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Author Topic: Flemish Names in Scotland  (Read 1256 times)
Castlebob
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« on: August 17, 2012, 01:28:11 AM »

Scotland's People have listed these names as being of possible  Flemish origin:
Fleming, Baird, Balliol, Brodie, Bruce, Cameron, Campbell, Comyn, Crawford, Douglas, Erskine, Graham, Hamilton, Hay, Innes, Murray, Oliphant & Seaton.
I think Rutherford  (Ruddervoorde) can be added to that list.

I gather they want people connected to the above to contact researchers with information.

Cheers,
Bob
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Ben Van Beurden
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« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2012, 07:42:20 AM »

Some Scottish Campbell's state that there forefather was a Norman knight, named de Campo Bello, who came to England with William the Conqueror. 2 observations: 1) Normandy is not Flanders - 2) Even if their ancestor(s) has/have lived in Flanders, Campbell is not Flemish at all (linguistically). Campobello is rather Spanish (meaning beautiful field / landscape).

Bruce is derived from the city of Bruges.

Balliol looks very French to me ("Bailleul", a few municipalities in France carry that name).

Very clearly of Flemish origin (in the linguistic meaning!) are: Fleming, Bruce, Comyn, and Innes (typical Flemish male name). The others I don't know.
For instance, Douglas is gaelic, but that doesn't say anything about the nationality of the forebear.

Crawford could be derived from 'Kraaivoorde', meaning: a fordable place where crows lived. Personnally, I don't know any place in Flanders with that name. That doesn't mean that there isn't any nor that is has never existed (and disappeared over the ages). Besides, in the English language, one can make the same combination with 'crow' and 'ford'.

 
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Castlebob
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« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2012, 08:50:07 AM »

Research suggests that the first Douglas appeared in 1179, son of Theobald the Fleming. He was given land in Lanarkshire by the Abbot of Kelso Abbey, for services rendered.
The land was at Dubh Glas, Anglicised into Douglas.
Rutherfords claim their name was via a Flemish mounted knight: Rudder = River; Voorde = crossing. Lindsays were via Gilbert de Ghent of Lincolnshire.
The first Scottish Lindsay took his name from Lindsey (sic), an old Anglo-Saxon kingdom in Lincs where he held land.
Bruce was closely connected to other Flemings: The Lindsays were Lord Chamberlains for much of their early history. One served Bruce. I tend to think Bruce was via the Cotentin , Normandy, but the family was from Bruges pre that. The rampant lion being just one clue.
The wool trade was of huge importance to the Border monasteries. By the start of the 13th C, Melrose Abbey had over 25,000 sheep on its lands. They exported to Bruges. Many Flemings were baillies on the borders.

Bob
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 09:40:40 AM by Castlebob » Logged

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glentane
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« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2012, 09:40:00 AM »

Who can forget the great Billy Bremner?
That surname was first recorded in the early C15th, and denoted a Brabanter, originally mangled (vowel-shifted a bit and nasalised) by the Scots to "Breb'ner"   (even today folk in the Borders and Galloway seem unaware of the distinction between everybody else's "a" and "e").

There's a distinction to be made between names of Flemish origin, and the surnames attached to actual Flemings, though.
First group seems mostly origin placenames over there, second group is landholdings over here, of intimidatingly heterogenous linguistic origins.
Murray a case in point. Freskin set up his castle dominating the the former Gaelic/Pictish mormaer-dom of Moireabh, the "sea-realm", lat. Moravia, so "de Moravia" he jolly well became.
And if the Douglas are kin, then it's from the dubhglas/Douglas Water (dubh is black or dark, glas can mean green or grey or even blue, context dependent). Crawford is not too far away, and it's not known who started the surname, although the place was hoatching with Flemings, for ex. " John de Craufurd witnessed a charter of Abbott Arnold to Theobald* Flamaticus for Douglas Water ".
[*ah, I see you got that while I was scribbling :) ]

And Rutherford, like Crawford, Hyndford, Sandford, Crossford or Glassford, Hurlford, Eckford, Slateford, Redford, and Blackford, is a placename from the very sizeable early and middle English substrate (laid over brythonic) of mediaeval south Scotland, composed of Northumbrian Angles, refugees from the genocide of 1069/70, and clients and tenants of the new "Norman" landlords. With a few scandinavians thrown in to liven things up.

They could easily be of Flemish descent, but their name is most parsimoniously explained as English. And english English at that. I've a vague idea it refers to the soil/rock colour, reddish, but then again what do I know.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2012, 09:49:27 AM »

I think there are quite a few trying hard to forget Bremner, Glentane!
There are so many connections to the Flemings on the Borders. In 1168 the Augustinian House of Liddell, Canonbie, Dumfriesshire was granted to Jedburgh Abbey by Turgis Brundas, a Fleming.
As per my previous post, I believe many underestimate the Flemish influence in Scotland. I once read that the Normans 'borrowed' most of their chivalric traditions & coats of arms etc, from the Flemings.
I gather the Douglas's were very keen on jousting - another great Flemish tradition.
Bob
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glentane
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« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2012, 10:26:19 AM »

Ah. Coffee. Seems to have activated a moribund bit of the old brain.
Bremner: could just as easily be a blow-in from Bremen, therefore not Flemish.

I can think of at least one other "Hansa"-type name, Danskin, i.e. from Danzig/GdaƄsk, so I'd guess there are more seaport-type Scottish names kicking about.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2012, 11:19:24 AM »

Jordan Fantosme was a medieval chronicler, a sort of latter-day war correspondent who attended several battles between England & Scotland. He wrote about William the Lion of Scotland coming south in 1173/4 to  Cumberland with an army containing many Flemish mercenaries.
Flemings appeared to be castle builders (& destroyers!) & may have been reesponsible for many of Scotland's towers & castles.
I recall reading that the Flemings fought bravely during the defence of then then Scottish town of Berwick.
I mention the above as I'm sure many probably stayed in Scotland, not just noble families.
Bob
PS I have no bias towards the Flemings, just feel they get overlooked!
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 11:48:58 AM by Castlebob » Logged

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Castlebob
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« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2012, 11:36:24 AM »

While my memory's working adequately, a Mainard Flandrensem was named in King David's time, plus the obvious surname of Baldwin occurs, too. In some cases I recall numbers of Flemish traders in areas, not just ones or twos.
Bob
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Castlebob
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« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2012, 12:26:01 PM »

Just one more:
In Lanarkshire, Scotland a stepson of Baldwin held the village Crawfordjohn.
Bob
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 12:30:50 PM by Castlebob » Logged

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Ben Van Beurden
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2012, 07:05:52 AM »

There's no etymological justification at all to explain 'Rudder' by 'River' ('Rivier' in Flemish),so: why was the v replaced by double d and did the short i and long ie disappear, and so on...
 Since 'Rudder' is the West-Flemish dialect for 'Rijder' or 'Ruiter' [Rider or horseman], Rutherford means : a crossing or fordable place for horsemen.
A municipality Ruddervoorde in Western Flanders existed as early as the 10th century.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2012, 09:54:55 AM »

Thanks Ben,
I read that they were a non-noble class of mounted knights, formed to react rapidly to Viking incursions along the coastal regions of W Flanders.
They were supposedly related to the Douglas, Furnes, Harnes, Lucy, Hacket & Winter families.
I can't vouch for the above, just relaying the info.
Bob
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