World Families Forums - Will Jones' L21- Z245+ L459+ Result Hold Up?

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Author Topic: Will Jones' L21- Z245+ L459+ Result Hold Up?  (Read 3096 times)
Castlebob
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« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2012, 02:59:45 AM »

In June, Henry  listed six who at that time  he considered 'True R-P312*'. I have tested for all the necessary, barring L238, & am also now part of that group. A close DNA same-name match as me has tested L238 & is L238-. For financfial reasons, I didn't bother with that. Since the June listing, the Jones issue has arisen, so the group has been reduced to perhaps 3, 4 or 5?
Henry listed the initial six members, plus last known ancestors & locations, & Ysearch IDs, on the Yahoo groups R-P312 Project pages on Wed 27th June.
My surname is via the Anglo-Scottish border - Kingdom of Rheged? McFarlane - Scottish - Kingdom of Strathclyde? Hatton, Reader & Keyes - English. Williams - Welsh. My initial thoughts (naively?) in June were that Brythonic Celts could account for all those surnames - particularly when Jones, at that stage, seemed to be included. From memory, I think one of the English blokes had an ancestor via Bristol? I appreciate Bristol is a port, so not a great chance his ancestors always lived there! Still, all you can do is research what information you are given.
I dare say options other than Brythonic Celt may be viable. I was brought up thinking my ancestors were of Anglo-Danish stock. Later research led me to believe we may be of Norman extraction. Now I'm veering towards Brythonic Celt! As ever, more data required. My results are listed at foot of post.
Cheers
Bob
PS I have no particular preference as to what tribal origins I might have, so over the years I've researched everything from Celt, Anglo-Dane, Flemish, Anglo-Saxon, Breton & others - all with equal vigour.
PPS I'VE JUST CHECKED MY MATCH TO MACFARLANE ON YSEARCH & AM A GD OF 35 OVER 95 MARKERS
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 05:10:15 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
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« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2012, 05:12:30 PM »

How many P312* guys have tested for L459 and Z245? I could have found out pretty easily had I kept hold of the R-P312 and Subclades Project, but I quit that one altogether (too soon, I guess). I'm not even a co-admin there anymore.

I am reliably informed that only four P312* have tested for both L459 and Z245. Jones, if he is indeed L21-, was positive for both. The other three- all of British (by which I mean Great Britain) origin- tested negative for both.

I didn't check but this sounds about right. We should not view L459 and Z245 as synonymous without a thorough testing.
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rms2
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« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2012, 10:26:17 PM »

If Jones' result is sustained, I hope the R-P312 and Subclades Project will direct some of its General Fund to recruiting and testing likely L21- L459+ and/or Z245+ candidates. I would press for continental testing, since I think we have a surfeit of British Isles folks (that includes me, too).
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eochaidh
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« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2012, 10:40:01 PM »

I voted "yes". Do I get a button, or a sticker, or something...
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OConnor
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« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2012, 06:17:33 AM »

I voted "yes". Do I get a button, or a sticker, or something...

you get a balloon...but if you're wrong it will *pop*.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 06:18:55 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2012, 09:59:20 AM »

I voted "yes". Do I get a button, or a sticker, or something...

You get the same thing you got when you were right about M222 being downstream from L21. ;-)
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eochaidh
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« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2012, 11:03:57 AM »

Cool.... I get the satisfaction (and surprise!) of being correct!

I also was right about my haplotype being connected to M222, but as it turns out, the reasons I connected my Haplotype to M222 have nothing to do with DF23. Well, except DYS481.
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rms2
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« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2012, 11:42:48 AM »

That's if you're right. You probably are, but we don't know yet.
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Jdean
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« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2012, 12:30:47 PM »

L21, L459 & Z245 have been placed at the same level on Thomas's draft tree again.

