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Author Topic: R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13  (Read 6483 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: August 28, 2012, 02:02:51 PM »

Here is an update on the DF49+ DF23- people. The ones in early branches way upstream of M222 (the NW Irish.)

I see RMS recruited the other McElrea relatives and is defaulting to the DF49* status, which makes sense.

We also have Wilson, so we should look at his variety, 25911, a little closer.

We have the Hopkins/McCabe variety too, 49-1226, and they have L302 and L319.1 within their ranks, although the positioning is to be determined.


f59601   Wilson   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   25911   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Cavan (? or Co. Leitrim)
f246749   McElrea   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   49 - unassigned   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Dunmullen
f223687   McElrea   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   49 - unassigned   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Dunmullen
f216031   McElrea   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   49 - unassigned   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Omagh, Parish of Cappagh
f129036   Harrison   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   49-1226   England, North West, Cheshire
f33932   Hopkins   R-L21/DF13/DF49*   49-1226   Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo, Derrylahan
f19499   Hopkins   R-L21/DF13/DF49   49-1226   zzCountry


What about these three Riddle's?  I had them in a probable DF23+ variety since they have high 481 values.

f131386   Riddle   zzL21predicted   49 -1214
f171267   Riddle   zzL21predicted   49 -1214
f207371   Riddle   zzL21predicted   49 -1214


Their GDs with the McElrea's are pretty wide but I noticed they have this STR signature in common with the McElrea's.
385b=15 389ii-i=17 458<=16 456<=15 413a<=22



« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 02:03:33 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2012, 04:56:39 PM »

Wouldn't the French Heritage DNA Project be the best bet to find DF49 prospects? There are French DF23+ samples, so DF49+, DF23- should be French, correct?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 04:57:55 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2012, 11:30:54 PM »

Wouldn't the French Heritage DNA Project be the best bet to find DF49 prospects? There are French DF23+ samples, so DF49+, DF23- should be French, correct?

Is that a sincere question?  We already know we have a lot of DF23+ M222- people from Wales (& Britain in general), Ireland and France. DF49+ DF23- people could easily be from the vicinity.

I don't think we can make generalizations (EDIT: with so little data) about haplogroup findings by geographies so close to each other as Britain and France.

This is why we have to test, to find out who is where.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 09:05:42 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2012, 08:17:32 AM »

It was a sincere question and suggestion. How would the DF23, M222- people have made it to France from the Isles? I started a thread about DF23, M222- from SW Britain accounting for some of the French results, but I don't believe it was well received. This has never been accepted logic. On the other hand, a subclade moving from France to the Isles is very much accepted. Also, I thnk Alan was saying something about each French result representing 100s more in actual numbers.
Alan and Jean will give us a better idea as to where DF23, M222- oroginated. I believe Jean has M222 as a La Tene marker, so she would really have DF49 on the Continent.

However, if DF23, M222- originated in France, as it seems it must, then DF49, DF23- must have also originated in France, so the French Heritage Project would be the finest place to mine testers.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2012, 08:58:47 AM »

Wouldn't the French Heritage DNA Project be the best bet to find DF49 prospects? There are French DF23+ samples, so DF49+, DF23- should be French, correct?

Is that a sincere question?  

It was a sincere question and suggestion. How would the DF23, M222- people have made it to France from the Isles? ...
However, if DF23, M222- originated in France, as it seems it must, then DF49, DF23- must have also originated in France, so the French Heritage Project would be the finest place to mine testers.

The reason I ask if this is a sincere question is I want to know if you personally really think DF23+ M222- originated in France.  I don't know. I think it might have, but it might have originated in the Isles. I wouldn't say Benelux or Germany should be entirely ruled out either. You ask a question about movement from France to the Isles but you make a statement in contradiction, that France must be the origination. Just because you add questions marks around points you are trying to make, does not mean you are not trying to make point.

Do you think DF23+ M222- originated in France?

