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razyn
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« Reply #100 on: September 06, 2012, 12:29:03 PM »

Oppenheimer is one of the numerous authors represented in Celtic from the West, but so what?  There is good stuff in these books, and maybe some malarkey too, but they move the discussion along.  Much of it is innovative, and some of that turns out to be right.
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« Reply #101 on: September 06, 2012, 12:31:24 PM »

Aside from the R1b connection (which is probably not significant, atleast in a Out-of-Iberia sort of way), the latest genetic papers ("Genes and geography in Europe"... etc) show British (including welsh samples I suppose) and Irish clustering with other Northern Europeans like Germans and Dutch. The Spanish nearly always cluster quite far away.

That looks very interesting,do you have a link? On the BBC,I think it was the welcome trust's autosomal genetic survey stated that the Welsh,on the hand are similar to the Irish and on the other similar to the French.
There are many genetic studies looking at Europe, many of which use tens of thousnads of SNPs.

For example:

http://spittoon.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/novembreblogpostfig.jpg

http://rs.resalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/figure1a_600.jpg
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Bren123
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« Reply #102 on: September 06, 2012, 12:54:42 PM »

rms2,

Quote
I would have never guessed you had any Welsh blood at all. It's surprising, given the tone of your posts.

Can you direct me to any of my posts that were anti-Welsh or anti-Celtic? I honestly don't see why you think this. If anything, because of my Welsh blood, I am actually biased towards the Celtic countries.

Quote
I think we are talking past one another. I'm not sure how to correct that. I don't much care for your posts, so I think I will largely ignore them.

Frankly, this is an immature response from somebody who realises they have lost the argument.

I have read a lot of your posts on this forum and on most topics you present good arguments and are knowledgeable. However, on this topic you are blind to the evidence.

I refer of course to Beddoe, Fleure, James and Davies, who I repeat, are the only people to have systematically recorded the hair and eye colour of people living in Wales.

Here's a map of red hair in europe;



I forgot to mention this is from a genetic study!
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 12:55:48 PM by Bren123 » Logged

LDJ
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« Reply #103 on: September 06, 2012, 12:57:14 PM »

Aside from the R1b connection (which is probably not significant, atleast in a Out-of-Iberia sort of way), the latest genetic papers ("Genes and geography in Europe"... etc) show British (including welsh samples I suppose) and Irish clustering with other Northern Europeans like Germans and Dutch. The Spanish nearly always cluster quite far away.

That looks very interesting,do you have a link? On the BBC,I think it was the welcome trust's autosomal genetic survey stated that the Welsh,on the hand are similar to the Irish and on the other similar to the French.
There are many genetic studies looking at Europe, many of which use tens of thousnads of SNPs.

For example:

http://spittoon.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/novembreblogpostfig.jpg

http://rs.resalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/figure1a_600.jpg

Thanks!
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Heber
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« Reply #104 on: September 06, 2012, 02:26:50 PM »

Oppenheimer is one of the numerous authors represented in Celtic from the West, but so what?  There is good stuff in these books, and maybe some malarkey too, but they move the discussion along.  Much of it is innovative, and some of that turns out to be right.

One of the major conferences on the subject was "Celtic from the West". The contributions of Cunliffe, Koch, McEvoy and Bradley are particularly interesting.

The contributions from Oppenheimer are summarised in Fig. 6.1 - 6.6. Regarding Wales his identification in Fig 6.5 of Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup E3b1a2 in Europe showing a specific expansion event from the Balkens during the early Balkens Bronze age. It shows a large clear founding event centred in North Wales with a substantial overall rate in the Abergele cluster of 39%. This is in proximity to the Great Ormes Head, Llandudno copper mines and he links this to Bronze Age Miners.

The importance of Iberia in the migration route from M269 - L21 appears to be supported by Celtic from the West and the latest data on DF27,  M167,  DF49 and Z253.
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763708372/

Here are some of the highlights:

