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Author Topic: Is L21 irrelevant? and the importance of the Welsh...  (Read 5797 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: August 11, 2012, 11:25:31 PM »

I just want to provoke a little interest before I post some information, but it is true that I don't think L21 is a critical SNP to test for given the phylogeny as we understand it. I'm not saying it isn't important, but just not the difference-maker it was. I am assuming Thomas Krahn's (and FTDNA's) assessment is correct.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 11:26:49 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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df.reynolds
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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2012, 12:04:31 AM »

I just want to provoke a little interest before I post some information, but it is true that I don't think L21 is a critical SNP to test for given the phylogeny as we understand it. I'm not saying it isn't important, but just not the difference-maker it was. I am assuming Thomas Krahn's (and FTDNA's) assessment is correct.

If one looks at the current L21+ results, there are five DF63+ and ten DF13- DF63-.  A small fraction of 1%.

Seems like the real interesting question is that for a haplotype that has no affinity to prior results, where does one start? DF13? P312? And if one is testing the subclades of P312, then it is L459 and Z245 of interest, not L21.  Seems like that unless one has already tested DF13- DF63- L459+/Z245+ P312+, that there would be no reason/benefit to testing L21.

--david
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2012, 01:04:55 AM »

 Seems like that unless one has already tested DF13- DF63- L459+/Z245+ P312+, that there would be no reason/benefit to testing L21.

Yes, that is what I'm saying. The importance of L21 is just a happenstance of the sequence of SNP discovery.  From a P312* (really I mean P312+ U152- DF27-) perspective the important SNP is L459 and/or Z245. If you are L459+ then you should probably jump to DF13 since there are few L21+ DF13- people.

If you are L459+, and only if you are DF13-, then should you backup and test for L21.

As far as the Welsh, I'm detecting a trend that I want to share. Its speculative, but I have an affinity to them anyway, with a name like Walsh. LOL.

...but I do have some analysis.  BTW, its not really the Welsh, its the Old Britons that are important.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 03:27:53 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2012, 02:17:50 AM »

I have a fondness for L21, I was part of the first group. I also correctly predicted that M222 would be L21+ (so did Vince T.)

I'll always hold L21 close to my heart...
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Castlebob
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« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2012, 04:09:56 AM »

When I first got involved in DNA testing, a huge amount of importance was placed on DYS391. People seemed to assume a score of 10 was crucial - forgetting that it  had the option to have mutated from 11.
Then L21 raised its head & triggered off numerous theories, some of which are now  falling by the wayside.
I read a piece by someone recently complaining that the descendants of the Brythonic Celts of England & Scotland had somehow had their Celtic roots snatched from them - submerged by others claiming exclusivity. I feel some sympathy for his view as common sense suggests that much of the western half of the population of  England & the southern third of Scotland must still have large percentages of Brythonic Celt  in them. 
The Picts are another tribe who seem to have been shunted to the margins. There seems to be a view that they were centred in the north east of Scotland, forgetting that Pictish remains were found along the Anglo-Scottish border, too. Were all those in the south wiped out by the Irish (Scotti) invaders? Surely some survived in the more inaccessible parts of the country?
Cheers,
Bob
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2012, 06:01:23 AM »

When I first got involved in DNA testing, a huge amount of importance was placed on DYS391. People seemed to assume a score of 10 was crucial - forgetting that it  had the option to have mutated from 11.
Then L21 raised its head & triggered off numerous theories, some of which are now  falling by the wayside.
I read a piece by someone recently complaining that the descendants of the Brythonic Celts of England & Scotland had somehow had their Celtic roots snatched from them - submerged by others claiming exclusivity. I feel some sympathy for his view as common sense suggests that much of the western half of the population of  England & the southern third of Scotland must still have large percentages of Brythonic Celt  in them. 
The Picts are another tribe who seem to have been shunted to the margins. There seems to be a view that they were centred in the north east of Scotland, forgetting that Pictish remains were found along the Anglo-Scottish border, too. Were all those in the south wiped out by the Irish (Scotti) invaders? Surely some survived in the more inaccessible parts of the country?
Cheers,
Bob

