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Author Topic: About the origin of R-V88 again  (Read 1533 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: August 17, 2012, 06:18:27 PM »

Unfortunately also this paper isn’t for free, but we can read the supplements. A little strange a tree in which M269 is the ancestor of M18, M343, P297, V88 etc. and also the presence in Guinea (Spanish colony) of some R-M269 of clearly European descent. But what the authors says probably is interesting. I said once that this haplogroup didn’t come from Asia, like the same Cruciani seemed to think and like Vincent Vizachero has always thought, but from Italy via sea (or from Iberia). This paper, by saying that R-V88 was born in Central-West Africa and expanded to East Africa, seems to support my theory, if we don’t want to think what one R-V88 said, that the origin of hg. R is in Africa.

European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication 15 August 2012; doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2012.167

The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88

Miguel González1, Verónica Gomes1,2, Ana Maria López-Parra3, António Amorim1,4, Ángel Carracedo2, Paula Sánchez-Diz2, Eduardo Arroyo-Pardo3 and Leonor Gusmão1

Abstract

Human Y chromosomes belonging to the haplogroup R1b1-P25, although very common in Europe, are usually rare in Africa. However, recently published studies have reported high frequencies of this haplogroup in the central-western region of the African continent and proposed that this represents a ‘back-to-Africa’ migration during prehistoric times. To obtain a deeper insight into the history of these lineages, we characterised the paternal genetic background of a population in Equatorial Guinea, a Central-West African country located near the region in which the highest frequencies of the R1b1 haplogroup in Africa have been found to date. In our sample, the large majority (78.6%) of the sequences belong to subclades in haplogroup E, which are the most frequent in Bantu groups. However, the frequency of the R1b1 haplogroup in our sample (17.0%) was higher than that previously observed for the majority of the African continent. Of these R1b1 samples, nine are defined by the V88 marker, which was recently discovered in Africa. As high microsatellite variance was found inside this haplogroup in Central-West Africa and a decrease in this variance was observed towards Northeast Africa, our findings do not support the previously hypothesised movement of Chadic-speaking people from the North across the Sahara as the explanation for these R1b1 lineages in Central-West Africa. The present findings are also compatible with an origin of the V88-derived allele in the Central-West Africa, and its presence in North Africa may be better explained as the result of a migration from the south during the mid-Holocene.

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« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 10:50:34 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Mkk
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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2012, 03:21:03 AM »

Ofcourse it's still possible that a non-V88 R1b1 migration simply spawned V88 once it had got to central-west Africa.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2012, 05:09:18 AM »

Ofcourse it's still possible that a non-V88 R1b1 migration simply spawned V88 once it had got to central-west Africa.
And it is for this that I am against an African origin of this haplgroup, lacking Africa the ustream subclades like R1b1/V88-, and the presence of some R1* is so ancient that it is found all over the world and has no meaning for genealogy. Also for this, for the pathway of this haplogroup, I have supported an European (above all Italian) origin. My hypothesis that R-V88+ had reached Africa from North (Italy by sea, or at least Iberia) was exposed also to Fulvio Cruciani, who answered a letter of mine, and promised to take this theory in consideration. That Africa has had a back migration from Europe is largely demonstrated, not only by the autosomal point of view, but also from the presence of many European mtDNA and also from ancient hg. L which demonstrate an ancient coming back from Africa to Europe of these haplogroups migrated to Africa probably during the LGM.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 05:10:23 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2012, 08:15:25 AM »

The possibility of a migration from the south is completely baseless and goes against all data and studies of the last ten years.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2012, 09:24:45 AM »

To demonstrate that the R-M269 (see for instance EG103) come from Iberia I think it is enough these haplotypes from YHRD:

1 14 13 29 24 10 12 14 11,14 12 11 15 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>
1 of 91 Majorca, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

1 14 13 29 23 10 12 14 11,14 12 11 15 19 16 18 23 12 >>
1 of 180 Granada, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe


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Maliclavelli


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Jean M
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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2012, 10:07:49 AM »

The possibility of a migration from the south is completely baseless and goes against all data and studies of the last ten years.

Agreed. I'm not bothering with this.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2012, 11:44:30 AM »

If someone wants to enjoy his/herself with a haplotype not only with DYS393=14 and DYS392=12, but with two other values largely out of modal, look at Cecconello, Italian from Brazil, with also DYS437=12 and DYS448=20: ySearch 2YBSD.
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Maliclavelli


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vineviz
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2012, 03:24:14 PM »

The possibility of a migration from the south is completely baseless and goes against all data and studies of the last ten years.

Agreed. I'm not bothering with this.

I've just seen the paper, and it is pretty well rubbish. 