Part 1. Archealogy

Celtization from the West,
the contribution of architecture.
Barry Cunliffe.
Fig 1.1 Relative density of ancient ‘Celtic looking’ place names. Hot spots on the atlantic Façade including Iberia..
Fig 1.3 Greek knowledge of the Celts in the age of Hecataeus and Herodotus. Largely confined to the Mediterranean and Black Sea. Greeks and Romans are not a reliable source for commentary on the Isles as much of their knowledge was second hand.
Fig 1.4 A cognitive geography of the Atlantic Zone as it might have been viewed by an Atlantic mariner, showing major rivers and inlets of Iberia and France.
Fig 1.5 Enclave colonisation. Europe in the period c 5500 - 4100 showing the two principal routes by which the Neolithic way of life spread through Europe from the southern Balkans, the overland spread via the Danube and North European Plain and the Mediterranean route by sea ultimately to the Atlantic coast of Iberia.
Fig 1.6 The distribution of megalithic tombs shows them to be essentially an Atlantic phenomenon. The earliest tombs  - passage graves dating c 4,500 - 3,500 BC - have a maritime distribution, suggesting that the beliefs and the technologies behind the construction was along the Atlantic seaways.
Fig 1.7 The distribution of jadeite axes from their source in the Western Alps across Europe. The distribution vividly displays the exchange networks then in operation.
Fig 1.8 The distribution of Maritime Bell Beaker in Atlantic Europe during the 3rd Millennium, the crucial nodes in this network were the Tagus estuary and the Morbihan, while major hinterland routes followed the navigable rivers. The map indicates the initial movements were maritime. Trade routes with Ireland and Southern Britain for copper and tin.
Fig 1.9 The extent of the Bell Beaker complex 2700-2200 BC. Major corridors of communication by sea and river. Mediterranean, Atlantic, Danube, Rhine,
Fig 1.10 The interaction of the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker Complexes c2500 BC. North European Plain.

The Celts from everywhere and nowhere. Raiumund Karl.
Different origins of Celtic cultural features with Linguistic Celtic origin along the Atlantic Façade, Archaeological ‘La Tene’ origin in central Europe and Historic ‘Druidic’ origin in the Isles.

Newly discovered inscriptions from the south-west of the Iberian peninsula. Tartessian. Amilcar Guerra.
An analysis of about 50 newly discovered stelae fromTartessian. Several photographs and sketches.

Part 2: Genetics.

Western Celts?
A genetic impression of Britain in Atlantic Europe. Ellen C. Royrvik.
Analysis of MC1R ‘red hair’ frequencies.
Map of Genetic variation in Europe.
Fig. 4.6 shows a Gaulish expansion leading to Iberia, Western France and the Isles.
Fig 4.7 shows a rough Highland and Lowland divide of the Isles with the south east more La Tene Gaulish and the West including Ireland representing a more pan Celtic profile.
Irish Genetics and the Celts. Brian McEvoy and Daniel Bradley.
Fig 5.1 Genetic contour map of Europe showing contours from Anatolia (SE) to the Isles (NW).
Fig 5.2 Genetic map of the Isles calculated from 300,000 SNPs spread across the autosomal genome showing Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England.
Fig 5.3 Contour map showing the geographic frequency distribution of the Irish Modal Haplogroup (IMH) and closely related Y-chromosones showing the NW Ireland hot spots.
Fig 5.4 Illustrative Genealogy of the Ui Neill dynasty (and derived surnames) from the 5th C to the present day.  Future testing will provide further insights as well as generating fresh debate on the Irish past.

A reanalysis of multiple prehistoric immigrations to Britain and Ireland aimed at identifying the Celtic contributions. Stephen Oppenheimer.
Fig 6.1 Map of Europe with frequency of ancient place names which were Celtic with hotspots in NW France, Iberia and the Isles.
Fig 6.2 Frequency distribution of genetic Haplogroup R1b. Reexpansion from south west Europe refugium in Iberia. The densest gene flow follows the Atlantic façade, thus favouring Ireland which was then part of the continent.
Fig 6.3 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroups Irb2 (M26) and Irb* (P37.2). The hotspots and possible homeland of I1b in the Balkens with Irb2 in Sardinia.
Fig 6.4 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup J2 (M12) in Europe showing expansion from the Balkens and hot spots in SE and NW Iberia. (Cruciani)
Fig 6.5 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup E3b1a2 in Europe with expansion from the Balkens. Cruciani. Hotspot in North Wales. The Basque region clusters with Ireland. North Wales Abergale cluster is an extreme outlier from the rest of the Isles.
Fig 6.6 Principal Componants Ananysis of Y Chromosones in Western Europe using R1b and R1a1 and I1b2 and I1a showing a gradient from Ireland via the Isles, Continent to Scandanavia.