Pictish remains found in the southern third of Scotland are likely related to raids or refugees from internal battles.  The evidence of historical, linguitic and archaeological remains is pretty clear that the Picts lands lay north of the Forth-Clyde line, roughly speaking.  The area they clearly lost to the Scots early was the lands north of the Clyde (roughly speaking).  There are traces of P-Celtic even in the west Highlands but they are very fragementory now.

Funny thing is you get people who identify with the Gaels (living sncient language), the Picts (the mystery factor) and Vikings but modern Scots do not tend to historically identify with the Britons even though they occupied the southern third of the country from the beginning of history.  They get a bit of a raw deal in terms of who modern Scots identify as ancestors.   
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2012, 06:09:22 AM »

 Seems like that unless one has already tested DF13- DF63- L459+/Z245+ P312+, that there would be no reason/benefit to testing L21.

Yes, that is what I'm saying. The importance of L21 is just a happenstance of the sequence of SNP discovery.  From a P312* (really I mean P312+ U152- DF27-) perspective the important SNP is L459 and/or Z245. If you are L459+ then you should probably jump to DF13 since there are few L21+ DF13- people.

If you are L459+, and only if you are DF13-, then should you backup and test for L21.

As far as the Welsh, I'm detecting a trend that I want to share. Its speculative, but I have an affinity to them anyway, with a name like Walsh. LOL.

...but I do have some analysis.  BTW, its not really the Welsh, its the Old Britons that are important.



Pray tell!
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Castlebob
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« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2012, 06:19:22 AM »

QUOTE FROM ALAN:
Scots do not tend to historically identify with the Britons even though they occupied the southern third of the country from the beginning of history.  They get a bit of a raw deal in terms of who modern Scots identify as ancestors.    
[/quote]

Very true, Alan. I got involved in Y-DNA testing to find the truth re tribal origins etc, yet I got the feeling from another forum (the now defunct DNA-Forum) that people just wanted to re-inforce a preconceived view of what they'd like to be.
I'm open to being whatever science proves & will gladly focus on that. I'm staggered that Brythonic Celts are so ignored. I recall reading that some experts reckon at least  35% of the British population may well be of Brythonic stock.
Cheers,
Bob
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 07:34:13 AM by Castlebob » Logged

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Castlebob
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« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2012, 07:01:21 AM »


I can't wait to see the 'Old Britons' analysis, Mike. As soon a possible, please! Also, there must be many of Brythonic Celt stock whose ancestors never set foot in Wales, so useful to see the similarities in the DNA between all the Celtic tribes.
Cheers,
Bob
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 07:37:10 AM by Castlebob » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2012, 08:45:28 AM »

My sense is that L21 is very relevant because a large number of men comprise it and it has a pretty definite distribution in Europe. Z245/L459 (xL21), while potentially phylogenetically significant, appears to be numerically trivial. We have one guy, Jones of Wales (whom I suspect may be part of Mike's Welsh speculation), who may be Z245+ L459+ and L21-, if that L21- result holds. That's not much.

DF13 is important, but it is its position within L21 that makes it so.

DF63, while under represented at this point, is still way ahead of Z245/L459 (xL21), and may get a boost from increased continental testing. The same could be said of DF13- DF63-.

I have more to say but I've run out of time!

« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 08:45:59 AM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2012, 09:46:54 AM »

My sense is that L21 is very relevant because a large number of men comprise it and it has a pretty definite distribution in Europe. Z245/L459 (xL21), while potentially phylogenetically significant, appears to be numerically trivial. We have one guy, Jones of Wales (whom I suspect may be part of Mike's Welsh speculation), who may be Z245+ L459+ and L21-, if that L21- result holds. That's not much.