The sampling is too narrow (no non-African populations) and the variance calculations excessively dependent on a small (n=9) Equitorial Guinea sample with only 7 STRs.
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Mkk
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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2012, 04:26:25 PM »

Quote
The sampling is too narrow (no non-African populations)
Is there any V88 outside Africa?
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vineviz
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« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2012, 06:52:41 PM »

Quote
The sampling is too narrow (no non-African populations)
Is there any V88 outside Africa?
Yes, it is present throughout the Near East and Europe.
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vineviz
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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2012, 07:24:16 PM »

Yes, it is present throughout the Near East and Europe.

And if you estimate intraclade variance for Asia (as done in the paper), it is significantly higher than in Africa (even Equitorial Guinea).
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2012, 07:29:34 PM »

Vizachero has all the elements at his disposal for understanding how is the matter by R1b1 FTDNA Project.
1)   V69 is a subclade of V88+, then more recent by SNPs
2)   V88 out of Africa is in Europe: a) cluster A    (only Al Azdi from Yemen), b) cluster A2, c) cluster B1, d) cluster B2, e) cluster C3.
3)   Out of Europe: a) cluster C0 Saudi Arabia.
4)   Jews, we don’t know for certain from where,: a) cluster C1 (1 cluster), b) cluster C2 (1 cluster).

It seems to me that, even though I take the clusters from the Vizachero’s classification, and probably I’d have something to say if I put hands to them, Europe has largely more clusters, above all if, as has been demonstrated for other Y and mtDNA, Jews are due to introgression from European genes.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 01:12:27 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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vineviz
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« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2012, 07:34:05 PM »

Europe has largely more clusters, above all. . . .
To the limited extent this statement is true, it is only because we have more samples (tested to higher resolution) from Europe than elsewhere.
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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2012, 10:03:52 PM »

I know it is not really possible to prove a connection, but the Fulani of Mali have a relatively high level of R-V88 and a relatively high level (for Africa) of the most common Eurasian version of lactase persistence:

http://www.malariajournal.com/content/10/1/9
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A_Wode
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« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2012, 10:29:54 PM »

An old Near-Eastern (levantine specifically) is still the most likely origin. Most V88 European have documented Jewish ancestry, or have 'questionable' Spanish/English ancestry.

Since V88 and L389 splits the Near-East and the eastern areas of West Asia, this middle point is the likely origin for R1b. I don't see basing Italy or England as an origin based on a single person.The evidence really speaks against this scenario - although it's not as ridiculous as West-Central Africa.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2012, 05:27:54 AM »

Always by using the Klyosov’s 22 slowest mutators, these are the values of the R-V88+ clusters of R1b1 FTDNA Project:

A1       12 12 13 11 12 11 10 8 15 15 8 10 8 12 12 12 12 8 13 11 11 12
A2       12 12 13 11 12 10 12 8 15 16 8 10 8 11 11 12 12 8 13 11 11 12
B1       12 12 13 11 12 11 12 8 15 16 8 10 8 12 11 12 12 8 12 11 12 12
B2       12 12 13 11 12 11 12 8 15 16 8 10 8 12 11 12 12 8 12 11 11 12
C0       12 12 12 11 13 11 12 8 15 16 8 10 8 12 11 12 12 8 12 11 12 12
C1       12 12 13 11 12 11 12 8 15 16 8 11 8 12 11 12 12 8 12 11 12 12
C2       12 12 13 11 12 11 12 8 15 16 8 11 8 12 11 12 12 8 12 11 12 12
C3       12 12 13 11 12 11 12 8 15 16 8 11 8 12 11 12 12 8 12 11 12 12

Some of these clusters have 1 mutation, then probably the clusters should be thought again, but something may be seen also here.
1)   It is clear that C1 C2 and C3 are the same unique cluster. C1 an C2 are Jewish ones, but C3 is composed of Spaniards, and Manzanares has also DYS455=12 and not 11 and probably is another cluster. In this cluster there is Arellano, and I remember that the first Arellano, found on SMGF and put on ySearch, was a discover of mine when I discussed (tons of letters) with the now R1b1/V88+ (surname withhold) but then this SNP hadn’t be discovered yet and I supported that these Sephardim, after migrated also to East Europe, were an introgression from Spaniards and not the other way around.
2)   C0, having the mutations as to C1 C2 and C3 of DYS392=12, DYS454=13 and DYS641=10, is clearly another cluster and it is put here for giving a semblance of Eastern origin to the Jewish clusters C1 and C2, but it is linked more to A and B than to C. The presence of this cluster, clearly to me of Western European origin, in Saudi Arabia shall be explained, but so far it is an unique sample found.

To A_Wode I’d want to say that it needs a deep faith (and probably he gets much) to think that R-V88+ comes from Middle East. I wanted to create a new topic, with the title “The miracle of fishes: how they create inexistent clusters”, but after I decided to post it here.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 07:08:08 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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