R1b-L21: the DF49* paragroup under DF13

[David Mc]

Thanks for your work in setting up this new project, jdean. I look forward to seeing what patterns emerge.

[rms2]

I count 28 DF49 tests on my Pending Lab Results page and four more on my Pending Shipment to lab page.

Good news, hopefully we should pick up a few more soon.

So far there's not that much to go on with identifying DF49 candidates, I'm beginning to wonder if 'appears to match people who are L21 neg' could be used as a cluster modal :)

This is the new DF49 project at FTDNA

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49

Not much to talk about at the moment, but from little acorns !!

Looks very nice! It will grow, as you said, like a mighty oak from a small acorn.

[Jdean]

I count 28 DF49 tests on my Pending Lab Results page and four more on my Pending Shipment to lab page.

Good news, hopefully we should pick up a few more soon.

So far there's not that much to go on with identifying DF49 candidates, I'm beginning to wonder if 'appears to match people who are L21 neg' could be used as a cluster modal :)

This is the new DF49 project at FTDNA

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49

Not much to talk about at the moment, but from little acorns !!

Looks very nice! It will grow, as you said, like a mighty oak from a small acorn.

I have great hopes.

 I learnt of an order tonight that's very dear to me, fingers crossed !!

[eochaidh]

I count 28 DF49 tests on my Pending Lab Results page and four more on my Pending Shipment to lab page.

Good news, hopefully we should pick up a few more soon.

So far there's not that much to go on with identifying DF49 candidates, I'm beginning to wonder if 'appears to match people who are L21 neg' could be used as a cluster modal :)

This is the new DF49 project at FTDNA

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49

Not much to talk about at the moment, but from little acorns !!

I know I wouldn't want me in a group, but I was the first public guy to be found DF23+, M222-, so I've joined the group. Be certain, though, I don't even like me.

I've already called security on myself....

And, thank you for starting the Project.

[Jdean]

I count 28 DF49 tests on my Pending Lab Results page and four more on my Pending Shipment to lab page.

Good news, hopefully we should pick up a few more soon.

So far there's not that much to go on with identifying DF49 candidates, I'm beginning to wonder if 'appears to match people who are L21 neg' could be used as a cluster modal :)

This is the new DF49 project at FTDNA

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49

Not much to talk about at the moment, but from little acorns !!

I know I wouldn't want me in a group, but I was the first public guy to be found DF23+, M222-, so I've joined the group. Be certain, though, I don't even like me.

I've already called security on myself....

And, thank you for starting the Project.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, it's good to have you on board !!

I'm sure we shall have lots to agree and disagree about DF49 :)

[Mikewww]

I count 28 DF49 tests on my Pending Lab Results page and four more on my Pending Shipment to lab page.

Good news, hopefully we should pick up a few more soon.

So far there's not that much to go on with identifying DF49 candidates, I'm beginning to wonder if 'appears to match people who are L21 neg' could be used as a cluster modal :)

This is the new DF49 project at FTDNA

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49

Not much to talk about at the moment, but from little acorns !!

Great work. Thanks for turning on your Y DNA SNP report.

Please request that DF49+ people also continue to stay in or join the L21 project as is appropriate. This makes it easier to track the group as a whole.

[Mikewww]

What do you think of this?

I found a guy that has several markers in common with
f44126 Garrett R-L21/DF13/DF49

fN15295 Lenzen has common off-modals of 390, 454, 447, H4, 576, 442 with Garrett. Lenzen also has a high 481, which is common among DF23 people.

fN15295   Peter Lenzen, b 1741 Walsdorf, Daun, Prussia

I think his Ysearch is 7SY4A.

He is in the German Language Area project and I can contact him. He has done zero SNP testing that I know of, but what should he test for?

L21, DF13, DF49, DF23? In what sequence?

[Dubhthach]

What do you think of this?

I found a guy that has several markers in common with
f44126 Garrett R-L21/DF13/DF49

fN15295 Lenzen has common off-modals of 390, 454, 447, H4, 576, 442 with Garrett. Lenzen also has a high 481, which is common among DF23 people.

fN15295   Peter Lenzen, b 1741 Walsdorf, Daun, Prussia

I think his Ysearch is 7SY4A.

He is in the German Language Area project and I can contact him. He has done zero SNP testing that I know of, but what should he test for?

L21, DF13, DF49, DF23? In what sequence?

I would venture for DF13 first, obviously if he's DF13 negative then test L21. If however he's DF13+ then test DF49 followed by DF23 (if DF49+).

-Paul
(DF41+)

[Jdean]

What do you think of this?

I found a guy that has several markers in common with
f44126 Garrett R-L21/DF13/DF49

fN15295 Lenzen has common off-modals of 390, 454, 447, H4, 576, 442 with Garrett. Lenzen also has a high 481, which is common among DF23 people.

fN15295   Peter Lenzen, b 1741 Walsdorf, Daun, Prussia

I think his Ysearch is 7SY4A.

He is in the German Language Area project and I can contact him. He has done zero SNP testing that I know of, but what should he test for?