As far as your question about how people might have made it to France from the Isles, I think think the answer is very simple, which is I wonder why you asked it.  Then English Channel is only 21 miles wide at some points so it would have been relatively easy to cross by boat. Some people have even swam across it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_successful_English_Channel_swimmers
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 09:03:03 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2012, 10:36:08 AM »

DF23 MUST have originated in France, because there are French results. And as Alan has stated, each French results represents hundreds of actual results. Even if there are more DF23 in the Isles, frequency doesn't mean origin. This have been beaten to death on this and other forums. Frequency doesn't mean origin, frequency doesn't mean origin, frequency doesn't mean origin! Not even with DF23!

DF23 originated in France. My own line of DF23 originated in Italy with Bonnet's family.

Mike, if Jean says M222 is a La Tene marker, how could DF23 possibly have originated in the Isles?

If DF23 moved from the Isles to France, Alan and Jean would both be able to tell you about the discovery of a pot or pan found in the dirt. You need to be able to show a Culture that moved from the Isles to France and the movement from Wales and Cornwall to Brittany doesn't work.... I already tried it.

So yes, I believe DF23 originated in France.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 10:53:49 AM by eochaidh » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2012, 11:04:41 AM »

DF23 MUST have originated in France, because there are French results. And as Alan has stated, each French results represents hundreds of actual results. Even if there are more DF23 in the Isles, frequency doesn't mean origin. This have been beaten to death on this and other forums. Frequency doesn't mean origin, frequency doesn't mean origin, frequency doesn't mean origin! Not even with DF23!

DF23 originated in France. My own line of DF23 originated in Italy with Bonnet's family.

Mike, if Jean says M222 is a La Tene marker, how could DF23 possibly have originated in the Isles?

If DF23 moved from the Isles to France, Alan and Jean would both be able to tell you about the discovery of a pot or pan found in the dirt. You need to be able to show a Culture that moved from the Isles to France and the movement from Wales and Cornwall to Brittany doesn't work.... I already tried it.

So yes, I believe DF23 originated in France. This forum and others have long since sold their souls to Alan and Jean, it's too late to go back now.

I actually have never said DF23 originated in France.  I dont know but it is one option.  The only L21 clade I think its pretty clear was not an isles Celtic thing is Df13 negative L21.  There are two lines, one of which is very overrepresented given sample size in Atlantic France.  The other seems rather English.  

As for my comment about a hit from France being worth a hundred on the isles, that is just simple maths not an opinion.  if you get 10 out of a sample of 500 then that is 2% while if you get 10 out of 50 that is 20%.  Thats not the actual figures but I did ask and it was something akin to that sort of thing.  Totals are worth meaningless until they can be converted into percentages.

Just for clarrity, I believe L21 (and therfore L21XDF13) originated in France but I have no fixed options on most downstream clades such as DF23, DF21 etc. The data is just too thin outside the isles to conclude.   My interest remains at the root of L21 and upstream of it, not with downstream clades. My main interest remains how did L21 get to the isles, how did L11 get to western Europe and where were the pre-European roots of L11 i.e L23, M269 and upstream. I would probably be interested in the within-isles early development of L21 too and something like DF21 is probably part of that story.  I dont have any opinion on DF23 although I understand it is older than DF21 and could either be continental or an early isles line.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 11:06:54 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2012, 11:48:22 AM »

Alan, I never said that you stated that DF23 originated in France.

Alan, my DF23 line is from Piedmont, Italy though Bonnet's family. What is the archaeological evidence that would show a movement that could have brought DF23 from the Isles to Piedmont, Italy?

But, back on the topic of DF49, I still think that the French Heritage DNA Project would be the place to look for testers. Even if DF23 might not have originated in France, DF49 must have!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 12:36:47 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2012, 01:05:51 PM »

DF23 MUST have originated in France, because there are French results. And as Alan has stated, each French results represents hundreds of actual results. Even if there are more DF23 in the Isles, frequency doesn't mean origin. This have been beaten to death on this and other forums. Frequency doesn't mean origin, frequency doesn't mean origin, frequency doesn't mean origin! Not even with DF23!

DF23 originated in France. My own line of DF23 originated in Italy with Bonnet's family.

