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Author Topic: Haplogroups of the Kings of the (British) Isles  (Read 3929 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2012, 06:50:08 PM »

I looked at Coburg's matches at ysearch and he seems to be related to the Scots. If he is of German descent then his matches should be Germans. He is 14 of the Magoon modal and it is a top of the range Scottish surname.Where is the joke?

He is only 14 of the Magoons,a name associated with the Picts of Scotland. He must have been a stray Scot.

I'm missing something. Is this a joke?

I didn't understand your short hand "He is only 14 of the Magoons." I guess you are saying GD of 14 from the U106 Magoons.  Right?
.. and nothing to do with the Scots Modal (L21+) people.


f231054   P93DY R-U106 Dedi Graf im Hasegau (Coburg) (von Oldenburg), b.c.916, Wettin, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany

is closer to these guys
f33310   RPQKW R-U106 Hugh Keys, d.1733 Derryvullan, Co. Fermanagh, Ulster, Ireland
f175525   noYs  R-U106/Z381/Z156/Z305* James Kidder, b.1626, England
f143359   2SMDR R-U106 Hugh Thompson, b.1699, Ulster, Northern Ireland

Thanks to the Magoons, but I see two of those are from Northern Ireland.

Perhaps this is just another of those ironies. Over on the U106 forum, this is posted
Quote
The King's cousin's sample is pending its extension to 111 markers. Meanwhile, a significant SNP test result has arrived. Previously having tested R1b-U106+, we can now report that the King's cousin is R1b-U106 > Z381 > Z156 > Z305+.

He's confirmed Z156+, and of the Z305+ subclade.

BTW, I don't think it is proven these modern haplotypes are of the King's family but they could be and the author's attempt at triangulation is on the right track of minimizing opportunities (generations) for NPEs.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b1c_U106-S21/message/7217
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 06:51:04 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
df.reynolds
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« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2012, 09:05:39 PM »

Two completely different disjoint efforts resulted in testing a descendant of Prince Leopold, Duke of Albany, son of Queen Victoria & Prince Albert, as well as testing a descendant of an illegitimate son of King Leopold I of Belgium. King Leopold I of Belgium was Prince Albert's uncle.

The haplotypes match, which to my mind confirms that King Leopold and his father Franz, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, as well as Franz' grandson Prince Albert, all share the haplotype/haplogroup being established by the current testing.

Any ancestors of Duke Franz, or any male descendants in other lines, one can presume the haplogroup is the same, but there is indeed always the possibility of an NPE.

This would be the presumed haplogroup of Prince Charles' maternal grandfather, King George VI.  

But not the haplogroup for Prince Charles, which would be the same as his father's, Prince Philip, who is of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg; Philip's paternal grandfather was King George I of Greece, son of King Christian IX of Denmark.

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david






« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 09:21:29 PM by df.reynolds » Logged
sernam
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« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2012, 10:52:20 PM »

The thread on U106 and British Kins and last male lineage widened out into broader topics so I thought I'd set up a new thread on it because I wanted everyone to see a quick run down that Brian Swann created.

My intent is not to relegate this topic to kings of Great Britain but to include preeminent Irish High Kings as well, at least any way we can reasonably determine were historically documented.



Brian Picton Swann is the ISOGG Regional Co-ordinator and England and Wales. He posted this summary on the U106 yahoo group.
Quote from: Brian Picton Swann
Saxon

The Saxon Royal line is interesting, starting with the semi-legendary Cerdic who may have landed in Hampshire ca 495 or later; origins unknown.  Summary of the conflicting theories in the Wikipedia article.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerdic_of_Wessex
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wessex_family_tree

This line became extinct with the death of Edward Atheling in about 1125/6. Many of the links are disputed. Egbert, who became King of Wessex in 802, was probably of Kentish origin, and his ancestry back to Cerdic may have been invented to legitimize his claim to the throne of Wessex.

Wasn't there some speculation about the early Wessex (later English) kings being of Briton extraction because of the implausible story of a lowly ealdorman like Ceric leaing a large expedition from coastal Germany/Denmark to Britain & the apparently Brittonic names of early Saxon kings? Sort of a local Romano Brit leader backed by Saxon troops establishing a rule over an area using mercs?
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OConnor
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« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2012, 11:19:11 PM »

It seems to my knowledge that the Cathel sequence in the Conner Project was not entered by an O'Conor.

You can probably find the source of the sequence listing under the Y-search listing of the sequence. I'm not saying things are not as they seem..but some people may want to connect to kingship for their own reasons.