Part 3 Language and Literature

Origen of the Celtic Languages. G.R. Isaac.
An analysis of the Indo European languages.
Tracking the course of the savage tongue. David N. Parsons.
Fig 8.1 British River names.
Fig 8.2-8.5 Various maps of ancient Europe showing occurrence of ‘~briga’, ‘~duno’, ‘~duro’,’~mag’ names. Many in Iberia.
Paradigm Shift? Interpreting Tartessian as Celtic. John T. Koch.
Fig 9.1 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae, Phoenician colonies, and Tartessian inscriptions. Shows Keltoi Tartessos region.
Fig 9.1 Celtic Expansion from Halstatt/La Tele central Europe.
Fig 9.3 The Ancient Celtic Languages. Shows Halstatt, Early La Tene, Urnfield and Atlantic Bronze Age with sharp division of Goidelic, Brittonic and gaulish.
Tartessian Inscriptions: There follows over 70 detailed photographs and transcriptions of stelae many of them with depictions of warriors and their their epitaphs.
“Where the evidence of Tartessos and Tartessian changes the picture is in showing that one of the most dynamic regions influencing Ireland and Britain during the period c 1300 – c900 BC was probably itself Celtic speaking and also in contact with and receiving influences from non Indo European partners in the eastern Meditteranean and north Africa.
Tartessian Linguistic Elements: A detailed alphabet and index of names and analysis of the grammar follows.
Ancient References to Tartessos. A very interesting compendium of classical references to Tartessos from Greeks, Romans, Assyrians and Hebrews, ranging from Aristotle,Cicero, Hecataeus, Herodotus, Livy, Ovid, Pliny the Elder, Seneca, Strabo, Theopompus and biblical references from Genesis, Kings, Chronicles, Psalm, Jeremiah, Jonah.

The Problem of Lusitanian. Dagmar S. Wodtko.
The core region inhabited by Lusitanian’s seems to have comprised the lands between the Douro and Tejo in northern Portugal.

Celtic from the West
Cunliffe & Koch

This book is an exploration of the new idea that the Celtic languages originated in the Atlantic Zone during the Bronze Age, approached from various perspectives: pro and con, archaeology, genetics, and philology. This 'Celtic Atlantic Bronze Age' theory represents a major departure from the long-established, but increasingly problematic scenario in which the story of the Ancient Celtic languages and that of peoples called Keltoi 'Celts' are closely bound up with the archaeology of the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures of Iron Age west-central Europe. The 'Celtic from the West' proposal was first presented in Barry Cunliffe's Facing the Ocean (2001) and has subsequently found resonance amongst geneticists. It provoked controversy on the part of some linguists, though is significantly in accord with John Koch's findings in Tartessian (2009). The present collection is intended to pursue the question further in order to determine whether this earlier and more westerly starting point might now be developed as a more robust foundation for Celtic studies. As well as having this specific aim, a more general purpose of Celtic from the West is to bring to an English-language readership some of the rapidly unfolding and too often neglected evidence of the pre-Roman peoples and languages of the western Iberian Peninsula. Celtic from the West is an outgrowth of a multidisciplinary conference held at the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth in December 2008. In addition to 11 chapters, the book includes 45 distribution maps and a further 80 illustrations. The conference and collaborative volume mark the launch of a multi-year research initiative undertaken by the University of Wales Centre for Advanced Welsh and Celtic Studies CAWCS]: Ancient Britain and the Atlantic Zone ABrAZo]. Contributors: (Archaeology) Barry Cunliffe; Raimund Karl; Amilcar Guerra; (Genetics) Brian McEvoy & Daniel Bradley; Stephen Oppenheimer; Ellen Rrvik; (Language & Literature) Graham Isaac; David Parsons; John T. Koch; Philip Freeman; Dagmar S. Wodtko.
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Heber


 
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Bren123
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« Reply #105 on: September 06, 2012, 04:18:23 PM »

The importance of Iberia in the migration route from M269 - L21 appears to be supported by Celtic from the West and the latest data on DF27,  M167,  DF49 and Z253.


Which there is no evidence provide aDNA to back this up!
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #106 on: September 06, 2012, 04:36:52 PM »

...
Here are some of the highlights:
....
The Celts from everywhere and nowhere. Raiumund Karl.

I love this thought. It seems to be just about right.

...
Fig 6.6 Principal Componants Ananysis of Y Chromosones in Western Europe using R1b and R1a1 and I1b2 and I1a showing a gradient from Ireland via the Isles, Continent to Scandanavia.

