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Author Topic: True 312** Surnames  (Read 996 times)
Castlebob
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« on: August 22, 2012, 01:47:15 PM »

We've lost a Jones, but I tried the following as a guide:

Using Ancestry's 1880  Census Surname Density guide, I dialled up these 'True 312**' testees' surnames & the counties/regions they are most common in. I ignored London & Birmingham as they were magnets for outsiders:

Williams: Most common in N Wales, S Wales, Lancs, Cheshire & Cornwall.
Hatton: Cheshire, Herefordshire & Lancs
Keyes: S Wales, Lancs & Essex
Reeder: Cheshire, Norfolk & Yorks.
McFarlane: Occurs in typical Kingdom of Strathclyde Brythonic Celt areas.
Armstrong: I have docs showing the surname's first recording in Cumberland in 1223, so potentially Kingdom of Rheged Brythonic Celt.

It's worth remembering that the vast majority of England, Wales & Southern Scotland were Brythonic Celt pre the Romans, Angles, Saxons, Vikings etc. My guess? I'd say west of the Pennines for most of the above, so Brythonic Celt?

Cheers,
Bob
PS Please feel free to remind me of this post when we end up being Saxon!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 02:31:38 PM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
rms2
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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2012, 02:48:04 PM »

I think each case is an individual matter. In your case, Bob, Brythonic Celt  might be the best answer, but in Busby, as I recall, the frequency of what they called S116 (xS145,S28) in general was greater in the south and east of England than elsewhere. That makes it look Anglo-Saxon and/or Danish Viking. Of course, Busby et al did not know about DF27, L238, and so on, so their S116 (xS145,S28) is a broader category than what you are talking about. It very well could be that the "true P312*" guys are more western than Busby's catch-all P312 (S116) category would indicate.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2012, 03:00:11 PM »

That's interesting. I'm more into genealogy & surnames & still haven't totally got the drop on DNA. I'm happy with whatever is eventually proven. I think my wife is convinced I have all the sensitivity of a Viking!
Cheers,
Bob
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
GoldenHind
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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2012, 04:05:07 PM »

While it is certainly possible, there is no reason to believe that everyone who is P312** will turn out to be members of the same currently undiscovered subclade. They may well turn out to be in subclades whose history and origin is quite diverse.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2012, 05:02:42 PM »

Very true, Goldenhind. There's little to do but speculate until more data comes in. Patience was never my strong point!
Cheers,
Bob
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
df.reynolds
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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2012, 06:01:02 PM »

While it is certainly possible, there is no reason to believe that everyone who is P312** will turn out to be members of the same currently undiscovered subclade. They may well turn out to be in subclades whose history and origin is quite diverse.

Yep, all the thousands who currently belong to the myriad varieties of L21+ would have been classified as R-P312** just four years ago.

--david
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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2012, 07:55:36 PM »

As time goes on, that P312* category becomes smaller and smaller and narrower and narrower. I wonder what the percentages in the Isles would have been had Busby tested for at least all of the major branch SNPs of P312 we know about now, and not just P312, L21, and U152. (I know they tested for M222, too, but that is not a major P312 branch SNP.)
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2012, 08:46:44 PM »

Maybe these Study Researchers (Busby, etc) going forward should contact the "Board of Citizen Scientists" and get their opinions before any explicit, detailed plans of any experiment and procedures are decided upon.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2012, 09:50:58 PM »

As time goes on, that P312* category becomes smaller and smaller and narrower and narrower. I wonder what the percentages in the Isles would have been had Busby tested for at least all of the major branch SNPs of P312 we know about now, and not just P312, L21, and U152. (I know they tested for M222, too, but that is not a major P312 branch SNP.)

In the GBR 1KG samples, 21.3% were initially marked as P312(xL21,U152). After the analysis, they were classified as follows:

DF27=12.8%
L238   =4.3%
DF19=4.3%

So zero samples are what we now refer to as P312**.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2012, 02:50:21 AM »

In the GBR 1KG samples, 21.3% were initially marked as P312(xL21,U152). After the analysis, they were classified as follows:
DF27=12.8%
L238   =4.3%
DF19=4.3%
So zero samples are what we now refer to as P312**.