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813537
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« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2012, 01:56:05 PM »

L21, L459 & Z245 have been placed at the same level on Thomas's draft tree again.
Oh, boy.
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inver2b1
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« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2012, 02:21:59 PM »

Apologies, I don't follow R1b developments too closely, my interest in it is mainly from big a picture view of the populating of Britan and Ireland. From a big picture point of view what do these results seem to indicate?
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rms2
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« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2012, 03:06:46 PM »

L21, L459 & Z245 have been placed at the same level on Thomas's draft tree again.
Oh, boy.

Hmmm . . .

Maybe Thomas has the result and it's L21+?
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rms2
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« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2012, 03:18:36 PM »

Apologies, I don't follow R1b developments too closely, my interest in it is mainly from big a picture view of the populating of Britan and Ireland. From a big picture point of view what do these results seem to indicate?

No problem. It would be nearly impossible to keep up with all the developments in all of the y haplogroups and subclades.

Given what Jdean just posted, it might well be moot, but if Jones is L21- while being L459+ and Z245+, it would mean L459 and Z245 are between P312 and L21 (since quite a few L21+ guys have tested for those two SNPs, and no one has gotten a negative result on either). That would give us a more immediate pedigree for L21 and help us discover where it might have first arisen. Find guys who diverged at L459 or Z245 (or both) from the path that led to L21. Where you find a lot of them might just be the birthplace of L21. Of course, we would still need to sort out the Z245/L459 hierarchy. Are they equivalent? Is one downstream of the other? We don't know yet.

Of course, since Thomas Krahn changed his draft tree back to indicate that L21, Z245, and L459 are redundant, that may mean he has Jones' L21 retest result and it is now L21+.

It was my vote to begin with that is what would happen, but we still don't know yet.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 03:31:46 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mark Jost
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« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2012, 03:44:07 PM »

That would appear so as the draft tree was changed yesterday.

Update the content of node 99813537 from L459,Z245 to L21,L459,Z245

P312 SNP page for 63671 hasnt changed yet.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
eochaidh
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« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2012, 04:33:03 PM »

The Welsh singer Tom Jones says the results are "not unusual"....   :)
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df.reynolds
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« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2012, 04:53:52 PM »

Drumroll please......

Result did in fact not hold up. Rich may have been a pessimist, but at this point, he is a correct pessimist.

Quote from: Thomas Krahn
We have re-run kit 63671 and inconveniently the result turned out to be L21+. Since all results have a clear sequencing trace, I fear that we have had some sample switch in 2009 when the L21 test was run.

To get everything straightened out we have no other option than to collect a completely fresh sample from Mr. Jones and re-run all the tests that he has ordered in the past, or more reasonably to run all SNP tests that will bring him to his exact position on the Y- Draft Tree.

Lee Jones (63671) has been notified.

Regards,
david
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2012, 05:06:50 PM »

Drumroll please......

Result did in fact not hold up. Rich may have been a pessimist, but at this point, he is a correct pessimist.

Quote from: Thomas Krahn
We have re-run kit 63671 and inconveniently the result turned out to be L21+. Since all results have a clear sequencing trace, I fear that we have had some sample switch in 2009 when the L21 test was run.

To get everything straightened out we have no other option than to collect a completely fresh sample from Mr. Jones and re-run all the tests that he has ordered in the past, or more reasonably to run all SNP tests that will bring him to his exact position on the Y- Draft Tree.

Lee Jones (63671) has been notified.

This does not look good for the sanctity of SNP testing.  It makes one wonder if all the unclusterable P312* guys should order L459 just to confirm their L21- result.

Same goes for all unclusterable L21* guys... .they almost should order L459.. wait a minute.. they should order DF13 as at least they'd get some new information out of the test.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 05:15:43 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2012, 05:14:04 PM »

Had a strong feeling Jones would be L21+.  Would have been weird if the Celtic fringe has no  L21XDF13 but had some unique guy immediately upstream of L21.  At least this makes sense.  IMO, this has kind of been a distraction to the bigger finding that L21XDF13 has turned up far more common per head tested in the north and west of (lets call it Atlantic) France than in the isles or to the east of France and is apparently incredibly rare in the Celtic fringe of the isles.  That to me is a further piece of evidence that L21 originated in Atlantic France where it also has it continental frequency peak.  France is also the variance peak.  So it really looks like France is the origin point of L21.   I also suspect DF13 must have arisen in France too.  
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« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2012, 05:17:02 PM »

