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Castlebob
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« on: August 24, 2012, 09:06:21 AM »

I've just heard a radio announcement saying that Richard III's remains have been found  under a car park in Leicester!. The authorities will probably hit him with a parking ticket!
I wonder if DNA can be obtained?
Cheers,
Bob
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2012, 10:54:32 AM »

Are you sure they were found? I'll I've read is that the dig started but that finding the remains will be a long shot. They also mention that if the remains are found, they will be DNA analyzed...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-19361350
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Castlebob
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2012, 11:06:21 AM »

I knew nothing about the story until this afternoon, Richard. I  literally just heard a headline on the news, saying: "Richard III's bones have been found,  buried beneath a Leicester car park". It's a bit ambiguous, so guess the broadcaster have jumped the gun.
Even if they have found some remains, I think it'd be a leap of faith to trust that they were as described! Still, good that they are trying. As your link says, at least they're going to DNA test the find.
Cheers,
Bob
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Castlebob
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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2012, 04:04:02 AM »

Today's newspaper article reckons that the remains of Richard III should be identifiable as he was despatched in a particular way. It seems his armoured helmet was shattered so violently that many shards of metal were embedded in Richard's skull.
They also showed a photo of a descendant being swab-cheek DNA tested at the site of the excavation. If nothing else, let's hope the DNA from the descendant is released, regardless of who the reamins are of.
Cheers,
Bob
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gtc
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« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2012, 08:51:56 AM »

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10996.0
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glentane
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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 06:51:57 AM »

Press conference on Radio Five just now (11:06 BST), wheeled on Richard (oh yes) Buckley the chief digger to run through the survey and assessment. Ground-penetrating radar (car park very much required in use, by council's social workers and so on), a few keyholes/sondages onto what looked like solid stuff, "a high status building" (they always say that).
Looks like Greyfriars. Parallel masonry wall lines, tiling running off at a angle, he reckons cloister walk. Another got a wall-footing with that little stone benchy thing that usually denotes the chapter-house (or the adjacent warming-room, interjects glentane ). Means they can orientate themselves and target the high-rent zones (these high mediaeval religious foundations are in the main as rigidly identical in layout as any Roman fort. Stopped embarrassing night-time encounters by visiting clerics searching for the garderobe, I guess).

Curses! Silly radio people have cut it off for mere politics.

Ah. 11:17 am, we're back with a Mr Taylor from Leics. Uni. (sketchy paraphrase, not gospel)
 ... rigorous lab analysis req'd. We are NOT saying that we've found Dick3, but this skeleton exhibits characteristics that (missed that) further analysis. Shift to new phase, from archaeology to lab work. Tell you more in twelve weeks, kthxbai.

Bah. Suppose it'll all go quiet till (week 37+12=Hogmanay 2013).
So they've got substantial upstanding remains of what reasonable people would assume to be the old Friary, located some sort of fairly prominent (inhumation, or sarcophagus?), I assume among an absolute welter of other skeletal material both undisturbed and redeposited, think that on initial visual inspection that this set has some interesting and possibly indicative oddities apart from being male (trauma? deformity? ( .. kidding, all you Ric. III fans)) and it's off to the lab with it.  I think I heard DNA mentioned again.

I couldn't work out if they're just backfilling and walking away from the excavation. Sounds like it. There's no obvious threat, and they only got permission for a fortnight. Very much all their eggs in one basket then with this skeleton, unless they've got a load on standby that they haven't told us about yet.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2012, 07:09:03 AM »

Thanks Glenatane,
I think we've reached another 'remain patient' & 'fingers crossed' moment! Still, it's good to get a moment-by-moment account.
Good work. Your Press Pass is in the post!
Cheers,
Bob
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gtc
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2012, 09:01:17 AM »

Archaeologists searching for the grave of Richard III have said "strong circumstantial evidence" points to a skeleton being the lost king.

The English king died at the battle of Bosworth in 1485.

A dig under a council car park in Leicester has found remains with spinal abnormalities and a "cleaved-in skull" that suggest it could be Richard III.

The University of Leicester will now test the bones for DNA against descendants of Richard's family.

Professor Lin Foxhall, head of the university's School of Archaeology, said: "Archaeology almost never finds named individuals - this is absolutely extraordinary.

"Although we are far from certain yet, it is already astonishing."