What are the gradiants depicting? and where are the highs and lows of this measurement?

...
Fig 9.1 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae,

What dating is given for the stelae? Do they link these to stelae from other locations?
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Heber
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« Reply #107 on: September 06, 2012, 04:44:22 PM »

The importance of Iberia in the migration route from M269 - L21 appears to be supported by Celtic from the West and the latest data on DF27,  M167,  DF49 and Z253.


Which there is no evidence provide aDNA to back this up!

There is very little Y aDNA anywhere. We will have to wait for BEAN and other studies for that.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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Heber
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« Reply #108 on: September 06, 2012, 05:26:09 PM »

...
Here are some of the highlights:
....
The Celts from everywhere and nowhere. Raiumund Karl.

I love this thought. It seems to be just about right.

...
Fig 6.6 Principal Componants Ananysis of Y Chromosones in Western Europe using R1b and R1a1 and I1b2 and I1a showing a gradient from Ireland via the Isles, Continent to Scandanavia.

What are the gradiants depicting? and where are the highs and lows of this measurement?

...
Fig 9.1 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae,

What dating is given for the stelae? Do they link these to stelae from other locations?

Fig 6.6 Page 143, principal components analysis of Y chromosomes in Western Europe determined by relative frequencies of R1b and R1a with secondary contribution of I1b2 and I1a, shows Basque, Irish, Iberian and Gaelic clustering on the left and Scandanavia, Norway, Iceland, Denmark clustering on the right with R1a1 with England, Orkney, Shetland, Isle of man in the middle.

Fig 9.1 Page 186 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae. Phoenician colonies, Tartessian inscriptions.
Undermann (1995) has allowed 700-500 BC as the date for the Tartessian inscriptions.
Links with Phoenicians, Cadiz colony of Tyre founded 80 years after the fall of Troy.
Cypriot connection in the West operating during the period between the fall of Mycenae and the first Phoenician colonies in Southern Spain.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #109 on: September 06, 2012, 10:46:43 PM »

"The Celts are from everywhere and nowhere."

Kaybee on the old DNA Forums used to say that it seems that we Irish came from nowhere and were dropped on the island of Ireland.

So many of us from Irish backgrounds just want to know how in the hell we got to Ireland! Of course, finding out how the Welsh got to Wales could help.

All I know is that we speak a Q-Celtic form of the Celtic language and that form is older than the P-Celtic form spoken in Gaul and on Britain. Certainly that has to tell us something!
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #110 on: September 06, 2012, 11:42:07 PM »

... All I know is that we speak a Q-Celtic form of the Celtic language and that form is older than the P-Celtic form spoken in Gaul and on Britain. Certainly that has to tell us something!

Strangely, from what I've read about language spread is that typically the archaic forms, like Q-Celtic, are found on the fringes of the original expansion. They were preserved in their isolation.   The innovations, or changes to the language, tend to happen closer to home.  This is directly related to the Satem innovations to the Indo-European languages. The Centum languages, like the Italo-Celtic and Germanic, were already gone from the homeland when the Satem changes were introduced.  The same concept is that the innovations to move to P Celtic happened closer to home after the initial expansion of archaic Q Celtic.
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Bren123
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« Reply #111 on: September 07, 2012, 02:43:45 AM »

... All I know is that we speak a Q-Celtic form of the Celtic language and that form is older than the P-Celtic form spoken in Gaul and on Britain. Certainly that has to tell us something!

Strangely, from what I've read about language spread is that typically the archaic forms, like Q-Celtic, are found on the fringes of the original expansion. They were preserved in their isolation.   The innovations, or changes to the language, tend to happen closer to home.  This is directly related to the Satem innovations to the Indo-European languages. The Centum languages, like the Italo-Celtic and Germanic, were already gone from the homeland when the Satem changes were introduced.  The same concept is that the innovations to move to P Celtic happened closer to home after the initial expansion of archaic Q Celtic.

That is very interesting!
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Bren123
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« Reply #112 on: September 07, 2012, 03:14:05 AM »


And, again, I'll take Andrea Corr over any fair haired, blue eyed Irish gal!

