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rms2
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« Reply #75 on: August 14, 2012, 08:13:23 PM »

Regarding Jones, the putative L21- Z245+ L459+, what is his Ysearch ID, if he has one?

5FRF8

Thanks!
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« Reply #76 on: August 14, 2012, 10:06:02 PM »

Regarding Jones, the putative L21- Z245+ L459+, what is his Ysearch ID, if he has one?
5FRF8
He's been posting on the P312 Yahoo Group. I thnk he'd like to see more P312* guys test for L459 and Z245. I would too, but I think we need to see the retest of his L21 first. L459 and Z245 have a bit of challeng on their own. We don't know if there is separation of lineages between the two so really one should test for both if L21-.
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stoneman
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« Reply #77 on: August 18, 2012, 08:05:03 AM »

There is as much U106  in South Western England and Wales and more in Western Scotland than in the East.These areas were all settled by Celts.



Regarding L21 in England I believe I got these figures from Busby (supplementary data), it's been awhile though, I'm just gonna copy and paste from other forum. It's evident that there is a West/East cline regarding both L21 and U106 in England. It's also interesting how in North-Wales there is an obvious major drop in R1b in general.

Quote
West Ireland -- 67 samples
L21 = 73.1%
U106 = 4.5%
U152 = 1.5%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 7.5%


South Ireland -- 89 samples
L21 = 74.2%
U106 = 3.4%
U152 = 1.1%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 7.9%


East Ireland -- 149 samples
L21 = 71.1%
U106 = 6.7%
U152 = 4%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 7.4%


North Ireland -- 72 samples
L21 = 79.2%
U106 = 4.2%
U152 = 1.4%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 4.2%


West Scotland -- 21 samples
L21 = 66.7%
U106 = 9.5%
U152 = 1.4%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = --/--


North West Scotland -- 80 samples
L21 = 48.8%
U106 = 6.3%
U152 = --/--
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 11.3%


North East Scotland -- 67 samples
L21 = 52.2%
U106 = 6.3%
U152 = 19.4%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 6.0%


North Wales -- 120 samples
L21 = 45%
U106 = 9.2%
U152 = 7.5%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 17.5%


South Wales -- 9 samples
L21 = 55.6%
U106 = 22.2%
U152 = --/--
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 11.1%


England Northwest -- 47 samples
L21 = 40.4%
U106 = 21.3%
U152 = 6.4%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 10.6%


England Southwest -- 48 samples
L21 = 37.5%
U106 = 25.0%
U152 = 8.3%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 6.3%


Central England -- 165 samples
L21 = 16.4%
U106 = 18.2%
U152 = 9.7%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 15.2%


East England -- 172 samples
L21 = 12.8%
U106 = 25.6%
U152 = 8.1%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 17.4%


England Southeast -- 52 samples
L21 = 15.4%
U106 = 26.9%
U152 = 15.4%
P312 (non L21/ non U152) = 21.2%

Obviously L21 probably forms a pluarity of R1b in what we now call England, though it's quite obvious that in Eastern part of country that U106 often outnumbers it. U152 also seems to have an eastern bias, perhaps connect to spread during Norman period (really need a study using alot more finer-grained SNP's)
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Mkk
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« Reply #78 on: August 18, 2012, 08:17:31 AM »

Stoneman,

All of Britain was settled by celts at one time. This still doesn't hide the fact that u106 in Britain reaches it's highest frequencies in areas known to have been the most heavily settled by Germanics. The presence of u106 elsewhere is accounted for by the known migration of Scots and English to western Britain.
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stoneman
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« Reply #79 on: August 18, 2012, 10:10:49 AM »

What Germanics? Are you refering to the Anglo-Saxon invasions that never happened? Wales and Cornwall are not part of England.
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rms2
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« Reply #80 on: August 18, 2012, 10:19:44 AM »

Stoneman,

All of Britain was settled by celts at one time. This still doesn't hide the fact that u106 in Britain reaches it's highest frequencies in areas known to have been the most heavily settled by Germanics. The presence of u106 elsewhere is accounted for by the known migration of Scots and English to western Britain.


True. Also notice the proportion of L21 to U106 in the areas cited by stoneman.

Busby's West Scotland sample had a U106 frequency of 9.5% compared with an L21 frequency of 66.7%. Western Scotland is known historically for Viking settlement, which, in addition to later English input, might account for that U106 frequency.