A university spokesperson said the evidence included signs of a peri-mortem (near-death) trauma to the skull and a barbed iron arrow head in the area of the spine.

Richard is recorded by some sources as having been pulled from his horse and killed with a blow to the head.

The skeleton also showed severe scoliosis - a curvature of the spine.

Although not as pronounced as Shakespeare's portrayal of the king as a hunchback, the condition would have given the adult male the appearance of having one shoulder higher than the other.

The bones, believed to be well preserved, are undergoing DNA analysis. The tests will take about 12 weeks to complete.

Philippe Langley, from the Richard III Society, said: "It is such a tumult of emotions, I am shell-shocked.

"I just feel happy and sad and excited all at the same time. It is very odd."

As the defeated foe, Richard was given a low-key burial in the Franciscan friary of Greyfriars.

This was demolished in the 1530s, but documents describing the burial site have survived.

The excavation, which began on 25 August, has uncovered the remains of the cloisters and chapter house, as well as the church.

Work focused on the choir area, in the centre of the church, where it was indicated Richard was interred.

DNA will be extracted from the bones and tested against descendants of Richard's family.

If their identity is confirmed, Leicester Cathedral said it would work with the Royal Household, and with the Richard III Society, to ensure the remains were treated with dignity and respect and reburied with the appropriate rites and ceremonies of the church.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-19561018
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glentane
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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2012, 12:01:12 PM »

Quote
.. signs of a peri-mortem (near-death) trauma to the skull and a barbed iron arrow head in the area of the spine.
Richard is recorded by some sources as having been pulled from his horse and killed with a blow to the head.
The skeleton also showed severe scoliosis - a curvature of the spine.
Absolutely astonishing! Well done them. I'm sold, and I tend to be pretty hard-nosed about diggers and their reports.
I'd have originally guessed the chances of it being undisturbed being quite slim. In a funny way, Bluff King Hal's iconoclasm may well have saved it from later interference.
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gtc
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2012, 07:58:50 PM »

Reuters reports: "The team will compare samples from the skeletal remains with the DNA of a direct descendant of the king’s sister, Michael Ibsen, 55, a Canadian furniture maker who lives in London."

So seems the principal testing will be mtDNA -- which as we know is easier to recover that ancient Y-DNA.



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glentane
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2012, 09:52:46 PM »

So where does that take us? Knowing zero about royal genealogy, I've just been going crosseyed over Wikipedia and it seems to be

     Katheryn de Roet=John of Gaunt
                   |
       Joan Beaufort=Ralph Neville
                   |
         Cecily Neville=Richard Plantagenet
                   |
       Richard III Plantagenet

Kathryn being the child of a Fleming, Payn de Roet from Hainault (like John o' Gaunt's own mother Philippa (who in turn seems to have had some really exotic maternal heritage, unfortunately irrelevant to Richard's mtDNA)), and an unknown lady.

To tell the truth, I got kind of lost, due to the ridiculous quantities of criss-crossing and remarrying Nevilles, Beauchamps, and the odd Despenser and Spanish nobility floating around old Dick Crookback's nearer kin, both agnatic and affinal.
Maybe someone who actually knows the ropes could decipher the genealogical implications of each sort of DNA test?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 10:12:49 PM by glentane » Logged
razyn
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« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2012, 11:25:56 PM »

There's a pretty informative story about this in The Washington Post today.  Pages 1 and 7 of the A section of the Sunday paper, Nov. 25, 2012.  Anthony Faiola gets the byline.
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Mitch Faulk
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2012, 10:11:20 AM »

ARE THERE ANY PLANTAGENET (FULK-FOULQUE) Y-DNA TESTED DESCENDANTS ON THE RECORD ?                                                                                                                                  _______________________Thanx,                                           MITCH FAULK                                                                           <faulkmitch77@gmail.com>                                                                                                      1 (478) 731-0592                                                                                                            Macon, Georgia
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glentane
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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2013, 04:52:56 PM »

OK university boffins, that's the twelve weeks up now. Got any results back yet?
All quiet on the DNA front for our man Richard, so far.
Yeh yeh I know what can happen. I'm still waiting on a single SNP test since August or July  (can't be bothered to check anymore, as the date just keeps on getting punted down the road).