I think you should say that the 5 Tuscans out of 51 of the 1KGP classified R-P312 are:

2 R-P312** (NA20770, NA20783)
1 R-Z274 (NA20519)
1 R-Z294/Z272 (NA20752)
1 R Z209/Z268/DF17/Z215/Z271/Z295/Z296 (NA20518)

Being these last the first subclades of R-DF27 we should expect many R-DF27 in Tuscany.

All this is very meaningful not only of the presence in Tuscany/Italy of the upstream subclades from R1b1* to R-L51, but also of the first R-P312.
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Maliclavelli


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chris1
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2012, 05:03:52 AM »

As time goes on, that P312* category becomes smaller and smaller and narrower and narrower. I wonder what the percentages in the Isles would have been had Busby tested for at least all of the major branch SNPs of P312 we know about now, and not just P312, L21, and U152. (I know they tested for M222, too, but that is not a major P312 branch SNP.)

In the GBR 1KG samples, 21.3% were initially marked as P312(xL21,U152). After the analysis, they were classified as follows:

DF27=12.8%
L238   =4.3%
DF19=4.3%

So zero samples are what we now refer to as P312**.

What was the geographical distribution of DF27, L238, DF19 within the British Isles?
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2012, 08:39:15 AM »


What was the geographical distribution of DF27, L238, DF19 within the British Isles?


They were simply labeled as GBR (Great Britain). In a few studies where the samples were re-used some were labeled as being from Kent. It makes sense that most of the samples were collected in SE England since the percentage of L21 was in the 20% range and U106, U152 and DF27 not far behind.
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Maternal: H
GoldenHind
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« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2012, 04:32:54 PM »

As time goes on, that P312* category becomes smaller and smaller and narrower and narrower. I wonder what the percentages in the Isles would have been had Busby tested for at least all of the major branch SNPs of P312 we know about now, and not just P312, L21, and U152. (I know they tested for M222, too, but that is not a major P312 branch SNP.)

In the GBR 1KG samples, 21.3% were initially marked as P312(xL21,U152). After the analysis, they were classified as follows:

DF27=12.8%
L238   =4.3%
DF19=4.3%

So zero samples are what we now refer to as P312**.

How many GBR 1KG samples are there?
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2012, 04:38:46 PM »


How many GBR 1KG samples are there?


The last time I checked, it was something like 46 male samples.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 04:43:45 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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Maternal: H
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2012, 05:14:59 PM »

The last time I checked, it was something like 46 male samples.
But of course many British are in the CEU and in other projects and certainly they are much more than the Tuscans (51 for all Italians) and no P312** is very meaningful.
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Maliclavelli


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GoldenHind
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« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2012, 08:40:17 PM »

Perhaps I am wrong, but my understanding is that there is more than one P312** in the 1KG CEU samples.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2012, 11:31:55 PM »

It appears that someone with Spanish colonial ancestry from Mexico has just tested P312** (ie U152-, L21-, DF27-, DF19- and L238-).
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Castlebob
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« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2012, 05:02:27 AM »

That's interesting, Goldenhind.
It'd be useful to see how many more Spanish are part of P-312**. The problem with dealing with miniscule data is that we can't tell if he's one of many, or a rarity. I dare say the same could be said for any of the P-312** group!
Just a small point: The Peninsula Wars saw several sieges taking place in western Spain. The traditional approach was to offer surrender terms, then if denied, the defences were stormed. The loss of life to the attackers was often horrific, & the unwritten rule was that certain 'rewards' were taken. Sadly,  as well as pillaging, women were also considered by some as fair game. I would imagine some unwanted DNA resulted. Wellington tried to stop much of this behaviour by hanging offenders, but discipline can break down in heated war zones.
I wonder if P-312** will be found in Italy in numbers as suggested by some others on this forum? If so, would that indicate  movement from Italy by a coastal route into Spain, then northwards? I'm not well up on this, so any views welcome.
 Cheers,
Bob
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
Castlebob
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« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2012, 08:34:46 AM »

I gather the new Mexican/Spanish chap is called Fimbres. I Googled the surname & saw that it MAY be a French surname.
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
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