DF13 is important, but it is its position within L21 that makes it so.

DF63, while under represented at this point, is still way ahead of Z245/L459 (xL21), and may get a boost from increased continental testing. The same could be said of DF13- DF63-.

I have more to say but I've run out of time!



My overall impression of L21XDF13 'per head tested' is that it is hugely more common in France/Pyrennees than it is in Britain.  On a completely different level really.  It also seems to me that L21XDF13 on the continent has a very similar distirbution (except the Rhineland) as L21 on the continent has i.e. it is strongest in the western half of France from Normandy to the Basque areas.  The usual problem being of course that isles ancestry in overrepresented by a couple of decimal points in terms of testing.  I mentally multiply a French total by 100.  Two or three French hits is the equivalent of about 200 in the isles.  Maybe that is a slight exageration but I think it is valid.  It is also true that presence/asbsence of a very rare group will show in the isles long before it will show on the continent, even if it is far more common there.  Anyway that is my pre-emptive strike just in case Mike is coming up with a Welsh origin for L21 hypothesis :0)

EDIT-I have to say if L21 did turn out to orignate in the isles I would immediately be then interested in where on the continent the P312* that got to the isles came from.  My primary interest has always been where on the continent the isles R1b came from so that would not change except my interest would turn to P312*
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 01:34:03 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Heber
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« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 10:35:32 AM »

An extract fro the "Scots, A Genetic Journey", deals with the DNA of the Picts.

“A marker has been identified that is essentially unique to Scotland and rarely found elsewhere. It is known as R1b-str47 or R1b-Pict and around 10% of Scottish men carry it. In our towns and villages 250,000 Picts are quietly going about their daily lives. The distribution of the marker broadly matches the Pictish territory and where later incursions such as Dalriada Gaels and the Vikings overlaid it, the numbers are diluted.It is well represented in the east of Scotland above the Forth but much less so in Northern and Western Isles. R1b-Pict is at least 3,000 years old and possibly even older and is a subgroup of S145 (L21)”.

Moffat and Wilson also equate Old Welsh with Brythonic and describe it as being spoken from Wales to Strathclyde. As regards the relevance of L21, it is still the primary root clade with DF13 being an important sub clade.

"Cumbria and Cumberland are names derived from Old English Cumber, a term used in Anglo-Saxon Northumbria to describe the native Britons. The latter, of course, were a Celtic people who had once inhabited the whole island of Britain. A large number of Britons in the far North were known as ‘Picts’ from the late 3rd century AD, if not before. Most of the rest, living south of a line drawn between modern Edinburgh and Glasgow, were (more or less) ruled by Rome until the early 5th century. After c.410, the population of what had once been Roman Britain was gradually conquered or assimilated by the Anglo-Saxons or ‘English’ whose ancestors had come from Germany. The so-called ‘Anglo-Saxon Conquest’ was drawn out over five hundred years but led eventually to the creation of England. By c.900, at the height of the Viking Age, only two regions of Britain still remained under native ‘British’ control. One of these was Wales, at that time a patchwork of small kingdoms. The other was a single realm located in what are now southwest Scotland and northwest England, with borders reaching from Loch Lomond in the north to Penrith in the south. To the Anglo-Saxons of neighbouring Northumbria this kingdom was ‘Cumber-land’ or ‘Cumbra-land’, a land inhabited by Britons. In Latinised form the name was ‘Cumbria’."

http://senchus.wordpress.com/category/britons/page/2/

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R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2012, 10:48:47 AM »

An extract fro the "Scots, A Genetic Journey", deals with the DNA of the Picts.

“A marker has been identified that is essentially unique to Scotland and rarely found elsewhere. It is known as R1b-str47 or R1b-Pict and around 10% of Scottish men carry it. In our towns and villages 250,000 Picts are quietly going about their daily lives. The distribution of the marker broadly matches the Pictish territory and where later incursions such as Dalriada Gaels and the Vikings overlaid it, the numbers are diluted.It is well represented in the east of Scotland above the Forth but much less so in Northern and Western Isles. R1b-Pict is at least 3,000 years old and possibly even older and is a subgroup of S145 (L21)”.