Never mind, gives me time to read up on stuff, like this Plantagenet DNA site.
http://plantagenetdna.webs.com/richardiiisdna.htm
They've been on the case for years, so I imagine they won't easily let the archaeologists off the hook on this one :)
Most relieved that I wasn't talking through my chair when I fingered Kath de Roet as his great-granny.
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glentane
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« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2013, 06:46:12 AM »

Yay! Here we go
Dr Turi King swabbed the Mtdna suspect, Mr Ibsen.
http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/media-centre/richard-iii/old-content/images/CGB8724_5660_5680300.jpg/view
This *should* lead back to Ricky's big sis, Anne.

But "This is one of the shakiest parts of the project, relying as it does on historical records stretching back hundreds of years. The family tree linking Ibsen with Richard III's sister was made by historian John Ashdown-Hill. Kevin Schürer at Leicester University is leading the team assessing the historical evidence to try and corroborate Ibsen's genealogy.

"It's prudent to have a second set of eyes go over the tree and to use other historical data to try and verify it," says geneticist Turi King"

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22266-is-this-richard-iii-englands-last-plantagenet-king.html

I'm more than a bit dismayed that so far there's been no *overt* statement of a willingness to have a go at the Ydna and aDna. Of course the Y is notoriously fugitive and delicate, but even so, given the amount of money chucked at the project so far, I'm sure a whip-round among the Ricardophiles would find the necessary.

Although I have noticed that our more established landowning and aristocratic families are pretty bashful about testing in the lines affecting primogeniture and inheritance.
I'd have thought Plantagenet Ydna would sort out any number of historical puzzles. Well worth it.

OK here we go, BBC Radio Five
 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01qdzth
A quick line on the news just now that it's our boy.
More later, stay tuned.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2013, 07:07:16 AM »

Heard it on the car radio a fe minutes ago! The TV prog on Channel 4 (UK) should get increased  viewing figures as a result.
Anyone know what the mtDNA results was , or are they holding fire for the TV prog?
Have they tried for Y too?
Cheers,
Bob
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glentane
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« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2013, 07:08:52 AM »

So this is him then.
"Confirmed" (in their opinion)

http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/press-releases/2013/february/world2019s-first-image-of-grey-friars-skull-unveiled/image/image_view_fullscreen

They seem to have set the mandible up with no overbite (europeans have a quite pronounced one, in general), reflecting the slightly prognathous face of the official portrait. I'd always thought he just looked a bit (understandably) nervous, but maybe he couldn't help it.
http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/dn22266/dn22266-2_300.jpg

Dunno Bob, they're really milking it, aren't they?
More "in the next hour"
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gtc
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« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2013, 07:27:46 AM »

Heard it on the car radio a fe minutes ago! The TV prog on Channel 4 (UK) should get increased  viewing figures as a result.
Anyone know what the mtDNA results was , or are they holding fire for the TV prog?
Have they tried for Y too?
Cheers,
Bob

Re Y, I am advised that Prof Kevin Schurer (University of Leicester) stated in the press conference that they obtained Y-DNA samples from descendants of the Dukes of Beaufort for comparison with Richard III, but the analysis is in the early stages.

So, seems there is some hope of a Y result.
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glentane
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« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2013, 07:53:39 AM »

Re Y, I am advised that Prof Kevin Schurer (University of Leicester) stated in the press conference that they obtained Y-DNA samples from descendants of the Dukes of Beaufort for comparison with Richard III, but the analysis is in the early stages.

So, seems there is some hope of a Y result.
Oh, that's excellent news. Thanks.
Quote
... descendants in the male line from the House of Plantagenet through John of Gaunt and Edward III.
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gtc
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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2013, 10:16:06 AM »

Reportedly, the team has done a facial reconstruction of Richard and I thought that was also to be revealed today, but I haven't seen anything on that as yet.

It will be very interesting to compare what science shows against the well-known portrait that was painted years after his death.
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« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2013, 11:26:05 AM »

From http://www.livescience.com/26815-bones-king-richard-iii-found.html

"
 
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The remains of what may be King Richard III, showing a curved spine and signs of battle trauma.
CREDIT: University of Leicester
View full size image
The body of the lost and vilified English king Richard III has finally been found.