Had a strong feeling Jones would be L21+.  Would have been weird if the Celtic fringe has no  L21XDF13 but had some unique guy immediately upstream of L21.  At least this makes sense.  IMO, this has kind of been a distraction to the bigger finding that L21XDF13 has turned up far more common per head tested in the north and west of (lets call it Atlantic) France than in the isles or to the east of France and is apparently incredibly rare in the Celtic fringe of the isles.  That to me is a further piece of evidence that L21 originated in Atlantic France where it also has it continental frequency peak.  France is also the variance peak.  So it really looks like France is the origin point of L21.   I also suspect DF13 must have arisen in France too.  
I think you are correct, the Welsh may be important, but the origin of L21/L459/Z245 may be back where true L21+ DF13- people are found.
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df.reynolds
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« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2012, 05:26:32 PM »

Drumroll please......

Result did in fact not hold up. Rich may have been a pessimist, but at this point, he is a correct pessimist.

Quote from: Thomas Krahn
We have re-run kit 63671 and inconveniently the result turned out to be L21+. Since all results have a clear sequencing trace, I fear that we have had some sample switch in 2009 when the L21 test was run.

To get everything straightened out we have no other option than to collect a completely fresh sample from Mr. Jones and re-run all the tests that he has ordered in the past, or more reasonably to run all SNP tests that will bring him to his exact position on the Y- Draft Tree.

Lee Jones (63671) has been notified.

This does not look good for the sanctity of SNP testing.  It makes one wonder if all the unclusterable P312* guys should order L459 just to confirm their L21- result.

Same goes for all unclusterable L21* guys... .they almost should order L459.. wait a minute.. they should order DF13 as at least they'd get some new information out of the test.

I've had DNA tested at four different companies. Had a clerical mutation at one, sample error at another. Caught because of inconsistencies between my results and other Reynolds testers.

One issue I see is that many folks are not well enough versed with the mechanics of DNA testing to spot anomalous results.

I'd certainly agree (for a variety of reasons) that all of the unclusterable L21* guys should order DF13.

--david
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 05:27:19 PM by df.reynolds » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2012, 06:05:52 PM »

One issue I see is that many folks are not well enough versed with the mechanics of DNA testing to spot anomalous results.

I'd certainly agree (for a variety of reasons) that all of the unclusterable L21* guys should order DF13.

However, we are not always lucky enough to have enough comparative data to determine what might be an anomaly. In this case, Jones was as close, STR-wise, to P312+ L21- folks as he was to L21+ folks. 

I guess this is why you should recruit at least one 2nd cousin for testing and hope he matches you like he is supposed to. You wouldn't need 67 markers, but the lesson learned is to test the terminal SNP, if for no other reasons than has a cross-check.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 06:07:50 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2012, 06:12:36 PM »

Had a strong feeling Jones would be L21+.  Would have been weird if the Celtic fringe has no  L21XDF13 but had some unique guy immediately upstream of L21.  At least this makes sense.  IMO, this has kind of been a distraction to the bigger finding that L21XDF13 has turned up far more common per head tested in the north and west of (lets call it Atlantic) France than in the isles or to the east of France and is apparently incredibly rare in the Celtic fringe of the isles.  That to me is a further piece of evidence that L21 originated in Atlantic France where it also has it continental frequency peak.  France is also the variance peak.  So it really looks like France is the origin point of L21.   I also suspect DF13 must have arisen in France too.  

In the L21 Aug 3 spreadsheet, the L21+ DF13- and DF63- appear to be found in the UK England and Berry is the odd man out on off-modals.