L21, DF13, DF49, DF23? In what sequence?

I would venture for DF13 first, obviously if he's DF13 negative then test L21. If however he's DF13+ then test DF49 followed by DF23 (if DF49+).

-Paul
(DF41+)

Exactly what I was about to say :)

BTW another DF49* has turned up

MURRAY kit no. 213636


Another with out any matches who are DF49, actually he lacks matches who are anything !!

[Mikewww]

What about this guy?

f96218 Pierre Grenon, b.c.1620, France

He has a lot of common off-modals with the following that I'm pretty sure are DF23* (or at least DF49*) types:
f41836   Fancher
f90660   Johnston
f37464   Johnston
f208550   Dyer
f165676   Dyer
f70979   Dyer
f137136   Gale
f122016   Honeycutt
f60472   Pugh
f128257   Pugh
f108037   Pugh
f189772   Pugh
f185074   Pugh

f96218 Grenon kind of fits into each of these three STR Signatures:
49-23-1421
49-23-2123
49-23-21-HyM

This is exactly what you might expect in a situation of distantly related people. It would make sense these three varieties have some common STRs beyond being probably DF23*.

I can email the guy from the German project but I can't find an email ID or Ysearch for Grenon. RMS2, you have good contacts with the French, right?

[rms2]

What about this guy?

f96218 Pierre Grenon, b.c.1620, France

He has a lot of common off-modals with the following that I'm pretty sure are DF23* (or at least DF49*) types:
f41836   Fancher
f90660   Johnston
f37464   Johnston
f208550   Dyer
f165676   Dyer
f70979   Dyer
f137136   Gale
f122016   Honeycutt
f60472   Pugh
f128257   Pugh
f108037   Pugh
f189772   Pugh
f185074   Pugh

f96218 Grenon kind of fits into each of these three STR Signatures:
49-23-1421
49-23-2123
49-23-21-HyM

This is exactly what you might expect in a situation of distantly related people. It would make sense these three varieties have some common STRs beyond being probably DF23*.

I can email the guy from the German project but I can't find an email ID or Ysearch for Grenon. RMS2, you have good contacts with the French, right?

Well, I try to. I get along well with the guys who run the French Heritage Project.

I don't see him in that project. Where did you find him?

[Mikewww]

What about this guy?

f96218 Pierre Grenon, b.c.1620, France

He has a lot of common off-modals with the following that I'm pretty sure are DF23* (or at least DF49*) types:
f41836   Fancher
f90660   Johnston
f37464   Johnston
f208550   Dyer
f165676   Dyer
f70979   Dyer
f137136   Gale
f122016   Honeycutt
f60472   Pugh
f128257   Pugh
f108037   Pugh
f189772   Pugh
f185074   Pugh

f96218 Grenon kind of fits into each of these three STR Signatures:
49-23-1421
49-23-2123
49-23-21-HyM

This is exactly what you might expect in a situation of distantly related people. It would make sense these three varieties have some common STRs beyond being probably DF23*.

I can email the guy from the German project but I can't find an email ID or Ysearch for Grenon. RMS2, you have good contacts with the French, right?

Well, I try to. I get along well with the guys who run the French Heritage Project.

I don't see him in that project. Where did you find him

Right underneath our L96 guy, Gontaut/Drake.

GOODNOW (R-M269)
96218    Goodnow    Pierre Grenon b. around 1620

Grenon appears to be the real MDKA name.
U

[rms2]

What about this guy?

f96218 Pierre Grenon, b.c.1620, France

He has a lot of common off-modals with the following that I'm pretty sure are DF23* (or at least DF49*) types:
f41836   Fancher
f90660   Johnston
f37464   Johnston
f208550   Dyer
f165676   Dyer
f70979   Dyer
f137136   Gale
f122016   Honeycutt
f60472   Pugh
f128257   Pugh
f108037   Pugh
f189772   Pugh
f185074   Pugh

f96218 Grenon kind of fits into each of these three STR Signatures:
49-23-1421
49-23-2123
49-23-21-HyM

This is exactly what you might expect in a situation of distantly related people. It would make sense these three varieties have some common STRs beyond being probably DF23*.

I can email the guy from the German project but I can't find an email ID or Ysearch for Grenon. RMS2, you have good contacts with the French, right?

Well, I try to. I get along well with the guys who run the French Heritage Project.

I don't see him in that project. Where did you find him

Right underneath our L96 guy, Gontaut/Drake.

GOODNOW (R-M269)
96218    Goodnow    Pierre Grenon b. around 1620

Grenon appears to be the real MDKA name.
U

Okay, I see him now.

I sent the Group Admin of the French Heritage Project an email to forward to Mr. Goodnow regarding this.

[Mikewww]

What do you think of this guy in the Cumberland Gap project?

f233080   Cornelius Durham b.c.1775, England

He could be distantly related to the 49-23-21-HyM guys, in other words he might be DF23* or at least DF49*.

He has the high 481=25 to go with 413a=22 570>=19 . He has the 406s1=11 of f108030   Trainor, who is Hy-Maine STR signature.