Archaeologists announced today (Feb. 4) that bones excavated from underneath a parking lot in Leicester, "beyond reasonable doubt," belong to the medieval king. Archaeologists announced the discovery of the skeleton in September. They suspected then they might have Richard III on their hands because the skeleton showed signs of the spinal disorder scoliosis, which Richard III likely had, and because battle wounds on the bones matched accounts of Richard III's death in the War of the Roses.

The announcement comes a day after the archaeologists had released an image of the king's battle-scarred skull.


To confirm the hunch, however, researchers at the University of Leicester conducted a series of tests, including extracting DNA from the teeth and a bone for comparison with Michael Ibsen, a modern-day descendant of Richard III's sister Anne of York.

Indeed, the researchers found the genetics matched up between Ibsen and that from the skeleton. "The DNA remains points to these being the remains of Richard III," University of Leicester genetics expert Turi King said during a press briefing.

The history of Richard III

Richard III was born in 1452 and ruled England from 1483 to 1485, a reign cut short by his death at the Battle of Bosworth Field, the decisive battle in the English civil war known as the War of the Roses. [See Images of the Skull & Search for Richard III's Grave]

Richard III's historical reputation is a twisted one, rife with accusations that he had his two young nephews murdered to secure his spot on the throne. The Shakespeare play "Richard III" cemented the king's villainous reputation about 100 years after the monarch died.

But Richard III's true legacy is a source of controversy. According to the Richard III Society, which has been involved in the archaeological search for the king's remains, many of the crimes Shakespeare attributes to Richard III are on shaky grounds. Even the deaths of the young princes remain in dispute.

After the king's death in battle, he was brought to Leicester and reportedly interred at the church of the Grey Friars, a location long lost to history. Unsubstantiated rumors sprung up around the missing grave, such as that Richard III's bones had been dug up and thrown in a river, or that his coffin was used as a horse-trough.

Relying on historical records, University of Leicester archaeologists began excavating a city council parking lot in Leicester in August 2012 in search of the Grey Friars church. They soon found medieval window frames, glazed floor tiles and roof fragments, suggesting that they were on the right track.

Shortly thereafter, the team unearthed human remains, including both a female skeleton (possibly an early church founder) and a male skeleton with a spine curved by scoliosis. The male skeleton's skull was cleaved with a blade, and a barbed metal arrowhead was lodged among the vertebrae of the upper back.

New discoveries

An analysis of the skeleton, ongoing ever since, revealed many characteristics consistent with Richard III, including that the man died in his late 20s or 30s (Richard III supposedly died at age 32), and he had a slender, "almost female build," said Jo Appleby, the University of Leicester's osteology expert. [Science of Death: 10 Tales from the Crypt & Beyond]

The man would've had so-called idiopathic adolescent-onset scoliosis, meaning the cause is unclear though the individual would have developed the disorder after age 10; the curvature would've put pressure on the man's heart and lungs and could've caused pain, Appleby said. However, unlike historical records would suggest, the skeleton of Richard III showed no signs of a withered arm.

Appleby and her colleagues found and examined 10 wounds on the skeleton, including eight on the skull. None of the wounds could have been inflicted after the body was buried, though some of the wounds are consistent with being post-mortem, possibly as a way to further humiliate the king in 1485, Appleby said.

What does the discovery mean for the king's villainous reputation?

"It will be a whole new era for Richard III," Lynda Pidgeon of the Richard III Society told the Associated Press. "It's certainly going to spark a lot more interest. Hopefully people will have a more open mind toward Richard."

Where will they be re-interred? The University of Leicester has jurisdiction over the remains, and said today the Richard III skeleton would be buried under Leicester Cathedral.

Other interested parties had voiced their own opinions: The Richard III Foundation and the Society of Friends of Richard III, based in York, England, argue the remains should be reburied in York, since the king was fond of that city. The Richard III Society has remained officially neutral. Meanwhile, some online petitions have argued the reburial should take place at Westminster Abbey or Windsor Castle."


Arrow in back, Welsh bowman maybe.
So is R3 getting a RC burial or is he posthumously now COE as well as a Mormon?
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glentane
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« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2013, 02:39:06 PM »

Well the Channel 4 prog was a good old Time-Team-style romp. Lots of "oooh could it be? Is it possible that?"
I had to cry off and get some kip when the live Q&A session came on after, so I don't know how that went.