Busby's "England Southwest" had a U106 frequency of 25% compared with an L21 frequency of 37.5%. Southwestern England is still England, after all, and was part of the Saxon kingdom of Wessex. Given the distribution patterns in the rest of Britain and on the Continent, it's not likely the U106 in "England Southwest" is Celtic.

In Busby's Welsh samples the frequency of L21 is from two and a half to nearly five times greater than that of U106. In North Wales, U106 came in at 9.2% to L21's 45%. In South Wales, it was 22.2% U106 to 55.6% L21. The English are known to have settled in Wales. Apparently their influence was greater in the south than in the north.

Once again, the distribution patterns and clines tell the story. In general, U106 is more frequent in the south and east of Britain and declines as one moves north and west. Just the reverse is true for L21.

The clades of y haplogroup I thought to be Germanic have the same general cline as U106. There appears to be a correlation between them that further supports the notion that U106 in the British Isles is of Germanic origin.

On the other hand, L21 prevails in those parts of the British Isles where the Celts held on longest. In what is now England it appears to represent the survival of native Britons.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 10:47:41 AM by rms2 » Logged

Jdean
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« Reply #81 on: August 18, 2012, 11:28:09 AM »

What Germanics? Are you refering to the Anglo-Saxon invasions that never happened? Wales and Cornwall are not part of England.

Seriously if your geography isn’t that good you can get lots of help via Google Earth :)
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Jdean
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« Reply #82 on: August 18, 2012, 11:35:55 AM »


In Busby's Welsh samples the frequency of L21 is from two and a half to nearly five times greater than that of U106. In North Wales, U106 came in at 9.2% to L21's 45%. In South Wales, it was 22.2% U106 to 55.6% L21. The English are known to have settled in Wales. Apparently their influence was greater in the south than in the north.


S. Wales is heavily industrialised and attracted people from all over the place from the start of the Industrial Revelation.
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Mkk
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« Reply #83 on: August 18, 2012, 12:29:25 PM »

What Germanics? Are you refering to the Anglo-Saxon invasions that never happened? Wales and Cornwall are not part of England.
I think history has something to say to you.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #84 on: August 18, 2012, 01:24:43 PM »


In Busby's Welsh samples the frequency of L21 is from two and a half to nearly five times greater than that of U106. In North Wales, U106 came in at 9.2% to L21's 45%. In South Wales, it was 22.2% U106 to 55.6% L21. The English are known to have settled in Wales. Apparently their influence was greater in the south than in the north.


S. Wales is heavily industrialised and attracted people from all over the place from the start of the Industrial Revelation.

Not only that but part of South Wales was heavily settled during early medieval period. So much so that it was known as "Little England Beyond Wales"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_England_beyond_Wales

Not only that there is a linguist boundary in South Wales called the Landsker Line (map in above wiki article). This has existed since medieval times and reflects the linguistic border between English and Welsh languages. Of course the other thing to point out in that study is they only had a sample of 9 for "South Wales" that's way too low to imply anything in my opinion, you really need a sample size of at least 50.

In comparison in Eastern Britain the ratio between L21 and U106 is very different. For example "Eastern England" has twice as much U106 as L21. What's missing of course is the fact that there is significant non-R1b haplogroups in Eastern Britain. In particular Haplogroup I1.

It wouldn't surprise me if "England Southwest" includes Cornwall, given that most people regarded it as part of the "West Country" of England when in reality it's not really part of England at all.
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Jdean
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« Reply #85 on: August 18, 2012, 01:40:28 PM »


In Busby's Welsh samples the frequency of L21 is from two and a half to nearly five times greater than that of U106. In North Wales, U106 came in at 9.2% to L21's 45%. In South Wales, it was 22.2% U106 to 55.6% L21. The English are known to have settled in Wales. Apparently their influence was greater in the south than in the north.


S. Wales is heavily industrialised and attracted people from all over the place from the start of the Industrial Revelation.

Not only that but part of South Wales was heavily settled during early medieval period. So much so that it was known as "Little England Beyond Wales"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_England_beyond_Wales

Not only that there is a linguist boundary in South Wales called the Landsker Line (map in above wiki article). This has existed since medieval times and reflects the linguistic border between English and Welsh languages. Of course the other thing to point out in that study is they only had a sample of 9 for "South Wales" that's way too low to imply anything in my opinion, you really need a sample size of at least 50.