..... Or these guys?

f11217 Gaetano C Basile, b.1845 Sicily, Italy
f194063 Nathan McCollister, b.c. 1795,  Dorc. - Som. MD
f197914 Charles Mitchell, b.1786, Ireland

They too have a high 481 and have a strong signature of 390=23 437=14 464=15,15,16,17 570>=18 406s1=11 511=9 534=14 481=24 446=14.  I think have to create a new variety for something with that many off-modals in common.

I'll make sure they all are in the spreadsheet.

[rms2]

There were 14 DF49 results this morning, all negative.

[Jdean]

There were 14 DF49 results this morning, all negative.

Cheers Rich

I could see there were 14 new results from Ymap but couldn't tell if they were all in the L21 project since my DF49 files are on my new laptop which has suffered a technical setback, I left the charger at Somerset RO on Wednesday :)

Never mind I'll have it back Sunday and shall be back up to speed, hopefully we shall have a few more results in by then !!

[Mikewww]

I went looking for DF49* and DF23* but I think I mostly just found M222+ people, and lots of them.

Anyway, the next posting of the R1b-L21 Haplotypes spreadsheet will have more suspects of these people.

[Jdean]

I went looking for DF49* and DF23* but I think I mostly just found M222+ people, and lots of them.

Anyway, the next posting of the R1b-L21 Haplotypes spreadsheet will have more suspects of these people.

DF49 x M222 is a tricky one and no mistake, I almost wasn't joking when I said I was thinking of producing a cluster value out of 'appears to match L21 neg folks more closely than L21 plus' :)

[Jdean]

We had another DF49+ result in last night and one that was of particular interest to me, Jim Thompson kit no. 86522 !!!

I've been emailing people in Jim's Thompson group for over three yrs now and if anything interesting had turned up in my WTY they would have been one of the people I'd have contacted about it. Just under two yrs ago Jim agreed to a deep clade test (based on my observations) in which he was found to be L21*and now we have the much more accurate DF49 result, I think I shall have a beer tonight :)

[rms2]

We had another DF49+ result in last night and one that was of particular interest to me, Jim Thompson kit no. 86522 !!!

I've been emailing people in Jim's Thompson group for over three yrs now and if anything interesting had turned up in my WTY they would have been one of the people I'd have contacted about it. Just under two yrs ago Jim agreed to a deep clade test (based on my observations) in which he was found to be L21*and now we have the much more accurate DF49 result, I think I shall have a beer tonight :)

Congratulations! Have two or three!

[Jdean]

We had another DF49+ result in last night and one that was of particular interest to me, Jim Thompson kit no. 86522 !!!

I've been emailing people in Jim's Thompson group for over three yrs now and if anything interesting had turned up in my WTY they would have been one of the people I'd have contacted about it. Just under two yrs ago Jim agreed to a deep clade test (based on my observations) in which he was found to be L21*and now we have the much more accurate DF49 result, I think I shall have a beer tonight :)

Congratulations! Have two or three!

Thanks Rich, it's taken a long time to get this far !!

As an extra bonus I've just noticed one of the Thompsons has now upgraded to 111 :)

[Peter M]

New DF49+ M222- this weekend: 192660-Merril (37 marker profile). See the results sheet. Will send him a message inviting him to join the DF-49 project.

[Jdean]

New DF49+ M222- this weekend: 192660-Merril (37 marker profile). See the results sheet. Will send him a message inviting him to join the DF-49 project.

Cheers Peter

No idea how I managed to miss this fellow !!

Looking quickly he seems a good candidate for a cluster Mike calls 49-23-2224. This is a DF23 group so it would be interesting to see a result for that SNP also

This group looks like it could be quite a productive line of investigation.

[Peter M]

New DF49+ M222- this weekend: 192660-Merril (37 marker profile). See the results sheet. Will send him a message inviting him to join the DF-49 project.

Cheers Peter

No idea how I managed to miss this fellow !!

Looking quickly he seems a good candidate for a cluster Mike calls 49-23-2224. This is a DF23 group so it would be interesting to see a result for that SNP also

This group looks like it could be quite a productive line of investigation.

192660-Merril appears to have a good match to 137235-Caldwell and he (Caldwell) is DF23+, so Merril might learn more from a DF23 test.

I'm not sure about the others in Mike's 49-23-2224 cluster. I'm not even sure I understand that cluster. Apparently I'm missing something.

[Mark Jost]

Hi have a guy named Henderson f160798 who I have been working with and I was wondering if he should test for DF49? (There are more in the Henderson project as they have a CDY 36,36 and 385B 15, 460-10 and more.)

fN26081   Caldwell   R1b-L21   49-23-2224
f123987   Caldwell   zzL21suspect   49-23-2224
f79710   Carll   R1b-L21   49-23-2224
f160798   Henderson   R1b-L21>DF13   zzDF13unassigned
f102517   Henderson   R1b-L21   zzL21unassigned
f77763   Henderson    R1b-L21   zzL21unassigned
f82717   Taylor   R1b-L21   49-23-2224

Thanks,

MJost