Moffat and Wilson also equate Old Welsh with Brythonic and describe it as being spoken from Wales to Strathclyde. As regards the relevance of L21, it is still the primary root clade with DF13 being an important sub clade.

"Cumbria and Cumberland are names derived from Old English Cumber, a term used in Anglo-Saxon Northumbria to describe the native Britons. The latter, of course, were a Celtic people who had once inhabited the whole island of Britain. A large number of Britons in the far North were known as ‘Picts’ from the late 3rd century AD, if not before. Most of the rest, living south of a line drawn between modern Edinburgh and Glasgow, were (more or less) ruled by Rome until the early 5th century. After c.410, the population of what had once been Roman Britain was gradually conquered or assimilated by the Anglo-Saxons or ‘English’ whose ancestors had come from Germany. The so-called ‘Anglo-Saxon Conquest’ was drawn out over five hundred years but led eventually to the creation of England. By c.900, at the height of the Viking Age, only two regions of Britain still remained under native ‘British’ control. One of these was Wales, at that time a patchwork of small kingdoms. The other was a single realm located in what are now southwest Scotland and northwest England, with borders reaching from Loch Lomond in the north to Penrith in the south. To the Anglo-Saxons of neighbouring Northumbria this kingdom was ‘Cumber-land’ or ‘Cumbra-land’, a land inhabited by Britons. In Latinised form the name was ‘Cumbria’."

http://senchus.wordpress.com/category/britons/page/2/


Problem with their R1b Pict marker is it has a distribution that makes it look a better fit for the Scots.  I know distibution is a bad measure but I think the origin of this cluster is still an open question.  The original Irish Dalriadan kingdom lines died out in the 12th century and not a single surname in Ireland can now be linked with the pre-Scottish migration phase of Dalriada in Ireland.  So, I think this is never going to be proved.  However I suspect the Picts left much more than a 10% legacy in Scotland but at the same time I am not at all convinced that the cluster that is labelled Pict is Pictish.  It is highest in Argyll, Skye, clans who are tradidtionally especially linked to Dalriada like the McGregors etc.  Just doesnt fit to me.
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vineviz
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« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2012, 11:00:59 AM »

Another problem with the "R1b-Pict" marker is that there is no such marker.
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rms2
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« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2012, 12:04:52 PM »

My sense is that L21 is very relevant because a large number of men comprise it and it has a pretty definite distribution in Europe. Z245/L459 (xL21), while potentially phylogenetically significant, appears to be numerically trivial. We have one guy, Jones of Wales (whom I suspect may be part of Mike's Welsh speculation), who may be Z245+ L459+ and L21-, if that L21- result holds. That's not much.

DF13 is important, but it is its position within L21 that makes it so.

DF63, while under represented at this point, is still way ahead of Z245/L459 (xL21), and may get a boost from increased continental testing. The same could be said of DF13- DF63-.

I have more to say but I've run out of time!



My overall impression of L21XDF13 is the 'per head tested' it is hugely more common in France/Pyrennees than it is in Britain.  On a completely different level really.  It also seems to me that L21XDF13 on the continent has a very similar distirbution (except the Rhineland) as L21 on the continent has i.e. it is strongest in the western half of France from Normandy to the Basque areas.  The usual problem being of course that isles ancestry in overrepresented by a couple of decimal points in terms of testing.  I mentally multiply a French total by 100.  Two or three French hits is the equivalent of about 200 in the isles.  Maybe that is a slight exageration but I think it is valid.  It is also true that presence/asbsence of a very rare group will show in the isles long before it will show on the continent, even if it is far more common there.  Anyway that is my pre-emptive strike just in case Mike is coming up with a Welsh origin for L21 hypothesis :0)

EDIT-I have to say if L21 did turn out to orignate in the isles I would immediately be then interested in where on the continent the P312* that got to the isles came from.  My primary interest has always been where on the continent the isles R1b came from so that would not change except my interest would turn to P312*

I agree with what you wrote.