You could be greedy and take both!
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« Reply #113 on: September 07, 2012, 04:48:56 AM »

I hope PoBI produce meaningful results as it'd be useful to try & separate the oldest inhabitants in Wales from the Brythonic Celts, plus the later influx of Normans & Flemings etc.
If the Brythonic Celts were in a majority west of the Pennines, then I'd expect to see some similarities  between those who have Brythonic Celt origins in England & southern central Scotland with their 'cousins' in Wales.
Am I right in thinking that PoBI are in the process of evaluating Y-DNA samples? I'm sure I read that somewhere!
Bob
 
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« Reply #114 on: September 07, 2012, 08:54:34 AM »

I hope PoBI produce meaningful results as it'd be useful to try & separate the oldest inhabitants in Wales from the Brythonic Celts, plus the later influx of Normans & Flemings etc.
If the Brythonic Celts were in a majority west of the Pennines, then I'd expect to see some similarities  between those who have Brythonic Celt origins in England & southern central Scotland with their 'cousins' in Wales.
Am I right in thinking that PoBI are in the process of evaluating Y-DNA samples? I'm sure I read that somewhere!
Bob
 

Yeah it would be brilliant if some of the clusters could be directly identified with known historical groups with a deal certainty, that would make things a lot easier - To have a reference point. A lot of them look like various mixes that are relatively local - Or at least localised enough to differentiate them from their geographical neighbours. I guess when/if there is this kind of information, it will make it easier to look at these clusters and think 'Well what kind of a history do these people have that groups A and B next to them don't have'. I think that 'yellow' cluster in Ireland and Scotland could be pretty handy for seeing how well it matches Dal Riata, and again the whole North vs South Welsh thing is interesting - I've heard on many occasions that there is a definite North/South split in Wales - Interesting to see it replicated here in some fashion too.
I think the Y-DNA part of the project could be very useful (provided they have tested to a reasonable resolution, if it's a case of just testing for R1b/R1a/I i guess it's fairly useless). Even if it takes a couple of years before it's accessible - It's still a vast amount of information.

I'm thinking that big red blob is going to best represented by R1b-U106/R1b-U152 in Y-DNA terms (compared to the other groups i mean, still plenty of L21). Given that it has a signal from Belgium to Denmark basically, i'd put money on there being some significant Belgic role in that, as well as Anglo-Saxon or Danish, especially as it includes most of the South Coast and Kent, where there seems to be a lot of U152.
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« Reply #115 on: September 07, 2012, 09:39:17 AM »

... All I know is that we speak a Q-Celtic form of the Celtic language and that form is older than the P-Celtic form spoken in Gaul and on Britain. Certainly that has to tell us something!

Strangely, from what I've read about language spread is that typically the archaic forms, like Q-Celtic, are found on the fringes of the original expansion. They were preserved in their isolation.   The innovations, or changes to the language, tend to happen closer to home.  This is directly related to the Satem innovations to the Indo-European languages. The Centum languages, like the Italo-Celtic and Germanic, were already gone from the homeland when the Satem changes were introduced.  The same concept is that the innovations to move to P Celtic happened closer to home after the initial expansion of archaic Q Celtic.

Wasn't ireland meant to be cut off from main land Europe (supposedly there was a po[ulation drop also)  just pre iron age, and this continued for a while?
Kind of makes sense if the P shift entered Britain via Gaul.
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« Reply #116 on: September 07, 2012, 11:13:31 AM »

I can't recall where I read the info, SEJJ, but I gather a more definitive map showed some extra symbol/colour combinations. From my (appalling!) memory, I think Wales & southern Scotland apparently had a number of these additions.
That makes sense, as I was a little worried that the huge blob of red on one map seemed to indicate that the Brythonic Celts may have ceased to exist in western England & central southern Scotland! To my mind, the English & Scottish Brythonic Celt descendants would surely heavily outnumber their Welsh 'cousins' , even if only the western third of England's Celt population was considered.
Those 'sidelined' Celts need to be accounted for to help make sense of the other tribes - particularly as they potentially make up 30% + of the population of Britain. The 30%+ was a figure I read somewhere, but others may have a different view. However, if it is realistic, they may  be easy to spot in a detailed study. (I'm clinging to the hope that some haplogroups & sub-divisions may eventually be found in large numbers in various tribes, & that Y-DNA results are utilised).
I appreciate that some of these tribes will have a mix of haplogroups that might scupper any studies!
Bob
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mtDNA: U5b2b3
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« Reply #117 on: September 07, 2012, 12:53:07 PM »

I can't recall where I read the info, SEJJ, but I gather a more definitive map showed some extra symbol/colour combinations.

Over here?