Perhaps that person would shed light on the authenticity of the sample.

The story I read about Cathel is that he was found working on a farm..and possessing the red hand was placed in kingship. I have been unable to find that article the past few minutes searching. So the question in my mind is..was the real Cathel found or a puppet for whatever reasons.

PS..my surname is O'Connor..though not O'Conor..and I do not make any claim to be from that line. It's just that I would like things to be not grasped too quickly without
 looking at all circumstances. I do tend to be somewhat cautious.



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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Dubhthach
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« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2012, 06:29:40 AM »

It seems to my knowledge that the Cathel sequence in the Conner Project was not entered by an O'Conor.

You can probably find the source of the sequence listing under the Y-search listing of the sequence. I'm not saying things are not as they seem..but some people may want to connect to kingship for their own reasons.

Perhaps that person would shed light on the authenticity of the sample.

The story I read about Cathel is that he was found working on a farm..and possessing the red hand was placed in kingship. I have been unable to find that article the past few minutes searching. So the question in my mind is..was the real Cathel found or a puppet for whatever reasons.

PS..my surname is O'Connor..though not O'Conor..and I do not make any claim to be from that line. It's just that I would like things to be not grasped too quickly without
 looking at all circumstances. I do tend to be somewhat cautious.


to be honest I've never heard that story with regards to Cathal, I see it mentioned here as been a "folklore" story, tbh it doesn't sound right in context that Irish society didn't have concept of illegitimacy, men had multipe wives using divorce frequently (marriages were civil not religous), sons by concubines were just as legimate as sons by actual wives etc.

http://www.libraryireland.com/HullHistory/OConors1.php

Of course all the historic sources put Cathal as one of sons of Toirdhealbhach Ua Conchobhair and brother of Ruaidhrí -- mention of wars between Ruaidhrí sons and their uncle etc.

The thing is we do see McManus from Roscommon as well who shows close connections to O'Connors and M222, these are descended from another son of Toirdhealbhach Ua Conchobhair

O'Connor and O'Conor are just slightly different angliscations of the same basic surname. Though there are several distinctive non-related families bearing the name. Conchobhar was and still is (in anglisced form) an extremely popular firstname in Ireland. A more modern spelling might be: Conchúr -- interesting enough though the pronunciation has shifted in Irish so it's pronunced as Cro-chúr  (ch is pronunced like ch in German Bach, or the J in spanish Junta)
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sernam
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« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2012, 12:47:57 PM »

I do tend to be somewhat cautious.
Yes saying M222 was possibly a galloglass marker surely was being the soul of caution.;)
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OConnor
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« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2012, 06:31:55 AM »

I do tend to be somewhat cautious.
Yes saying M222 was possibly a galloglass marker surely was being the soul of caution.;)

I was asking if it's possible that most M222 came via Scotland since the 13th century ...not all M222. I didn't see a real problem with asking that. It's possible some  people have asked if M222 got to Scotland from Ireland with regards to DalRiada. 
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


OConnor
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« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2012, 07:15:08 AM »

It seems to my knowledge that the Cathel sequence in the Conner Project was not entered by an O'Conor.

You can probably find the source of the sequence listing under the Y-search listing of the sequence. I'm not saying things are not as they seem..but some people may want to connect to kingship for their own reasons.

Perhaps that person would shed light on the authenticity of the sample.

The story I read about Cathel is that he was found working on a farm..and possessing the red hand was placed in kingship. I have been unable to find that article the past few minutes searching. So the question in my mind is..was the real Cathel found or a puppet for whatever reasons.

http://www.libraryireland.com/HullHistory/OConors1.php

O'Connor and O'Conor are just slightly different angliscations of the same basic surname. Though there are several distinctive non-related families bearing the name. Conchobhar was and still is (in anglisced form) an extremely popular firstname in Ireland. A more modern spelling might be: Conchúr -- interesting enough though the pronunciation has shifted in Irish so it's pronunced as Cro-chúr  (ch is pronunced like ch in German Bach, or the J in spanish Junta)

It is my understanding that Conchúr is connected to the Kerry O'Connor.I haven't seen it used otherwise.
Conor Liath Conchur built Carrigafoyle Castle on the south shore of the Shannon River.