I don't think it is likely that L21 originated anywhere in the British Isles. The Isles are too DF13 heavy, at least thus far. The L21 (xDF13) in the Isles is limited to the eastern half of England and the east coast of Scotland, whether DF63+ or not. There is already a continental presence among the L21 (xDF13) contingent.

I would be surprised if Jones' L21- Z245+ L459+ combination holds up, but even if it does, one such Welshman makes a flimsy argument one way or the other. We need a lot more such results (and I have my doubts that we're ever likely to get them).
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2012, 01:42:21 PM »

My use of the word "irrelevant" is not really the most appropriate. What I am trying to say is what David R hinted at below. The priority of testing for L21 for the large R1b1a2 predicted crowd has diminished, in my opinion. This is important now as the old cost-effective deep clade test is now of little value. If an R1b1a2 predicted person has no close matches who they can find who has done testing, the only options are a one by one top down testing strategy or Geno 2.0.  The scope of my communication related to the priority of testing for L21 is related to top down testing strategies.

My sense is that L21 is very relevant because a large number of men comprise it and it has a pretty definite distribution in Europe. Z245/L459 (xL21), while potentially phylogenetically significant, appears to be numerically trivial. ...
...
DF13 is important, but it is its position within L21 that makes it so.
....

I do think L21 is important, but no more so than L459. By the same logic you've expressed that DF13's position within L21 is what makes it important, then L459 is all the more important because of its position over top of L21. We could say that L21 is only important because of its position within L459... but that's neither here nor there anyway. That's just semantics.

Here is what I was talking about on top down testing strategies.

 Seems like that unless one has already tested DF13- DF63- L459+/Z245+ P312+, that there would be no reason/benefit to testing L21.

Yes, that is what I'm saying. The importance of L21 is just a happenstance of the sequence of SNP discovery.  From a P312* (really I mean P312+ U152- DF27-) perspective the important SNP is L459 and/or Z245. If you are L459+ then you should probably jump to DF13 since there are few L21+ DF13- people.

If you are L459+, and only if you are DF13-, then should you backup and test for L21...

See what I mean? As you said, there are probably few L459xL21's out there just as there are probably few L21xDF13's.  As it stands now, DF13 is really the Big Kahuna or most immediate ancestor of all the big subclades, i.e. DF49, DF21, L513, Z253, etc.   You could think of DF13 as just a slightly slimmed down L21, but in reality L21 is just a slightly fattened up DF13 and L459 is just a slightly fattened up L21.  L21 is just another signpost right at junction of the big DF13 branch. L459 is right there with L21.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 01:45:23 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2012, 01:42:34 PM »

My sense is that L21 is very relevant because a large number of men comprise it and it has a pretty definite distribution in Europe. Z245/L459 (xL21), while potentially phylogenetically significant, appears to be numerically trivial. We have one guy, Jones of Wales (whom I suspect may be part of Mike's Welsh speculation), who may be Z245+ L459+ and L21-, if that L21- result holds. That's not much.

DF13 is important, but it is its position within L21 that makes it so.

DF63, while under represented at this point, is still way ahead of Z245/L459 (xL21), and may get a boost from increased continental testing. The same could be said of DF13- DF63-.

I have more to say but I've run out of time!