Mike, if Jean says M222 is a La Tene marker, how could DF23 possibly have originated in the Isles?

If DF23 moved from the Isles to France, Alan and Jean would both be able to tell you about the discovery of a pot or pan found in the dirt. You need to be able to show a Culture that moved from the Isles to France and the movement from Wales and Cornwall to Brittany doesn't work.... I already tried it.

So yes, I believe DF23 originated in France.

I'll take you at your word that this is what you believe. If so, it is a silly question to ask the below.
It was a sincere question and suggestion. How would the DF23, M222- people have made it to France from the Isles? ...
They might have already been there, according to your belief.

Mike, if Jean says M222 is a La Tene marker, how could DF23 possibly have originated in the Isles?

Is this a sincere question? I don't believe Jean has a hard core, absolute claim, or anything close to that, that M222 is a La Tene marker. She generally cautions her suppositions with words like "tentative" or "perhaps". She also could just plain be wrong, as we all can. Your question is couched in such a way that Jean's statement is believed to be absolutely authoritative. It just doesn't look too sincere. That's okay, but it is not really humorous.

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eochaidh
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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2012, 01:25:54 PM »

When I asked the question, "How would DF23, M222- people made to France from the Isles?" I was asking it as a way of showing that it was impossible. Obvioulsly, it is possible in the sense that a person could have gotten into a boat and made the crossing, but over the years I have asked over and over again about small family and group cossings and been told that only large Cultural Movements account foe the movement of Subclades.

Unless a pot, a pan, a brooch, a drinking cup or something that can be identified exclusively with the Isles is found in France corresponding to the age of DF49 or DF23, then it has to be concluded that DF49 and DF23 originated in France.

In an old thread about M222 being a La Tene marker, it seemed that you and others completely bought the idea. I believe you even pointed out that M222 was found in Germany which is the origin of La Tene. Is there any archaeological evidence showing M222 going from the Islses to Germany? Of course not. Therefore it must have been the other way around with La Tene.

What are some of your ideas of the large cultural flows from the Isles that would have brought DF49, DF23, and for that matter, M222 to the Continent? Where are the pots and pans?

EDIT: Mike, I think it was you who started a thread once about M222 being from Bavaria. Am I correct?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 01:41:09 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2012, 01:44:41 PM »

... In an old thread about M222 being a La Tene marker, it seemed that you and others completely bought the idea. I believe you even pointed out that M222 was found in Germany which is the origin of La Tene. Is there any archaeological evidence showing M222 going from the Islses to Germany? Of course not. Therefore it must have been the other way around with La Tene.

Please do not paraphrase me. I don't think it is an accurate representation when you say "completely bought the idea." If you want to quote me, that's okay. I'll just ask you to include the context in the conversation. No paraphrasing, please.

... Not that I wouldn't consider that M222 could have originated in a La Tene culture. Of course I would consider it, and even try to inspire a debate on it.

What are some of your ideas of the large cultural flows from the Isles that would have brought DF49, DF23, and for that matter, M222 to the Continent? Where are the pots and pans?

I am aware of some historical migrations from the Isles to the Continent, as I think you've pointed out in the past.  As far as the archaeology goes, I don't know, other than the Bell Beakers were all over the seas and waterways in Western Europe so I would expect at least some bi-directional movement.

Quote from: eochaid
EDIT: Mike, I think it was you who started a thread once about M222 being from Bavaria. Am I correct?

Miles, dig it up! but please start another topic if you want to talk about M222 and Bavaria. Please no general implications of associating topics and posters. Dig up the specifics you want to, that's fine.

Do some homework and start your own topic.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 01:50:32 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2012, 05:44:05 PM »

I said, it "seemed" like you and others bought it completely.

All I said at the start of all this was that I think the French Heritage DNA Project would be a good place to look for DF49, DF23-  I still believe that's true.

My DF23 originated in Italy and there are several other French DF23+, M222- results. Each of those results equals around 100 Isles results, so it seems very likely that DF23+ and DF49+ have their origin in France. Then again, maybe someone can show a Cultural Movement from the Isles that would counter that.