Personally, hugely impressed by how hard the diggers must have beasted it, to shift all that demolition rubbish and Victorian see-arr-ay-pee, in less than 2 weeks, in the endless downpour of last year, even with the backhoe pitching in for the non-sensitive bits. And all for under ten grand.

Absolute buttons, in excavation terms, even with the unit being more or less on site, and the post-ex analysis (the slowest and priciest bit of any tender) being I guess basically free, thanks to the Uni, Hospital and so on pitching in on a prestige project.

Although I had to grin when poor Dr Jo the bone girl had to confess to caving the Royal Cranium in with a mattock. Hey, at least it wasn't in the face. Could have happened to anybody.
The skull was, absolutely miraculously, recovered intact, despite the obvious dodgy preservation of the lower skeleton in the (I assume) slimy stagnant bit of the grave pit (no sign of a coffin, just a hole in the clay in the ?choir? floor) whereas the head was carelessly and unexpectedly sat higher up in the fill, nicely drained.
Just unbelievable (but not in a bad way!). The odds against getting anything at all must have been incalculable. Lucky, lucky, lucky people.

The arrow is now deprecated, it seems. X-ray photos on closer inspection say bit of an old cut nail, maybe Roman debris re-incorporated in the grave cut. But somebody had stabbed him fairly ferociously in the a-hem-hem-hem, economy of hypothesis suggesting that rather than a random peri-mortem melee-wound, (he may have lost his helmet in the final scrum, but it's unlikely his tin pants would have come off until he was good and dead), it was inflicted as the stripped body was slung dead-or-alive style over a horse's hindquarters. Not a regular occurrence among the local clergy, or the elderly squirearchy who would be the sort of person normally afforded a high-rent berth in that part of the church.

The part I'd been jonesing for, the DNA analysis, was a bit of a flop. Drag in Mr Ibsen to see Turi King. "Yup, it's a match. 'Bye".    End of.
I mean what?, I mean I say I say boy (/foghorn). Hopefully more later? Much later. In obscure journals behind paywalls.   I can't wait ... :¬[
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glentane
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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2013, 02:51:14 PM »

Normally they play it safe on re-interments of excavated remains with a lovely fluffy Ecumenical bunfight, although I do hope the urge to sing "Kumbaya" to the thrumming of de-tuned acoustic guitars will be resisted.
I'm kind of hoping Buck House will do the decent thing and if not actually put their hands in the Royal Pockets, at least offer some sort of protocol.
There's a new Archbish of Canterbury, maybe he could figure out what the proper form is for this sort of thing. Reinterment of suspected child-murderer and likely intended usurper from defeated preceding dynasty (but two), who still happens to be One's relative (Her's, not the Bish), and an anointed Monarch of this Realm, after all is said and done, that is. Hmm, tricky ...
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gtc
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2013, 08:05:22 PM »

Reportedly, Mr Ibsen's mtDNA haplogroup is J. I guess we'll have to wait for a paper to learn subclade.

Apparently Richard's teeth are in pretty good condition so hopefully some usable Y DNA can be obtained from those.

I'm told that the haplogroup of the Beuafort descendants (against which Richard's Y is to be tested) has not been revealed, presumably for privacy reasons. If they do get a match with Richard I hope we are told his haplogroup.

As for a burial ceremony, I gather that the official attitude from Buckingham Palace is "nothing to see here", so I suppose it will be up to the Godsquad to work that one out.

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« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2013, 02:51:59 AM »

Normally they play it safe on re-interments of excavated remains with a lovely fluffy Ecumenical bunfight, although I do hope the urge to sing "Kumbaya" to the thrumming of de-tuned acoustic guitars will be resisted.
I'm kind of hoping Buck House will do the decent thing and if not actually put their hands in the Royal Pockets, at least offer some sort of protocol.
There's a new Archbish of Canterbury, maybe he could figure out what the proper form is for this sort of thing. Reinterment of suspected child-murderer and likely intended usurper from defeated preceding dynasty (but two), who still happens to be One's relative (Her's, not the Bish), and an anointed Monarch of this Realm, after all is said and done, that is. Hmm, tricky ...

Are you telling me my (forced) reading of Jacqueline Tey was wrong??? R3 was an innocent! Surely R3 was innocent about the nephews.
I know Twdr & the vile offspring were a murderous cult (they each killed more englishmen than christie & sayers combined) .

As far as acoustic guitars, I was a victim of it ( as well as electric)
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