World Families Forums - Will Jones' L21- Z245+ L459+ Result Hold Up?

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Author Topic: Will Jones' L21- Z245+ L459+ Result Hold Up?  (Read 2501 times)
rms2
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« on: August 18, 2012, 11:30:14 AM »

I was bored, since there wasn't much in terms of y-dna results last night, so I thought I would create this poll. It's about Jones, Ysearch 5FRF8, and his putative L21- Z245+ L459+ result.

Thomas Krahn is double checking Jones' L21 result now, and I haven't heard any news on it.

So, is the original finding correct? Do you think Z245 and L459 really are between P312 and L21?

I know this is an L21-centric poll, but what the heck. You are free to post about other topics, as well.
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Jdean
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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2012, 11:53:00 AM »

I was bored, since there wasn't much in terms of y-dna results last night, so I thought I would create this poll. It's about Jones, Ysearch 5FRF8, and his putative L21- Z245+ L459+ result.

Thomas Krahn is double checking Jones' L21 result now, and I haven't heard any news on it.

So, is the original finding correct? Do you think Z245 and L459 really are between P312 and L21?

I know this is an L21-centric poll, but what the heck. You are free to post about other topics, as well.

Thomas has put these two SNPs above L21 on his draft tree

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813537

perhaps Thomas has rerun the tests but forgot to tell anybody ?
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2012, 11:57:16 AM »

I was bored, since there wasn't much in terms of y-dna results last night, so I thought I would create this poll. It's about Jones, Ysearch 5FRF8, and his putative L21- Z245+ L459+ result.

Thomas Krahn is double checking Jones' L21 result now, and I haven't heard any news on it.

So, is the original finding correct? Do you think Z245 and L459 really are between P312 and L21?

I know this is an L21-centric poll, but what the heck. You are free to post about other topics, as well.

Thomas has put these two SNPs above L21 on his draft tree

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813537

perhaps Thomas has rerun the tests but forgot to tell anybody ?

It is a draft tree, so maybe he just has those there provisionally, i.e., provided Jones' L21- result is confirmed.

I voted, "No. I think it is some kind of mistake", but that's just my guess. Obviously, I could be wrong.

If I am, it will certainly make things more interesting.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2012, 12:08:08 PM »

I think that Thomas Krahn wouldn’t have published this tree if he hadn’t had certain results:

Root = Approx. hg: R-L21,Approx. hg: R-L21 (ISOGG: R1b1a2a1a1b4,R1b (Inv)) L459, Z245
R1b1a2a1a1b4 (ISOGG: R1b1a2a1a1b3)  L21



You have lost another bet, Rich!
And you will lose another when you find many Italians L459/Z245+ and L21-.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 12:42:33 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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df.reynolds
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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2012, 12:19:01 PM »

I was bored, since there wasn't much in terms of y-dna results last night, so I thought I would create this poll. It's about Jones, Ysearch 5FRF8, and his putative L21- Z245+ L459+ result.

Thomas Krahn is double checking Jones' L21 result now, and I haven't heard any news on it.

So, is the original finding correct? Do you think Z245 and L459 really are between P312 and L21?

I know this is an L21-centric poll, but what the heck. You are free to post about other topics, as well.

Thomas has put these two SNPs above L21 on his draft tree

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813537

perhaps Thomas has rerun the tests but forgot to tell anybody ?

I have been in touch with Thomas and no, the results for the re-test are not yet available.  The fact that he changed the Draft Tree after the initial results is an indication that there was nothing he found suspicious about the initial results.

--david
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2012, 12:23:02 PM »

I think that Thomas Krahn wouldn’t have published this tree if he hadn’t had certain results:

Root = Approx. hg: R-L21,Approx. hg: R-L21 (ISOGG: R1b1a2a1a1b4,R1b (Inv)) L459, Z245
R1b1a2a1a1b4 (ISOGG: R1b1a2a1a1b3)  L21



You have lost another bet, Rich!
And you will lost another when you find many Italians L459/Z245+ and L21-.


Actually, I hope you're right in this case.

It's too dull around here, and I hope we get loads of Italians who are Z245+ L459+ and L21-.

I only started this thread because I was bored, and I had to vote just to see if anyone else did. I almost picked the last option, but I don't like baloney (bologna) all that much.
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razyn
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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2012, 12:31:29 PM »

Thomas has put these two SNPs above L21 on his draft tree

Speaking of updated trees, the ISOGG one has these all on the same level, at the moment (updated today) -- R1b1a2a1a1b3   L21/M529/S145, L459:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Lots of other updates.  Lots of those funny Scottish dialect forms of SNP names, etc.

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Jdean
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2012, 12:34:46 PM »

I was bored, since there wasn't much in terms of y-dna results last night, so I thought I would create this poll. It's about Jones, Ysearch 5FRF8, and his putative L21- Z245+ L459+ result.

Thomas Krahn is double checking Jones' L21 result now, and I haven't heard any news on it.

So, is the original finding correct? Do you think Z245 and L459 really are between P312 and L21?

I know this is an L21-centric poll, but what the heck. You are free to post about other topics, as well.

Thomas has put these two SNPs above L21 on his draft tree

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813537

perhaps Thomas has rerun the tests but forgot to tell anybody ?