My overall impression of L21XDF13 is the 'per head tested' it is hugely more common in France/Pyrennees than it is in Britain.  On a completely different level really.  It also seems to me that L21XDF13 on the continent has a very similar distirbution (except the Rhineland) as L21 on the continent has i.e. it is strongest in the western half of France from Normandy to the Basque areas.  The usual problem being of course that isles ancestry in overrepresented by a couple of decimal points in terms of testing.  I mentally multiply a French total by 100.  Two or three French hits is the equivalent of about 200 in the isles.  Maybe that is a slight exageration but I think it is valid.  It is also true that presence/asbsence of a very rare group will show in the isles long before it will show on the continent, even if it is far more common there.  Anyway that is my pre-emptive strike just in case Mike is coming up with a Welsh origin for L21 hypothesis :0)

EDIT-I have to say if L21 did turn out to orignate in the isles I would immediately be then interested in where on the continent the P312* that got to the isles came from.  My primary interest has always been where on the continent the isles R1b came from so that would not change except my interest would turn to P312*

I agree with what you wrote.

I don't think it is likely that L21 originated anywhere in the British Isles. The Isles are too DF13 heavy, at least thus far. The L21 (xDF13) in the Isles is limited to the eastern half of England and the east coast of Scotland, whether DF63+ or not. There is already a continental presence among the L21 (xDF13) contingent.

I would be surprised if Jones' L21- Z245+ L459+ combination holds up, but even if it does, one such Welshman makes a flimsy argument one way or the other. We need a lot more such results (and I have my doubts that we're ever likely to get them).

I agree.  When it comes to small remnants of a phase, the isles-bias just becomes a huge problem.  Its not so bad when we are dealing with big groups but once we are dealing with fractions of 1% then the isles are going to pop up first every time even if there is in reality 50, even 100 times more per head on the continent.  
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« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2012, 01:54:10 PM »

My use of the word "irrelevant" is not really the most appropriate. What I am trying to say is what David R hinted at below. The priority of testing for L21 for the large R1b1a2 predicted crowd has diminished, in my opinion. This is important now as the old cost-effective deep clade test is now of little value. If an R1b1a2 predicted person has no close matches who they can find who has done testing, the only options are a one by one top down testing strategy or Geno 2.0.  The scope of my communication related to the priority of testing for L21 is related to top down testing strategies.

My sense is that L21 is very relevant because a large number of men comprise it and it has a pretty definite distribution in Europe. Z245/L459 (xL21), while potentially phylogenetically significant, appears to be numerically trivial. ...
...
DF13 is important, but it is its position within L21 that makes it so.
....

I do think L21 is important, but no more so than L459. By the same logic you've expressed that DF13's position within L21 is what makes it important, then L459 is all the more important because of its position over top of L21. We could say that L21 is only important because of its position within L459... but that's neither here nor there anyway. That's just semantics.

Here is what I was talking about on top down testing strategies.

 Seems like that unless one has already tested DF13- DF63- L459+/Z245+ P312+, that there would be no reason/benefit to testing L21.

Yes, that is what I'm saying. The importance of L21 is just a happenstance of the sequence of SNP discovery.  From a P312* (really I mean P312+ U152- DF27-) perspective the important SNP is L459 and/or Z245. If you are L459+ then you should probably jump to DF13 since there are few L21+ DF13- people.

If you are L459+, and only if you are DF13-, then should you backup and test for L21...

See what I mean? As you said, there are probably few L459xL21's out there just as there are probably few L21xDF13's.  As it stands now, DF13 is really the Big Kahuna or most immediate ancestor of all the big subclades, i.e. DF49, DF21, L513, Z253, etc.   You could think of DF13 as just a slightly slimmed down L21, but in reality L21 is just a slightly fattened up DF13 and L459 is just a slightly fattened up L21.  L21 is just another signpost right at junction of the big DF13 branch. L459 is right there with L21.

I see what your saying but it will be hard to adjust after thinking pretty well of the big L21-U152 etc  division.  It is an interesting point though that the big explosion in now known to be DF13 derived.  However, that makes L21XDf13 very interesting from an origin point aspect. 