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10956.msg136933#msg136933
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« Reply #118 on: September 07, 2012, 01:09:36 PM »

I can't recall where I read the info, SEJJ, but I gather a more definitive map showed some extra symbol/colour combinations.

Over here?

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10956.msg136933#msg136933
Thanks Razyn!
Bob
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« Reply #119 on: September 07, 2012, 02:33:33 PM »

I can't recall where I read the info, SEJJ, but I gather a more definitive map showed some extra symbol/colour combinations. From my (appalling!) memory, I think Wales & southern Scotland apparently had a number of these additions.
That makes sense, as I was a little worried that the huge blob of red on one map seemed to indicate that the Brythonic Celts may have ceased to exist in western England & central southern Scotland! To my mind, the English & Scottish Brythonic Celt descendants would surely heavily outnumber their Welsh 'cousins' , even if only the western third of England's Celt population was considered.
Those 'sidelined' Celts need to be accounted for to help make sense of the other tribes - particularly as they potentially make up 30% + of the population of Britain. The 30%+ was a figure I read somewhere, but others may have a different view. However, if it is realistic, they may  be easy to spot in a detailed study. (I'm clinging to the hope that some haplogroups & sub-divisions may eventually be found in large numbers in various tribes, & that Y-DNA results are utilised).
I appreciate that some of these tribes will have a mix of haplogroups that might scupper any studies!
Bob

Ahh yes i know which one you are talking about - I've seen it also, but i can't remember the name of that particular article (It is probably somewhere in my favourites bar though).

Yeah i do think that is a good point you raise - I saw you raise it also in another thread too, if we say the population of the UK is around 62 million, Scotland 5 Million, Wales 3 Million, Northern Ireland 2 Million (Only rough of course)that leaves probably 45-50 Million English, plus 10 Million Scots, Northern Irish, Welsh in the UK alone. The English would only need to be 20-25%+ Brythonic/Celtic in order to outnumber their counterparts to the west, that's assuming that the Welsh, Northern Irish, Scots are 100% Celtic, which they aren't. Obviously the Republic of Ireland has to be factored in as well, another 4.5 Million.

Also immigrants that aren't ethnically British or Irish have to be factored in as well, and given that England apparently has the largest immigrant communities (per head say), and that quite a lot of the population density outside of London seems centred more towards the north and west (Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds etc), the English would probably only have to be about 30% Brythonic in order to outnumber the Celts in Ireland, Wales and Scotland (Although everyday people in the street aren't 100% Celtic or 100% Germanic so this is an unrealistic scenario in that sense).

Now i would have thought that on average the English would be more than 30% Celtic, less in the East and more in the West (A generalisation i know) -I do agree  with your scenario - That due to the relatively small population of Ireland, Scotland, Wales - There is more Celtic ancestry from a numerical perspective in England, but conversely Ireland, Scotland and Wales proportionally are much more Celtic.

Yeah i agree - I think when we are dealing with the Celts in Britain and Ireland - We can't really use modern geographic boundaries - After all it's not as if any incomers from the continent (Belgic or Anglo Saxon) got to where our modern boundaries are and then suddenly decided to stop there. (You might argue otherwise -e.g. Offa's Dyke) although since when did a ditch prevent people moving over a 1500 year period!

I think it's misleading though to use an overarching term Celtic for those in Britain, Gaul, and Iberia as the Y-DNA demographics will be different in each case - It would be like considering the West Germanic and North Germanic peoples to be the same in terms of Y-DNA, when they aren't.

After all it's clear looking at the Y-DNA of the Celtic fringe and south-eastern Britain that we are dealing with distinct populations, but like someone said earlier i guess we don't really know what the southern and eastern lowlands of Britain were like in terms of Y-DNA before the migration era -It may have been close to identical to Ireland, Scotland, Wales - It may have been like France, western Germany etc. Although looking at parts of southern Britain now i would think that we would be looking for a population with a mixture of R1b-L21, R1b-U152, and perhaps a sprinkling of I1 and R1b-U106 (Although i suppose that last one depends on when you think it came westwards).

Then of course rises the problem that there may not be a population that represents  the pre-Germanic population in lowland Britain -It may have always been split between the Atlantic Facade and North-Sea. I don't personally think that it was that extensive at all if this was the case, although the continuity of R1b-U152 from the continent to a southern pocket in Britain (In high frequency that is) is quite interesting when you consider the Belgic people.

I think the best will be revealed when they:
a) Finish with their data and make it available (hopefully).
b) Include continental populations in larger volumes.