Video tour of Carrigafoyle Castle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj5n_qJFYDA

Also O'Conor seems to be the spelling associated with Connacht. I believe this group is connected with 2 other O'Connor septs in N/W Ireland.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Dubhthach
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« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2012, 07:50:52 AM »


It is my understanding that Conchúr is connected to the Kerry O'Connor.I haven't seen it used otherwise.
Conor Liath Conchur built Carrigafoyle Castle on the south shore of the Shannon River.

Video tour of Carrigafoyle Castle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj5n_qJFYDA

Also O'Conor seems to be the spelling associated with Connacht. I believe this group is connected with 2 other O'Connor septs in N/W Ireland.

Ó Conchúr is the modern Irish spelling (post spelling reform). It's equivalent to middle/early modern Irish Ó Conchobhair, obviously people still use the older spelling, however it's pronounced exactually the same as Ó Conchúr, likewise as a firstname you will see both Conchobhar and Conchúr used.
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Ernest Johnson
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« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2012, 08:21:23 AM »

Right now the only snp under Z305+ that has not gotten results back is L128 of which I'm positive for. Kidder is possibly L128 but has problems getting his results back on L128. I carry most of the STR values below except being off by 1 on two marker as well as having an event that knocked my dys464 back to 15c-15c.
Ernest Johnson #5962

There has been quite a bit of recent discussion regarding this topic on the U106/S21 Yahoo Groups.  An author has claimed his grandfather was the eldest son of King George V. He was able to convince a direct male-line descendant of Prince Albert (and Queen Victoria) to undergo DNA testing and he matches the family 66/67.

In addition, Deep-clade testing has shown where they are R1b-U106 and negative for all the sub-clades in FT-DNAs current R1b Deep-Clade testing. They have joined the U106 Y-DNA Project and are testing for the Z series SNPs below U106.

The author of the book has stated he has "proven" the relationship of the haplogroup to the Kingly lineage. The "Wettin" man is the key. For my usage of the term "proven", he has not provided that strong of a case. He definitely is on to something but I just can't say the case is ironclade, at least yet.

The U106 project coordinator, Charles Moore, would not use the word "proven" but he has read the book and answers...
Quote from: Charles Moore
I'll just answer this. The 2 lines that are triangulated descend from Franz, 1750-1806, Duke of Saxe-Coburg.  One line is via his son King Leopold of Belgium via a brother of the next King in the line.  The other line is via another son of Franz, Ernst, via his son Prince Albert, husband of Queen Victoria, via their son, a younger brother of Edward VII.

My understand is that the haplotype of the "Wettin" man is the first one below. He and the other three have a strong STR signature.

f231054   P93DY R-U106 Dedi Graf im Hasegau (Coburg) (von Oldenburg), b.c.916, Wettin, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany
f33310   RPQKW R-U106 Hugh Keys, d.1733 Derryvullan, Co. Fermanagh, Ulster, Ireland
f175525   noYs  R-U106/Z381/Z156/Z305* James Kidder, b.1626, England
f143359   2SMDR R-U106 Hugh Thompson, b.1699, Ulster, Northern Ireland

That STR signature is 395s1=16,16 459=9,9 520=21 390=24 557=15 458=18 (464=1$,15,16,$) and I labeled it as variety "s156-9921" in the Haplotype_Data_R-U106All spreadsheet.

Kidder is Z305+ L1-. The other folks should test for Z305 to validate/invalidate this variety. This is not within the large L48 subclade.

When it comes to royal lineages, I think the historical/genealogical record is probably good, but NPE rates must still be considered. ISOGG recomends, based on NPE studies, that "when the father is confident he is the father", we use an NPE rate of 4% per generation. To go back to 910AD would require 30 generations which means the odds are 71% that there will be NPE. The triangulation becomes very important.  The more that distant cousins can be tested, the wider the triangulation, the better we can reduce the chances of an NPE.
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A.D.
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« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2012, 04:23:41 PM »

Dubhthach, do we know which dialect(s) of Irish were used in these accounts as sometimes pronoucition is quite different, eg in Ulster -Gaelic (Donegal) the name Sibhion is normally pronounced -shiv-on, but in the north it would more properly be pronounced shew-on, the 'bh' being the differance. Certian Geaolge courses have actually changed the spelling to Suin (fada u can't find on this keyboard) I'll add this is very rearly used outside of the Conradh. Also in the North Sinn Feinn is Sinn Fhein pronounced Shin hain this is never used. Is it possable that these differances could have caused mistakes/misidentifacations?
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2012, 06:28:44 PM »

Dubhthach, do we know which dialect(s) of Irish were used in these accounts as sometimes pronoucition is quite different, eg in Ulster -Gaelic (Donegal) the name Sibhion is normally pronounced -shiv-on, but in the north it would more properly be pronounced shew-on, the 'bh' being the differance. Certian Geaolge courses have actually changed the spelling to Suin (fada u can't find on this keyboard) I'll add this is very rearly used outside of the Conradh. Also in the North Sinn Feinn is Sinn Fhein pronounced Shin hain this is never used. Is it possable that these differances could have caused mistakes/misidentifacations?