I have been in touch with Thomas and no, the results for the re-test are not yet available.  The fact that he changed the Draft Tree after the initial results is an indication that there was nothing he found suspicious about the initial results.

--david

It strikes me as slightly odd that this should be taking so long, I think I'm going to vote that it's a miscall. However as Rich says it would be a lot more interesting if it's not !!!
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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2012, 12:40:22 PM »

How many P312* guys have tested for L459 and Z245? I could have found out pretty easily had I kept hold of the R-P312 and Subclades Project, but I quit that one altogether (too soon, I guess). I'm not even a co-admin there anymore.

I'm not going to comb the public SNP results pages of the project to find out. Too much work!
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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2012, 12:56:48 PM »

I still don't see any other votes but mine. Did I set the poll up wrong or is no one voting?
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Jdean
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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2012, 01:01:52 PM »

I still don't see any other votes but mine. Did I set the poll up wrong or is no one voting?

Sorry but you may have to explain how to vote, is there supposed to be a link off this page or something ?
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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2012, 01:09:10 PM »

I still don't see any other votes but mine. Did I set the poll up wrong or is no one voting?

Sorry but you may have to explain how to vote, is there supposed to be a link off this page or something ?

The poll choices and buttons don't show?
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2012, 01:17:23 PM »

I still don't see any other votes but mine. Did I set the poll up wrong or is no one voting?

Sorry but you may have to explain how to vote, is there supposed to be a link off this page or something ?

The poll choices and buttons don't show?

Nope not on my browser anyways (Chrome on Linux).
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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2012, 01:21:02 PM »

I still don't see any other votes but mine. Did I set the poll up wrong or is no one voting?

Sorry but you may have to explain how to vote, is there supposed to be a link off this page or something ?

The poll choices and buttons don't show?

Nope not on my browser anyways (Chrome on Linux).

Crud!

I'm not sure why. I keep checking back at what I did, and I can't find anything wrong.

Weird.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2012, 04:55:56 PM »

Regarding Jones he belongs to a cluster correct? Have others in this cluster also test Z245,L459 and L21 to verify that it's Z245+/L459+, L21- ?

If you ask me having a second tester would at least give even more credence to the result.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2012, 08:43:44 PM »

How many P312* guys have tested for L459 and Z245? I could have found out pretty easily had I kept hold of the R-P312 and Subclades Project, but I quit that one altogether (too soon, I guess). I'm not even a co-admin there anymore.

I'm not going to comb the public SNP results pages of the project to find out. Too much work!
I looked it up and counted nine P312* L459- and then the one Jones who is P312* L459+.

It's hard to know how large L459+ L21- could be but we know that L21's modal is close to P312's and if L459 is older than L21 then just about any P312* could be L459+.   Is there only one single remnant subclade left from L459+ L21-? We don't know and won't know until P312* is thoroughly tested.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 09:55:49 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
rms2
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« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2012, 09:59:37 PM »

How many P312* guys have tested for L459 and Z245? I could have found out pretty easily had I kept hold of the R-P312 and Subclades Project, but I quit that one altogether (too soon, I guess). I'm not even a co-admin there anymore.

I'm not going to comb the public SNP results pages of the project to find out. Too much work!
I looked it up and counted nine P312* L459- and then the one Jones who is P312* L459+.

It's hard to know how large L459+ L21- could be but we know that L21's modal is close to P312's and if L459 is older than L21 then just about any P312* could be L459+.   Is there only one single remnant subclade left from L459+ L21-? We don't know and won't know until P312* is thoroughly tested.

Ten results aren't enough to say with any certainty, that's for sure. We definitely need more P312* folks to test for L459 and Z245. Maybe Jones really is L21- Z245+ L459+. That would be cool.

I think Terry cleared up the poll's technical glitch. Is everyone able to see the poll choices and vote now?
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df.reynolds
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« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2012, 10:59:57 PM »

the poll's technical glitch. Is everyone able to see the poll choices and vote now?

I couldn't see a poll from Firefox, checked from Chrome & IE as well, couldn't see there either.

--david
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razyn
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« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2012, 11:01:12 PM »

Is everyone able to see the poll choices and vote now?

Nope, Firefox, MacBook.
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rms2
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« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2012, 07:57:31 AM »

Darn!

I'm trying to get it fixed.
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rms2
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« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2012, 07:48:31 PM »

Bumping this up.

Can you all vote now?
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2012, 08:01:08 PM »

Bumping this up.

Can you all vote now?

I see it now.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2012, 08:22:11 PM »

Bumping this up.

Can you all vote now?

I see it now.

Cool!

It's just for fun.

I don't know the answer, and I actually hope I was wrong in my choice.
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OConnor
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« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2012, 09:37:36 PM »

Is there ever such thing as back-mutations from snp's..like L21 ?
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


GoldenHind
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« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2012, 11:10:35 PM »

How many P312* guys have tested for L459 and Z245? I could have found out pretty easily had I kept hold of the R-P312 and Subclades Project, but I quit that one altogether (too soon, I guess). I'm not even a co-admin there anymore.

I am reliably informed that only four P312* have tested for both L459 and Z245. Jones, if he is indeed L21-, was positive for both. The other three- all of British (by which I mean Great Britain) origin- tested negative for both.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 11:15:35 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
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