Why would these guy be UK?

f37201   Berry   R-L21**   England   IS Eng Yorkshire   England, Yorkshire and Humber, West Yorkshire, Almondbury Huddersfield
fN80403   Bishop   R-L21**   England   IS Eng London   England, London
f94428   Meadows   R-L21**   zzCountry   IS z unk   UK
f236395   zzzUnknown   R-L21**   England   IS Eng z unk   England



worldnames - Roots of this name:
Surname Group  Subgroup  Language
BERRY  EUROPEAN_OTHER WESTERN ENGLISH ENGLISH
BISHOP EUROPEAN_OTHER WESTERN ENGLISH ENGLISH
MEADOWS EUROPEAN_OTHER WESTERN ENGLISH ENGLISH

And some DF63's England and Scotland

FRANKLIN EUROPEAN_OTHER WESTERN ENGLISH ENGLISH (Top UK/AUS Top Cities:
BIRMINGHAM, WEST MIDLANDS, UNITED KINGDOM/BRISTOL , SOUTH WEST, UNITED KINGDOM/OXFORD , SOUTH EAST , UNITED KINGDOM/COVENTRY , WEST MIDLANDS , UNITED KINGDOM

LEBLANC EUROPEAN_OTHER WESTERN FRENCH FRENCH (Minor Germany and Isle)
LOWDEN EUROPEAN_OTHER WESTERN ENGLISH ENGLISH (Major North England)
GERY EUROPEAN_OTHER WESTERN FRENCH FRENCH (Major LIMOUSIN , FRANCE and RHÔNE-ALPES, FRANCE)
DARKE EUROPEAN_OTHER WESTERN ENGLISH ENGLISH (Top UK/AUS)

L21+ DF63+
f54798   Franklin   R-L21/DF63   England   IS Eng z unk   England
f127090   LeBlanc   R-L21/DF63   France   EW Fra z unk   France
f191950   Lowden   R-L21/DF63   Scotland   IS Sco East   Scotland, Tayside, Forfarshire, Dundee
fN66966   Gery   R-L21/DF63   France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Bretagne, Finistère, Morlaix
fN72406   Darke   R-L21/DF63   England   IS Eng London   England, London

All English and French surname L21's with no subclade testing should test for DF13.

MJost

Added the latest DF63+'s

fN72406   Darke   R-L21/DF63   England   IS Eng London   England, London
f54798   Franklin   R-L21/DF63   England   IS Eng z unk   England
fB2414   Franklin?   R-L21/DF63   England   IS Eng z unk   England
fN66966   Gery   R-L21/DF63   France   EW Fra North Atlantic   France, Bretagne, Finistère, Morlaix
f127090   LeBlanc   R-L21/DF63   France   EW Fra z unk   France
f191950   Lowden   R-L21/DF63   Scotland   IS Sco East   Scotland, Tayside, Forfarshire, Dundee
f14713   Sutherland   R-L21/DF63   Scotland   IS Sco South   Scotland, Lothian, Edinburgh
f232541   Roma   R-L21/DF63   Spain   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees   Spain
f180338   Chavez   R-L21/DF63   zzCountry   zzRegion   zzzUnkOrigin
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 06:46:43 PM by Mark Jost » Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Jdean
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« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2012, 06:33:45 PM »

Same goes for all unclusterable L21* guys... .they almost should order L459.. wait a minute.. they should order DF13 as at least they'd get some new information out of the test.

Yep, that's my thoughts too !!
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Jdean
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« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2012, 06:35:26 PM »

Hey, who snuck in an opinion on the poll after the fact !!
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df.reynolds
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« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2012, 07:27:51 PM »

This is perhaps a nit picky point, but this is kind of a nit picky hobby. :)

Jones tested L21- in 2009 (with a nice, clear trace). Jones tested L21+ L459+ Z245+ in 2012 (again, nice clear traces).

We don't know which (if either) of the two samples was actually his, thus Thomas requesting a new sample with the plan of doing a complete re-test.

So while we can say there is no known Z245+ L459+ L21- sample, we cannot make any statement about Jones' SNP test results, as we don't know which (if any) are actually his.

Regards,
david
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