Let me just leave it at my suggestion to check with the French Heritage DNA Project.
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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2012, 06:06:44 PM »

 I'm wrong. My apologies. Don't check with the French Heritage DNA Project for DF49=, DF23- results. It was a dumb idea on my part.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2012, 10:41:30 PM »

Here are the STR based varieties that appear (so far) to be DF49*. The GD is the GD at 67 to the modal for this particular group.

f134461___ Byrne__________ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=18__ Ireland
f139489___ Cabe___________ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=14__ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Dublin
f140524___ Cain___________ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=xx__ Isle of Man (in Irish Sea near Scotland)
f188270___ Gillespie______ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=17__ zzzUnkOrigin
f122765___ Greaves________ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=13__ zzzUnkOrigin
f145676___ Hamilton ______ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=xx__ Ireland
f129036___ Harrison_______ R-L21/DF13/DF49*______________ 49-1226______________ GD=16__ England, North West, Cheshire
f31795____ Hopkins________ R-L21/DF13____________________ 49-1226______________ GD=12__ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo, Crimlin
f33932____ Hopkins________ R-L21/DF13/DF49*______________ 49-1226______________ GD=12__ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo, Derrylahan
f183161___ Hopkins________ R-L21/DF13____________________ 49-1226______________ GD=11__ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo, Ross West
f232424___ Hopkins________ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=12__ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo, Swineford
f19499____ Hopkins________ R-L21/DF13/DF49_______________ 49-1226______________ GD=18__ zzCountry
f127552___ McCabe_________ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=18__ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo
f218322___ McCabe_________ R-L21/DF13/DF49_______________ 49-1226______________ GD=16__ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Fermanagh, Rosslea
f827______ McCabe_________ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=17__ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone
f148651___ McCabe ________ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=14__ Ireland
f117117___ Holladay_______ R-L21/DF13/DF49*______________ 49 - unassigned______ GD=18__ England, South West, Gloucestershire, Chalford
f246749___ McElrea________ zzL21predicted________________ 49 - unassigned______ GD=14__ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Dunmullen
f223687___ McElrea________ zzL21predicted________________ 49 - unassigned______ GD=17__ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Dunmullen
f216031___ McElrea________ R-L21/DF13/DF49*______________ 49 - unassigned______ GD=18__ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Omagh, Parish of Cappagh
f137198___ McManus/Henry__ R-L21_________________________ 49-1226______________ GD=13__ zzzUnkOrigin
f171267___ Riddle_________ zzL21predicted________________ 49-1214______________ GD=21__ Ireland, Ulster
f131386___ Riddle_________ zzL21predicted________________ 49-1214______________ GD=18__ Ireland
f207371___ Riddle_________ zzL21predicted________________ 49-1214______________ GD=20__ Scotland
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 10:44:50 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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David Mc
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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2012, 01:10:31 AM »

Exciting to see the list growing!

Mike. Is the 49-1214 designation one that you've given to the Riddles in particular or does it tie in with some larger grouping who you are presuming to be DF49*?

Also, would the Lunneys (ftdna 159023 and 159024) be likely candidates for DF49*? I'm not sure what the GD is between them and the McElreas, but they seem to have some commonalities. At this point, I think they've only tested for R-L21, though.
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« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2012, 01:10:32 AM »

DF49 was placed on the ISOGG tree (from Investigation) yesterday:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2012, 10:43:18 AM »

DF49 was placed on the ISOGG tree (from Investigation) yesterday:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Cool, and to think that less than a month or so ago, some thought DF49 was redundant... but our citizen-scientists knew better.
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David Mc
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« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2012, 04:29:33 PM »

I just got my results back (kit 216031) and I'm L319.1- and L302-. I guess there's nowhere else to go test-wise for now. I am DF49* (or DF49**?).
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 06:49:27 PM by David Mc » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2012, 06:48:01 PM »

Interesting to see that we've been joined by a Stedman, as well-- and one who seems to be more closely matched to the McElrea signature. I'm not sure what the actual GD is between us, but it's close enough to be somewhat surprising to me. What has Shropshire to do with Co. Tyrone?
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« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2012, 06:52:50 PM »

Interesting to see that we've been joined by a Stedman, as well-- and one who seems to be more closely matched to the McElrea signature. I'm not sure what the actual GD is between us, but it's close enough to be somewhat surprising to me. What has Shropshire to do with Co. Tyrone?