Sorry for the lengthy post, have a habit.
It's fun to write for a change, instead of reading :]

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Y-DNA: I1*
MT-DNA: U5a1b4
       
Castlebob
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« Reply #120 on: September 07, 2012, 03:48:51 PM »

I agree that the Belgae likely had a strong influence, SEJJ. I think we tend to overlook the Low Countries (if that's what they're still called!) as sources for much of our DNA. I looked closely at Flemish & Breton potential links re my own surname, and in the process realized just how strong their presence was.
We know of  the Stewart kings' links to Brittany, but I recall that Avelina d' Hesdin, mother of Alan Fitz Flaad, was a Fleming. Wasn't it through her that the Stewarts gained their land in Scotland? I think it might have been.
 Early Armstrongs used the name Archibald, taken from the Flemish, Erkenbald. Not that that proves anything. My surname used popular Norman names such as William & Robert in the 13th C, along with the more 'local' Ninian (Ringan) etc. The moniker 'Alan' was also recorded - a Breton name!
The Conqueror didn't help matters when he arranged marriages between Bretons, Flemings & Normans in a bid to keep the peace prior to the invasion. Chuck all those people into the equation, along with the Celts who had links to the Continent, & you're left with a real puzzle to disentangle!
Bob
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 02:45:00 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
Bren123
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« Reply #121 on: September 08, 2012, 06:27:19 AM »

... All I know is that we speak a Q-Celtic form of the Celtic language and that form is older than the P-Celtic form spoken in Gaul and on Britain. Certainly that has to tell us something!

Strangely, from what I've read about language spread is that typically the archaic forms, like Q-Celtic, are found on the fringes of the original expansion. They were preserved in their isolation.   The innovations, or changes to the language, tend to happen closer to home.  This is directly related to the Satem innovations to the Indo-European languages. The Centum languages, like the Italo-Celtic and Germanic, were already gone from the homeland when the Satem changes were introduced.  The same concept is that the innovations to move to P Celtic happened closer to home after the initial expansion of archaic Q Celtic.

Wasn't ireland meant to be cut off from main land Europe (supposedly there was a po[ulation drop also)  just pre iron age, and this continued for a while?
Kind of makes sense if the P shift entered Britain via Gaul.

There was a fall in the population of Britain during the late bronze age as well!
This BBC link is from last year:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12989605
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 06:27:38 AM by Bren123 » Logged

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avalon
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« Reply #122 on: September 08, 2012, 07:12:47 AM »

SEJJ,

Quote
Yeah i do think that is a good point you raise - I saw you raise it also in another thread too, if we say the population of the UK is around 62 million, Scotland 5 Million, Wales 3 Million, Northern Ireland 2 Million (Only rough of course)that leaves probably 45-50 Million English, plus 10 Million Scots, Northern Irish, Welsh in the UK alone. The English would only need to be 20-25%+ Brythonic/Celtic in order to outnumber their counterparts to the west, that's assuming that the Welsh, Northern Irish, Scots are 100% Celtic, which they aren't. Obviously the Republic of Ireland has to be factored in as well, another 4.5 Million.

Another thing to consider is that in the modern population of England (50 million) a large number of people have Welsh, Scottish or Irish ancestry.

There was a lot of Irish emigration to Liverpool, northern England and London in the 19th century and then again after WW2 I believe.

Likewise, the modern population of Wales has plenty of people with English ancestry.

Industrialisation and the railways did alter Britain, particularly in the towns and cities. Then of course, during the 20th century the motor car gave people even more mobility.
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avalon
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« Reply #123 on: September 08, 2012, 07:30:34 AM »

Bren,

Quote
Here's a map of red hair in europe;



I forgot to mention this is from a genetic study!

Is this the same genetic study that claims 0% of people in Cumbria carry this gene for red hair? I find this strange given that the north east (right next to Cumbria) had 11%.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 07:32:24 AM by avalon » Logged
Bren123
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« Reply #124 on: September 08, 2012, 07:40:38 AM »

Bren,

Quote
Here's a map of red hair in europe;



I forgot to mention this is from a genetic study!

Is this the same genetic study that claims 0% of people in Cumbria carry this gene for red hair? I find this strange given that the north east (right next to Cumbria) had 11%.


I found that strange, the 0% figure for Cumbria  as well but it is more up ot date than the Beddoe study.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 07:41:05 AM by Bren123 » Logged

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