In comparison in Eastern Britain the ratio between L21 and U106 is very different. For example "Eastern England" has twice as much U106 as L21. What's missing of course is the fact that there is significant non-R1b haplogroups in Eastern Britain. In particular Haplogroup I1.

It wouldn't surprise me if "England Southwest" includes Cornwall, given that most people regarded it as part of the "West Country" of England when in reality it's not really part of England at all.


I think it's a lot more accurate to say there are some people who say Cornwall isn't part of England rather than the other way round and personally I've never met one (  in fact I've just had to Google it to even find out it was an opinion) and my sister lives on the Devon Cornwall boarder !!!
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rms2
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« Reply #86 on: August 18, 2012, 01:45:55 PM »

The Busby sample size for South Wales was only nine. That is much too small a sample. The North Wales sample was 120. Much better.

Busby's map coordinates for the location of their "England Southwest" sample land it in Exeter in Devon.

There was plenty of Saxon settlement there. It was part of the Saxon kingdom of Wessex.

And of course Cornwall is a part of England. It just held out and kept its Celtic character longer than points farther east.
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stoneman
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« Reply #87 on: August 18, 2012, 01:55:47 PM »

The Welsh and Cornish people consider themselves Celts. It is the English themselves that say there was no wipe out and no invasion. The Romans didnt wipe out the Iceni eventhough they beat the Romans in several battles. Sutton Hoo is supposed to be a Saxon grave and why were Saxons buried with artefacts covered in Celtic designs?
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rms2
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« Reply #88 on: August 18, 2012, 02:05:27 PM »

The Welsh and Cornish people consider themselves Celts. It is the English themselves that say there was no wipe out and no invasion. The Romans didnt wipe out the Iceni eventhough they beat the Romans in several battles. Sutton Hoo is supposed to be a Saxon grave and why were Saxons buried with artefacts covered in Celtic designs?

This is really the wrong thread for more obsessing about U106 in the Isles.

Busby didn't publish any results for Cornwall, the South Wales sample size was only nine (yet still mostly L21+), and the North Wales sample was only 9.2% U106, easily accounted for by historical English input.

I suspect Cornwall would have a very high frequency of L21 relative to U106, but I don't know of any studies available right now to back that up.

I'm not sure the designs on the Sutton Hoo artifacts can be characterized as "Celtic", but certainly continental Germans and Scandinavians were influenced by the Celts, their longtime neighbors.

So, let's do this stuff on some other thread, okay?
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« Reply #89 on: August 18, 2012, 02:12:50 PM »

Quote
The Welsh and Cornish people consider themselves Celts. It is the English themselves that say there was no wipe out and no invasion.
Yes, they "consider" themselves Celts, but Celtic has taken on a new meaning to symbolize the "fringe" of west Britain. It's part of their identity. This doesn't negate the known fact that English people and Scottish people are known to have migrated to these areas, and Germanic peoles from across the North sea are known to have settled in Scotland and England. Infact England is named after the Angles who came from the "thin" part of Germany just below Denmark.

And again with your claims there was no anglo-saxon migration/invasion of Britain. Please pick up a history book.

If you want to debate U106 in the Isles, bump the "is U106 all Germanic..." thread.

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« Reply #90 on: August 19, 2012, 04:06:35 AM »

I wish I could recall the piece in its entirety, Rich. Sadly, I only retained the gist of it. I don't think it was as detailed as mentioning L21 etc - more concerned with a feeling that the Irish, Welsh & Scots were often considered by themselves (& others) as Celts, yet huge numbers of English Celts had been somehow forgotten.
Cheers,
Bob

Ah. Sad but true, I think.

In that case I think advances in y-dna testing may help reverse that. Not too long ago some folks were making the case that the Anglo-Saxons had annihilated the Britons in what is now England.

Kind of hard to argue that now.

Actually there was this article in the Dailymail!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2005829/Half-Britons-German-blood-geneticists-reveal.html
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« Reply #91 on: August 19, 2012, 04:36:12 AM »

Anyone interested in English migration into Wales should read "The Anglicisation of Wales" by Colin Williams. It's on google books I think.

As has been mentioned, he points out that Industrial South Wales recevied large numbers of English migrants from 1860 onwards, many of whom preferred to settle in the coastal ports of Cardiff, Swansea and Newport.