I also think its interesting now to throw out there for discussion.  Isles L21 is basically a subdivision or founder effect of L21 by a DF13 group.  This is especially true of the Celtic fringe of the isles. To me, the most outstanding find of DF13 testing is that per head it is hugely more common to be L21XDF13 in the area from Normandy down to the Basque country than it is in the isles.  That closely corresponds with the continental peak of L21 as a whole.  To me that is another bit of evidence for its origin in Atlantic France although admittedly not conclusive.  It may also fit with the idea that on the continent L21 had competition but  in the isles DF13 may have had a real founder effect combined with little or no competition from other R1b folks. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2012, 02:00:55 PM »

actually- does the removal of L21XDF13 much change the variance of L21?
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Heber
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« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2012, 02:16:03 PM »

An extract fro the "Scots, A Genetic Journey", deals with the DNA of the Picts.

“A marker has been identified that is essentially unique to Scotland and rarely found elsewhere. It is known as R1b-str47 or R1b-Pict and around 10% of Scottish men carry it. In our towns and villages 250,000 Picts are quietly going about their daily lives. The distribution of the marker broadly matches the Pictish territory and where later incursions such as Dalriada Gaels and the Vikings overlaid it, the numbers are diluted.It is well represented in the east of Scotland above the Forth but much less so in Northern and Western Isles. R1b-Pict is at least 3,000 years old and possibly even older and is a subgroup of S145 (L21)”.

Moffat and Wilson also equate Old Welsh with Brythonic and describe it as being spoken from Wales to Strathclyde. As regards the relevance of L21, it is still the primary root clade with DF13 being an important sub clade.

"Cumbria and Cumberland are names derived from Old English Cumber, a term used in Anglo-Saxon Northumbria to describe the native Britons. The latter, of course, were a Celtic people who had once inhabited the whole island of Britain. A large number of Britons in the far North were known as ‘Picts’ from the late 3rd century AD, if not before. Most of the rest, living south of a line drawn between modern Edinburgh and Glasgow, were (more or less) ruled by Rome until the early 5th century. After c.410, the population of what had once been Roman Britain was gradually conquered or assimilated by the Anglo-Saxons or ‘English’ whose ancestors had come from Germany. The so-called ‘Anglo-Saxon Conquest’ was drawn out over five hundred years but led eventually to the creation of England. By c.900, at the height of the Viking Age, only two regions of Britain still remained under native ‘British’ control. One of these was Wales, at that time a patchwork of small kingdoms. The other was a single realm located in what are now southwest Scotland and northwest England, with borders reaching from Loch Lomond in the north to Penrith in the south. To the Anglo-Saxons of neighbouring Northumbria this kingdom was ‘Cumber-land’ or ‘Cumbra-land’, a land inhabited by Britons. In Latinised form the name was ‘Cumbria’."

http://senchus.wordpress.com/category/britons/page/2/


Problem with their R1b Pict marker is it has a distribution that makes it look a better fit for the Scots.  I know distibution is a bad measure but I think the origin of this cluster is still an open question.  The original Irish Dalriadan kingdom lines died out in the 12th century and not a single surname in Ireland can now be linked with the pre-Scottish migration phase of Dalriada in Ireland.  So, I think this is never going to be proved.  However I suspect the Picts left much more than a 10% legacy in Scotland but at the same time I am not at all convinced that the cluster that is labelled Pict is Pictish.  It is highest in Argyll, Skye, clans who are tradidtionally especially linked to Dalriada like the McGregors etc.  Just doesnt fit to me.

Alan,
Here is what Moffat and Wilson have to say about Dal Riada. IMO Moffat and Wilson are the best sources on Scottish DNA from a combined Cultural, Linguistic, Archealogy and DNA perspective. Here are some examples of cross channel genealogies.

