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Author Topic: New P312 SNPs associated with L238  (Read 1817 times)
GoldenHind
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« on: August 27, 2012, 02:54:03 PM »

I have maintained for some time that there is almost certainly at least one, and more likely several undiscovered SNPs between P312 and L238.
I have recently been informed that 1000 Genomes researcher GregRM has discovered a second L238 individual in the GBR samples, and that a comparison of the two shows they share 8 further SNPs in addition to L238. Unfortunately they have not been found in any other sample there, so at this point there is no way to tell if they are above, below or equivalent to L238. There are a few people looking into this, and I hope there may be further developments in the near future.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2012, 03:03:06 PM »

Excuse my ignorance, Goldenhind. What is GBR??
Bob
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2012, 03:35:23 PM »

G[reat]BR[itain]
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Maliclavelli


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Castlebob
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« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2012, 03:37:23 PM »

Aaah! I thought we'd be GB or UK here.
Thanks,
Bob
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2012, 03:44:16 PM »

Perhaps G[reat] B[ritain] R[epublic]
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 03:44:43 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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GoldenHind
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« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2012, 08:34:04 PM »

Excuse my ignorance, Goldenhind. What is GBR??
Bob
It is merely the code the project used for its samples from Britain.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2012, 02:31:21 AM »

I have maintained for some time that there is almost certainly at least one, and more likely several undiscovered SNPs between P312 and L238.
I have recently been informed that 1000 Genomes researcher GregRM has discovered a second L238 individual in the GBR samples, and that a comparison of the two shows they share 8 further SNPs in addition to L238. Unfortunately they have not been found in any other sample there, so at this point there is no way to tell if they are above, below or equivalent to L238. There are a few people looking into this, and I hope there may be further developments in the near future.
Do we know the surnames of the two you refer to, Goldenhind? The surnames I was given who are currently P-312** are six English - including one with a typical Scottish surname & one Anglo-Scottish Border. Another of that group of half-a-dozen has a surname which suggests a Celtic origin.
There is one with a typically Welsh surname.
A recent result is a Mexican, presumably of Spanish origin. Brief research suggests his surname MAY be of French origins.
I appreciate that surnames are probably somewhat irrelevant due to the timescales we're dealing with here, but I can't stop my curiosity getting the better of me.
Cheers,
Bob
PS I did wonder if 'GBR' was an anacronym for some scientific term! We generally use GB or UK, but our   teams sometimes use GBR. I did chuckle at someone's suggestion that the 'R' stood for 'Republic' . !
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 03:55:53 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2012, 03:20:44 AM »

I did chuckle at someone's suggestion that the 'R' stood for 'Republic' . !

Tuscan humour isn’t just the same like English one, but sometime they may be close.

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Maliclavelli


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Castlebob
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« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2012, 03:45:33 AM »

So it seems!
Bob
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
GoldenHind
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« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2012, 01:59:56 PM »

I have maintained for some time that there is almost certainly at least one, and more likely several undiscovered SNPs between P312 and L238.
I have recently been informed that 1000 Genomes researcher GregRM has discovered a second L238 individual in the GBR samples, and that a comparison of the two shows they share 8 further SNPs in addition to L238. Unfortunately they have not been found in any other sample there, so at this point there is no way to tell if they are above, below or equivalent to L238. There are a few people looking into this, and I hope there may be further developments in the near future.
Do we know the surnames of the two you refer to, Goldenhind? The surnames I was given who are currently P-312** are six English - including one with a typical Scottish surname & one Anglo-Scottish Border. Another of that group of half-a-dozen has a surname which suggests a Celtic origin.
There is one with a typically Welsh surname.
A recent result is a Mexican, presumably of Spanish origin. Brief research suggests his surname MAY be of French origins.
I appreciate that surnames are probably somewhat irrelevant due to the timescales we're dealing with here, but I can't stop my curiosity getting the better of me.
Cheers,
Bob
PS I did wonder if 'GBR' was an anacronym for some scientific term! We generally use GB or UK, but our   teams sometimes use GBR. I did chuckle at someone's suggestion that the 'R' stood for 'Republic' . !

