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Author Topic: Ötzi's descendants  (Read 3320 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: August 20, 2012, 04:09:25 AM »

Where are the descendants of Ötzi now? We know they are above all in Corsica and North Sardinia, but, as this haplotype is very characteristic, we can follow where they expanded in these last 5000 years from Italy, and they may be also the witness of other haplogroups which from Italy expanded to Western Europe and in these last 500 years also to America.



1 15,16 13 30 22 11 11 14 13,14 10 12 16 21 15 19 21 13 >>
1 of 100 Northern Sardinia, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 15,16 13 30 22 10 11 14 13,14 11 11 16 20 16 17 23 11 >>
1 15,16 13 30 22 10 11 14 13,14 11 11 16 20 16 18 23 11 >>
2 of 288 Nicaragua [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America

1 15,16 13 31 22 11 11 14 13,14 10 12 16 22 15 17 21 12 >>
1 of 738 Cologne, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
15,16 13 30 22 11 11 14 13,14 1 >>

1 15,16 13 31 22 10 11 14 13,14 10 11 16 22 15 19 20 12 >>
1 of 384 Ravenna, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 15,16 12 30 22 10 11 14 13,14 10 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 68 Illinois, United States [Hispanic American] Admixed North America
15,16 12 29 22 10 11 14 13,14 2 >>
15,16 13 31 22 10 11 14 13,14 1 >>

1 15,16 13 31 22 10 11 14 14,14 11 11 16 20 17 17 21 11 >>
1 of 427 Córdoba, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America


15,16 12 29 22 10 11 14 13,14 2 >>
15,16 13 31 22 10 11 14 13,14 1 >>
15,16 13 30 22 11 11 14 13,14 1 >>
15,16 13 30 22 10 11 13 13,14 1 >>
15,16 13 30 22 10 11 14 13,15 1 >>

Everyone may enjoy himself by YHRD. For me everything was clear also before.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2012, 05:24:14 AM »

Even more characteristic is this haplotype with DYS438 fractionated: 11.2. But it seems that this mutation is recent and restricted to Italy.


1 15 11 28 23 10 12 14 13,15 10 12 16 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 11 28 23 10 12 14 13,15 11.2 11 16 20 16 18 21 11 >>
1 of 427 Córdoba, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 100 Northern Sardinia, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

2 15 12 29 23 10 12 14 13,15 9 12 16 20 16 19 21 11 >>
2 of 100 Northern Sardinia, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

15 12 29 23 10 11 14 13,15 6 >>
15 12 29 23 10 12 14 14,15 4 >>
15 12 29 23 10 12 13 13,15 3 >>
15 11 28 23 10 12 14 13,15 2 >>
15 12 29 23 10 12 14 13,14 2 >>
14 12 29 23 10 12 14 13,15 1 >>
15 13 30 23 10 12 14 13,15 1 >>
15 12 28 23 10 12 14 13,15 1 >>
15 12 30 23 10 12 14 13,15 1 >>

1 15 12 29 23 10 11 14 13,15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 12 29 23 10 11 14 13,15 10 11 15 21 15 19 21 13 >>
1 15 12 29 23 10 11 14 13,15 10 11 16 20 14 17 21 12 >>
1 15 12 29 23 10 11 14 13,15 10 11 16 20 14 18 21 11 >>
1 15 12 29 23 10 11 14 13,15 10 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 12 29 23 10 11 14 13,15 10 13 16 21 15 18 21 11 >>
1 of 47 Udine, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 1122 Stuttgart, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 100 Northern Sardinia, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 58 Kabardino-Balkaria, Russian Federation [Kabardin] Eurasian - Caucasian Asia
1 of 130 Modena, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 62 Caracas, Venezuela [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America

Who will be the Kabardin? Probably one who has nothing to do with this haplotype.
1 15 12 29 23 10 11 14 13,15 10 11 15 21 15 19 21 13 >>
1 of 509 Stuttgart, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 15 12 29 23 10 11 14 13,15 10 11 16 20 14 17 21 12 >>
1 of 130 Modena, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 15 12 29 23 10 11 14 13,15 10 11 16 20 14 18 21 11 >>
1 of 100 Northern Sardinia, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 15 12 29 23 10 11 14 13,15 10 13 16 21 15 18 21 11 >>
1 of 47 Udine, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 15 12 29 23 10 11 14 13,15 10 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 62 Caracas, Venezuela [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America

Then the Kabardin is this
1 15 12 29 23 10 11 14 13,15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
and probably doesn’t belong either to this haplogroup.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2012, 06:34:54 AM »

DYS438=11.2 is extremely rare. Only another occurrence in YHRD, and it is hg. R1b. Another on SMGF, not identified:

1 14 12 28 24 11 13 13 11,14 11.2 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 15 11 28 23 10 12 14 13,15 11.2 11 16 20 16 18 21 11 >>
1 of 100 Northern Sardinia, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 136 Andalucía/Extremadura, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Frank Deis
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« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2013, 09:47:16 PM »

Maliclavelli, to interrupt the soliloquoy -- my results here are pending here, but according to 23andMe I am "G2a."   If this holds up, because of the way citizenship works in Switzerland, it seems likely that everyone named Deiss in Switzerland will share my Y haplogroup.  What's cool about that is that the Südtirol where Ötzi was found isn't that far from Canton Aargau where all my Deiss cousins appear to have originated.   Swiss citizens are not citizens of the country, but of the town of their ancestors.  And Swiss Deisses all have the same town of origin -- Herznach, or a nearby town Zeihen.