The seaside resorts along the North Wales coast have also attracted English migrants during the last 60 years or so. Places like Rhyl, Prestatyn, Llandudno, Abergele. I think a lot of Scousers went there on holiday and forgot to go home!

Undoubtedly, these migrations impacted on the y-dna of Wales. Surnames are a good clue because it's usually very easy to distinguish Welsh and English surnames.


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« Reply #92 on: August 19, 2012, 04:52:04 AM »

I wish I could recall the piece in its entirety, Rich. Sadly, I only retained the gist of it. I don't think it was as detailed as mentioning L21 etc - more concerned with a feeling that the Irish, Welsh & Scots were often considered by themselves (& others) as Celts, yet huge numbers of English Celts had been somehow forgotten.
Cheers,
Bob

Ah. Sad but true, I think.

In that case I think advances in y-dna testing may help reverse that. Not too long ago some folks were making the case that the Anglo-Saxons had annihilated the Britons in what is now England.

Kind of hard to argue that now.

Actually there was this article in the Dailymail!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2005829/Half-Britons-German-blood-geneticists-reveal.html
It only says HALF, which seems like a reasonable estimate to me of the post-Roman Germanic contribution to Britain.

This study was reported a long time ago but the scientific paper, if their is one, hasn't appeared as of yet.
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« Reply #93 on: August 19, 2012, 04:54:18 AM »

If you look at a relief map of Britain, it's interesting to note that the Pennines act as a natural barrier between the east & west of northern England, or potentially, Anglo-Saxon (east) & Brythonic Celt (west).  If you draw a line following the higher ground from Derby down to Poole (in Dorset), that seems to be where 6th C maps show the split tbetween the Anglo-Saxons & Brythonic Celts in the south.
The Welsh mountainous regions obviously made attack by various invaders difficult. Historically, it was easier to eradicate an enemy on flat, open terrain. Mountains are a great bolt-hole to defend when under pressure. I think the mountains of Cumbria were of similar  benefit to  Brythonic Celts there, when Angles , Danes & others moved into the region.
My view of the upcoming POBI results? I'd guess there'll be some sweeping statements & maps showing clearly defined tribal groupings. I'm concerned that the map they released showed England, south of Cumbria & Northumberland, being almost completely red, with the exception of  Devon & Cornwall.
The Welsh map appears bizarre to me. I can understand the Pembrokeshire presence of Flemish & Normans (if that's what the map is indicating). However, surely there should be very similar DNA found in the western counties of England & Wales generally? To have only tested Anglesey, Pembrokeshire & some hot spots on the Anglo-Welsh northern & southern borders seems very remiss! Surely the Welsh in the interior would have DNA more representative of ancient Welsh DNA , so of  greater relevance to the country than areas near ports & borders that traditionally attract a more mobile population? Also, shouldn't we be seeing some similarity in  DNA results when comparing Cornwall & Wales?
Finally, what the hell are we supposed to make of the Scottish map?!
I hope POBI have only released appetizers so far, & that they have far more to offer.
Cheers,
Bob
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 05:51:24 AM by Castlebob » Logged

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« Reply #94 on: August 19, 2012, 05:15:39 AM »

Anyone interested in English migration into Wales should read "The Anglicisation of Wales" by Colin Williams. It's on google books I think.

As has been mentioned, he points out that Industrial South Wales recevied large numbers of English migrants from 1860 onwards, many of whom preferred to settle in the coastal ports of Cardiff, Swansea and Newport.

The seaside resorts along the North Wales coast have also attracted English migrants during the last 60 years or so. Places like Rhyl, Prestatyn, Llandudno, Abergele. I think a lot of Scousers went there on holiday and forgot to go home!

Undoubtedly, these migrations impacted on the y-dna of Wales. Surnames are a good clue because it's usually very easy to distinguish Welsh and English surnames.




True but you can't rely on that 100%, Welsh names are common in the Marches too and I've seen old examples of patronymic naming in Herefordshire and Shropshire, though presumably this suggests they were Welsh families originally. I’ve came across a Harris family that ended up in the Pontypool area from Somerset for example.

Of course this is still the Western and therefore more Celtic side of England, and at a guess it's these areas that a reasonably large majority of the English that settled in S. Wales came from anyway.

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« Reply #95 on: August 19, 2012, 06:13:35 AM »

Anyone interested in English migration into Wales should read "The Anglicisation of Wales" by Colin Williams. It's on google books I think.