Well bh you see technically is suppose to be pronunced as v when slender as w when broad. However generally what happens is that in munster it's always pronunced as v -- in ulster nearly always as w.

Another prime example of a dialectical difference is fact that n after a consonant (other then s) is pronunced as r in Connacht and Ulster. For example: Cnoc (pronunced as Croc by native Galwegian/Donegal speakers).  Likewise Mna is pronunced as Mra -- again "school irish" uses munster pronunciation.

One feature you hear in Gweedore speakers is they pronunce Seacht and Ocht with a r like sound instead of ch, so seart, orrt

Alot of these changes though are relatively recent in the language, the language that was used during the medieval period was very much a "high literary" language, such as like "Received pronuncation" in english (or "general american"). The fact that most Irish people learn irish in school results in all sorts of extra influence, for example both phonological and idiomatic influences from english.

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A.D.
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« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2012, 09:03:02 PM »

''School Irish' (what my kids learnt at secondary school) is not so much different but seems to make thing awkward compaired to my kids who were bought up speaking Irish as a 1st language through Gealscoil which is taught by people who learned to speak it in the Gealteacht then learned the litary side of things. 'School Irish' seems the other way about. Ulster  Irish is claimed to be the 'oldest' form of Irish is there any truth in that?   
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2012, 05:05:42 AM »

Well obviously "school Irish" is probably a bad term to describe it, I think the linguists would say "L2" (Second language speaker). In such terminology an L1 speaker is a native/home speaker.

Most Irish people are of course now L1 English speakers and learn Irish as L2. (Such as say how French people learn english as L2). As a result often their L1 language (english in this case) has a influence on how they speak Irish (L2). For example direct translation of idioms form English when there already exists idioms in Irish that cover that. Likewise problems with phonological features in Irish that don't exist in English (Irish slender R, broad CH, DH, GH etc.) or bringing in sounds from english.

The problem is of course as you mention down to teaching system. The heavy emphasis on writing produces students who as a result have rather poor levels of spoken language (or even lack confidence speaking). It's interesting how they've now changed the Leaving Cert marking system so that 40% of mark is now for the Oral.

As for oldest form, well I would imagine that's like arguing which is older, cockney or Brummie (Bermingham) when it comes to English. In reality dialects diverge based on geography obviously they all share a common root. Irish in the 11th century would have sounded somewhat different form modern Irish. For example:

th -> same as english th in this
dh -> same as english th in that

Both of those sounds were actually lost in Irish by the 13th century, however the writing system been fixed they remained as "fossils" so now adays:
th -> pronunced as h
dh -> pronunced as gh (like Dutch G when hard, like y in yellow when slender)

Regarding schools your standard child will only get about 1,200 hours of Irish language contact over their education, to be fluent ideally you need about 5,000 hours. If they child goes to both a Gaelscoil (primary) and Gaelchólaiste (secondary) they end up with about 10,000 hours language contact! I was reading in paper today about kids on language courses in the Gaeltacht -- someone calculated that the amount of language contact they receive over 3 weeks is equivalent to an entire year in school. That and it's very much a system based on speaking/participation in class etc.

As for Donegal Irish, I remember in school we used to dread if a Donegal speaker would come on tape in Aural exam. However funnily enough after listening enough on TG4/RnaG I've no problem now. I think this further points to issue in school system which is based on rote learning. Ideally alot more emphasis should be put on using stuff like actual media recordings on native speakers (from TG4, RnaG). If I had my choice about it the Leaving Cert marking would on lines of:
  • 50% Oral
  • 20% Aural
  • 30% written
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 05:07:48 AM by Dubhthach » Logged
A.D.
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« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2012, 10:35:49 AM »

My personal opinion is that children benifit most from learnig through sining nursery rhyme's and play (acting out the scenarios). Actually it seems to work better for adults too especially when they get stuck e.g. when someone can't get around something like put-up the light (in Irish) means turn on the light, searching for the correct phrase underminds the self-confidece and leads to frustration.
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