I suppose that after my test comes in I may add a few letters to the haplogroup designation.

I've started a surname project here.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2013, 01:45:36 AM »

Maliclavelli, to interrupt the soliloquoy -- my results here are pending here, but according to 23andMe I am "G2a."   If this holds up, because of the way citizenship works in Switzerland, it seems likely that everyone named Deiss in Switzerland will share my Y haplogroup.  What's cool about that is that the Südtirol where Ötzi was found isn't that far from Canton Aargau where all my Deiss cousins appear to have originated.   Swiss citizens are not citizens of the country, but of the town of their ancestors.  And Swiss Deisses all have the same town of origin -- Herznach, or a nearby town Zeihen.

I suppose that after my test comes in I may add a few letters to the haplogroup designation.

I've started a surname project here.


Hi, Deiss. If you have had 23andMe, you can see which is the last SNP they tested on you, perhaps P15. Below you can see the SNP of Oetzi: L91.
Of course I think that you descend from the most ancient inhabitants of your zone, those I named the people of the Italian Refugium, or Alpine Refugium if you like. Anyway it is clear that they are more ancient of those Germans arrived there recently, even though you think, like the inhabitants of Alto Adige/Sud Tyrol, to be of German descent.
You can see below also as Italy gets the most ancient G2a* and G2b*, what I have always supported in many letters also here.

G2a1-P15*

11871__Filippelli (Mendicino-Calabre-Italy)__ P15+U5+L31+L223 (and 13 other equivalents to P15 except CTS4367- ) P16-P303-M406-

N110396 Pozun (Poland ?)__ idem Filippelli except L223- (but L223 is considered as instable by Ray Banks)

 •    G2   L79, L142.2, L156/PF3002, P287/PF3140
•   •    G2*   -
•   •    G2a   L31/PF3142/S149, P15/PF3112, PF3141/PR4100/U5
•   •    •    G2a*   -
•   •    •    G2a1   L149.1
•   •    •   •    G2a1*   -
•   •    •   •    G2a1a   L293
•   •    •   •    •    G2a1a*   -
•   •    •   •    •    G2a1a1   P16_1, P16_2
 •   •    •   •    •   •    G2a1a1*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    G2a1a1a   P18_1, P18_2, P18_3
•   •    •   •    G2a1b   PF3146
 •   •    •   •    •    G2a1b*   -
•   •    •   •    •    G2a1b1   PF3177
•   •    •   •    •   •    G2a1b1*   -
 •   •    •   •    •   •    G2a1b1a   M286
•   •    •   •    •   •    G2a1b1b   L91/PF3246/S285
•   •    •   •    •   •    •    G2a1b1b*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •    G2a1b1b1   L166, L167
•   •    •   •    G2a1c   L30/PF3267/S126, L32/PF3266/S148/U8, L190/M485

•   •    G2b   L72/S315, L183, M377
•   •    •    G2b*   -
•   •    •    G2b1   M283

G2a1b Haplogroup G2a1b men are found scattered throughout southwest & southern Asia and, though rare in Europe, reach observable levels in Corsica and Sardinia (Keller, G Project data). A double value for DYS19 in G is found almost exclusively within G2a1b though men with the same double value will not be reported as such. G2a1b2 includes Oetzi, the Iceman mummy preserved for over 5000 yrs. in the Italian Alps (Keller).

G2b Available G2b samples are either (a) those from Ashkenazi Jewish men from northeast Europe who have a null value for marker DYS425 or (b) a small number of men from the Mediterranean areas & Armenia, and more noticeably from Afghanistan, Pakistan and among Indian Pathans (Sengupta & G Project data).

« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 07:29:41 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2013, 02:13:39 AM »

"While some Alamanni era graves have been discovered, the first mention of Herznach is in 1097 as Hercenahc. The Ministerialis (unfree knights in the service of another lord) family von Herznach and Herznach castle are both mentioned".

From Wikipedia. It is clear for me that:
1) The name of the town is probably Celtic.
2) The people descend from those ancient inhabitants submitted by the invaders Alamanni: the Ministeriales like the Exercitales in Italy during the Lombard  era were the ancient inhabitants whom the invaders, given their low number, were constrained to use for the army and all the rest.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 02:41:04 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

AlfredMr
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