As has been mentioned, he points out that Industrial South Wales recevied large numbers of English migrants from 1860 onwards, many of whom preferred to settle in the coastal ports of Cardiff, Swansea and Newport.

The seaside resorts along the North Wales coast have also attracted English migrants during the last 60 years or so. Places like Rhyl, Prestatyn, Llandudno, Abergele. I think a lot of Scousers went there on holiday and forgot to go home!

Undoubtedly, these migrations impacted on the y-dna of Wales. Surnames are a good clue because it's usually very easy to distinguish Welsh and English surnames.



The reverse may be true, too. I wouldn't mind betting that the Industrial Revolution saw thousands of Welsh heading to Birmingham. That is another reason why I'm amazed the POBI map isn't showing more similarities in DNA between Wales & some western English counties.
Cheers,
Bob
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« Reply #96 on: August 19, 2012, 06:55:41 AM »

Anyone interested in English migration into Wales should read "The Anglicisation of Wales" by Colin Williams. It's on google books I think.

As has been mentioned, he points out that Industrial South Wales recevied large numbers of English migrants from 1860 onwards, many of whom preferred to settle in the coastal ports of Cardiff, Swansea and Newport.

The seaside resorts along the North Wales coast have also attracted English migrants during the last 60 years or so. Places like Rhyl, Prestatyn, Llandudno, Abergele. I think a lot of Scousers went there on holiday and forgot to go home!

Undoubtedly, these migrations impacted on the y-dna of Wales. Surnames are a good clue because it's usually very easy to distinguish Welsh and English surnames.



The reverse may be true, too. I wouldn't mind betting that the Industrial Revolution saw thousands of Welsh heading to Birmingham. That is another reason why I'm amazed the POBI map isn't showing more similarities in DNA between Wales & some western English counties.
Cheers,
Bob

I suspect they'd avoid places like Birmingham but quite a lot of families from my Radnorshire lines had people that ended up there.
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« Reply #97 on: August 19, 2012, 06:57:11 AM »

Anyone interested in English migration into Wales should read "The Anglicisation of Wales" by Colin Williams. It's on google books I think.

As has been mentioned, he points out that Industrial South Wales recevied large numbers of English migrants from 1860 onwards, many of whom preferred to settle in the coastal ports of Cardiff, Swansea and Newport.

The seaside resorts along the North Wales coast have also attracted English migrants during the last 60 years or so. Places like Rhyl, Prestatyn, Llandudno, Abergele. I think a lot of Scousers went there on holiday and forgot to go home!

Undoubtedly, these migrations impacted on the y-dna of Wales. Surnames are a good clue because it's usually very easy to distinguish Welsh and English surnames.




True but you can't rely on that 100%, Welsh names are common in the Marches too and I've seen old examples of patronymic naming in Herefordshire and Shropshire, though presumably this suggests they were Welsh families originally. I’ve came across a Harris family that ended up in the Pontypool area from Somerset for example.

Of course this is still the Western and therefore more Celtic side of England, and at a guess it's these areas that a reasonably large majority of the English that settled in S. Wales came from anyway.



I read somewhere that most of the English migrants to South Wales were from Gloucestershire and Somerset, so historically part of the Saxon Kingdom of Wessex.

I suppose for 19th century industrial migrants, it made geographic sense as South Wales is just across the Bristol Channel.


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« Reply #98 on: August 19, 2012, 07:10:22 AM »

I read somewhere that most of the English migrants to South Wales were from Gloucestershire and Somerset, so historically part of the Saxon Kingdom of Wessex.

I suppose for 19th century industrial migrants, it made geographic sense as South Wales is just across the Bristol Channel.


Almost none of my English ancestry (approximately half) came from further north or east than Staffordshire and no further south than Somerset, the Welsh side is mostly S. Wales with nothing from N. Wales that I've found yet.
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« Reply #99 on: August 19, 2012, 07:43:39 AM »

I certainly think we'd have a better idea of people's origins if we ignored the post-railways era. I know huge numbers of people from the Home Counties & beyond  jumped the train to London. This was mainly due to rural work drying up, plus better wages.
As ever, we'd all be helped by seeing some srious data from Denmark & N France & elsewhere. It's also sad how few people venture beyond a basic 37 marker Y-DNA test. All very frustrating!
Cheers,
Bob
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