Surnames aren't listed in the 1000 Genomes Project. The only thing we know about the two L238 samples there is that both are from Kent.
I think you are confusing L238 with the P312** individuals in the FTDNA P312 and Subclades Project. The latter are either tested or presumed L238-. Assuming some of these newly discovered SNPs are in fact between P312 and L238, they may or may not be found in one or more of those currently identified as P312**.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2012, 02:11:14 PM »

Thanks Goldenhind. I take your point.
Bob
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
GoldenHind
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« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2012, 02:38:57 PM »

Thanks Goldenhind. I take your point.
Bob

We just don't know at this point how many other SNPs below remain to be discovered. I am reasonably certain at least one, and probably several, are between P312 and L238. There most likely are others which have nothing to do with L238.
Some experts believe an SNP occurs on the Y/chromosome every two or three generations. If so, no one is really P312*. That designation only means their subclades directly below P312 remain undiscovered. I think it is extremely unlikely that that any Y line will have lgone on for some five thousand years since the initial P312 mutation without having another SNP mutation.
Nor do we have any idea of what the distribution of these subclades will be. 
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gcoldham
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« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2012, 02:51:43 AM »

I noticed that (below) you said " Surnames aren't listed in the 1000 Genomes Project. The only thing we know about the two L238 samples there is that both are from Kent."

On that topic, I wanted to know the identity (surname anyway) of one the Kent-origin 1000 Genomes participants  ""HG00159" who has a most interesting Y-signature. I was also told the test subjects are  anonymous. BUT, these individuals know who they are. Is there any chance (A) perhaps they will one day come forward voluntarily to declare themselves - or (B) that we will be able to pin down their SURNAME by matches to other surnames?
I hope so, as I would really like to know who this person is. If they are reading this- please DO contact me. Rgds, GCOLDHAM
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2012, 07:40:58 AM »

I noticed that (below) you said " Surnames aren't listed in the 1000 Genomes Project. The only thing we know about the two L238 samples there is that both are from Kent."

On that topic, I wanted to know the identity (surname anyway) of one the Kent-origin 1000 Genomes participants  ""HG00159" who has a most interesting Y-signature. I was also told the test subjects are  anonymous. BUT, these individuals know who they are. Is there any chance (A) perhaps they will one day come forward voluntarily to declare themselves - or (B) that we will be able to pin down their SURNAME by matches to other surnames?
I hope so, as I would really like to know who this person is. If they are reading this- please DO contact me. Rgds, GCOLDHAM

From what I understand, the participants will never know their results even if they wanted to.
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Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2012, 09:06:32 AM »

From what I understand, the participants will never know their results even if they wanted to.
But, of course, if I were one of the 51 Tuscans tested and I knew that I am (by other  tests) an R-L23*, I'd know that that Tuscan in 1KGP were I.
The same could do the people tested from other countries.
The tests are anonymous but should get the permission of the people tested.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 09:08:18 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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GoldenHind
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« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2012, 04:10:23 PM »

The number of new SNPs shared by by the two L238 individuals in the 1000 Genomes project has now grown from eight to ten, through the additional research of Vince T.

Two of these ten are now available for testing at FTDNA: Z2245 and Z2247.

Unfortunately it is still unknown whether these SNPs are located above or below L238, or are synonymous with L238. The only way to make this determination is through testing. If one or both of these SNPs are located between P312 and L238, then at least some of those who would otherwise be designated P312** (U152- L21- DF27- DF19 and L238-) will get a positive result. If located below L238, they should help further define a very interesting subclade. As from all appearances L238 is a comparatively recent SNP, I think there is a decent chance that one or both of these new SNPs will constitute a new subclade of P312.    
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 04:12:15 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
Castlebob
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« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2012, 07:23:08 AM »

That's interesting, Goldenhind.
I'll order those two now.
Bob
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
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