

Likewise; Fleure, Elwyn Davies (very Welsh) and T James (Welsh surname) who carried out their surveys in the 1930s were very thorough in their work and displayed an intimate knowledge of Wales, not surprising given that two of them were Welsh. I believe Fleure was from the Channel Islands which makes sense given his French sounding name.

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avalon
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« Reply #147 on: September 10, 2012, 10:17:34 AM »

I suppose the old adage  'Take to the hills!' applied when under threat, Avalon. I know Authun is very keen on a 'Free Zone' in inaccessible reaches of the Pennines etc.
I know that when my wife is on the rampage, I take to the garden shed!
Bob

Interesting, I have never heard the term "free zone?"

The Welsh certainly took advantage of their hilly and mountainous terrain during the many battles with the English. I guess the same could apply to the Pennines and Cumbria.
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OConnor
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« Reply #148 on: September 10, 2012, 10:28:53 AM »

rms2

Quote
To sum up, these are the frequencies of the two red-hair variants of the MCR1 gene studied by Bodmer and the People of the British Isles Project.

Cornwall: 16%
Devon: 23%
Wales: 21%
Orkney: 26%
Oxfordshire: 7%
Sussex and Kent: 13%
North East England: 11%
Lincolnshire: 7%
Cumbria: 0%
Ireland: 31%


In a thread back in July you claimed that the Scadinavians and Germanics were not known for red hair.

And yet.. Orkney in this study is quite high at 26% and is known for a substantial settlement of Norse Vikings.

Also, this red hair gene map here http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/looks.shtml from Royrvik 2010 shows that Denmark has quite high red hair genes. According to that map even Sweden has a higher level than Ireland.

Funny that, that two different genetic studies can show different results!

Perhaps Erik the Red got his name because he blushed a lot ;)
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Castlebob
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« Reply #149 on: September 10, 2012, 10:38:33 AM »

I suppose the old adage  'Take to the hills!' applied when under threat, Avalon. I know Authun is very keen on a 'Free Zone' in inaccessible reaches of the Pennines etc.
I know that when my wife is on the rampage, I take to the garden shed!
Bob

Interesting, I have never heard the term "free zone?"

The Welsh certainly took advantage of their hilly and mountainous terrain during the many battles with the English. I guess the same could apply to the Pennines and Cumbria.
I think Authun may have invented the description. I think he was likening it to the Debateable Land between England & Scotland. I think he was suggesting that some doughty, free spirits held out on the higher ground - particularly during the Normans' Harrying of the North'
Bob
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 10:39:36 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
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