No idea but if you PM me we can discus it, tomorrow though it's getting late here :)
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« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2012, 07:46:11 PM »

Fantastic! I hadn't had a chance to read the other threads earlier. Congratulations.. and you are pm'ed sir!
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« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2012, 06:04:26 PM »

Alan, I never said that you stated that DF23 originated in France.

Alan, my DF23 line is from Piedmont, Italy though Bonnet's family. What is the archaeological evidence that would show a movement that could have brought DF23 from the Isles to Piedmont, Italy?

But, back on the topic of DF49, I still think that the French Heritage DNA Project would be the place to look for testers. Even if DF23 might not have originated in France, DF49 must have!

The Green Hills of Tyrol

There was a soldier, a Scottish soldier
Who wandered far away, and soldiered far away
There was non bolder, with good broad shoulder
He's fought in many a fray, and fought and won.
He's seen the glory, and told the story
Of battles glorious, and deeds victorious
But now he's sighing, his heart is crying
To leave these green hills ofTyrol
Because these green hills are not highland hills,
Or the island hills, they're not my land's hills
And fair as these green foreign hills may be
They are not the hills of home... :)


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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2012, 04:28:17 AM »

Alan, I never said that you stated that DF23 originated in France.

Alan, my DF23 line is from Piedmont, Italy though Bonnet's family. What is the archaeological evidence that would show a movement that could have brought DF23 from the Isles to Piedmont, Italy?

But, back on the topic of DF49, I still think that the French Heritage DNA Project would be the place to look for testers. Even if DF23 might not have originated in France, DF49 must have!

The Green Hills of Tyrol

There was a soldier, a Scottish soldier
Who wandered far away, and soldiered far away
There was non bolder, with good broad shoulder
He's fought in many a fray, and fought and won.
He's seen the glory, and told the story
Of battles glorious, and deeds victorious
But now he's sighing, his heart is crying
To leave these green hills ofTyrol
Because these green hills are not highland hills,
Or the island hills, they're not my land's hills
And fair as these green foreign hills may be
They are not the hills of home... :)


What a beautiful highland ballad. It reminds me of the scene in Kubricks, Barry Lyndon where the hapless Barry captures the heart of the beautiful Lischen, although the scene is different from the original Thackery novel.
I am sure there are traces of Isles DNA on the continent from the many regiments who fought there.

"Do not think me very cruel and heartless, ladies; this heart of Lischen's was like many a town in the neighbourhood in which she dwelt, and had been stormed and occupied several times before I came to invest it; now mounting French colours, now green and yellow Saxon, now black and white Prussian, as the case may be. A lady who sets her heart upon a lad in uniform must prepare to change lovers pretty quickly, or her life will be but a sad one."

http://john-likes-movies.blogspot.de/2012/04/barry-lyndon-review.html

http://www.medellindigital.gov.co/Mediateca/repositorio%20de%20recursos/Thackeray,%20William%20Makepeace/Thackeray_William%20Makepeace-Barry%20Lyndon.pdf

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/flight-of-the-earls-wild-geese/
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 05:07:55 AM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
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« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2012, 05:12:35 AM »

I count 28 DF49 tests on my Pending Lab Results page and four more on my Pending Shipment to lab page.
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Jdean
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« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2012, 09:43:18 AM »

I count 28 DF49 tests on my Pending Lab Results page and four more on my Pending Shipment to lab page.

Good news, hopefully we should pick up a few more soon.

So far there's not that much to go on with identifying DF49 candidates, I'm beginning to wonder if 'appears to match people who are L21 neg' could be used as a cluster modal :)

This is the new DF49 project at FTDNA

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49

Not much to talk about at the moment, but from little acorns !!
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 09:44:07 AM by Jdean » Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

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