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-history-in-maps/

“Did it (the M222 marker) cross the sea with the war bands of Fergus Mor mac Erc and his ancestors? There is uncompromising evidence that it did. More than 6 percent of all Scottish men carry M222, around 150,000 are direct decendents of Niall, the High King of the Irish. The frequency of the marker is very pronounced on the west with 9 per cent and less in the east with 3 per cent on the axis from Galloway to Shetland. It occurs very often amongst men with ancient Scottish surnames and whose family trees can, in some cases, be traced back over three centuries. Those in Scotland with the M222 marker are not recent immigrants and their high incidence and geographic spread indicate a large scale movement of people – probably mainly from Ulster and probably around AD 500”.

http://www.box.net/shared/gsbm92c2ri

The frequencies of the M222 Y chromosome group are shown across the British Isles using pie charts. Up to 3000 samples were used to create this map.
“Other Irish specific markers from the period around AD 500 can be found in Scotland and their presence reinforces a sense of colonization. S168 (M226) is relatively rare and strongly concentrated around the River Shannon where it is now found in Tipperary and Limerick. This was once the territory of the Dalcassian clans, the decendents of the great High King Brian Boru. S169 (L159.2) is most common in Leinster, the lands of the Lagin clans, and it too is found in Scotland, especially amongst men with the surnames Beattie and Ferguson”.
“The genetic and political divide between incomers and natives also had cultural facets. The Dalriadans spoke Irish Gaelic, Q-Celtic, while the Picts spoke P-Celtic and it appears that the languages were not mutually intelligible. When St Columba attempted to bring the Word of God to the Picts, it had to be translated”.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 04:17:38 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
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« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2012, 03:06:46 PM »

If Jones does turn out to be in reality L459 (xL21) then, yes, L459 would be the sort of catch-all test. Still, one would need a follow-up L21 test, because if one is L459 (xL21), then it is pointless to test him for DF13. You could say that most of the time an L459+ result is really the same thing as an L21+ result, so skipping over L21 to a DF13 test is justified. But if L459 has any meaning on its own, then skipping L21 to DF13 would add unnecessary expense for the man who turns out to be L459 (xL21). He would have to back up and test for L21 anyway. If he assumes he is L21+, goes ahead and jumps from his DF13- result to test for DF63, he will get a DF63- result and have to go back and test for L21 anyway. In that case he has paid for twice as many tests as he needed.

I would say the number of L459 (xL21) men is so small (maybe zero, depending on Jones), and likely to remain so small, that the sensible thing is to test for L21. Then, if one gets an L21- result, back up and test for L459.

A single L21 test for $29 (or $38.50 for a first-time SNP test with FTDNA) will tell you whether or not testing for DF13 or L459 makes any sense. An L459 test, however, at the same price, won't tell you that. It will only tell you that it is likely that you are L21+, and you would still need to test for L21. Jumping from L459+ to DF13, as I described above, would probably be okay for most guys, but it would double the cost for a man who turns out to be L459 (xL21).
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 03:10:18 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2012, 03:57:16 PM »

I think right now that, in terms of this discussion, the closest thing to irrelevant is actually L459, not L21.

Here's what I mean.

Case A: The man who is L459 (xL21).

Step1) He tests L459+. Step 2) He tests DF13-. Step 3) He tests L21-.

Had he skipped Step 2 (DF13), he would have saved himself time and money. Had he tested for L21 first, he would have known not to waste his time on DF13 and could have gone right back to L459.

Case B: The typical DF13+ man.

Step 1) He tests L459+. Step 2) He tests DF13+.

Fine, but not any better than testing for L21 instead of L459. Had he been the man in Case A above, starting with L21 would have spared him the waste of time and money on DF13.

Case C: The man who is DF63+.


Step 1) He tests L459+. Step 2) He tests DF13- (oops!). Step 3) He tests L21+. Step 4) He tests DF63+.

Where's the extra step? It's Step 1. Had he begun with L21, he could have gotten to DF63+ with just two more tests (DF13 and DF63). You could argue that he could have gone right from Step 2 in this case to Step 4, but that would be a gamble, since he wasn't sure he was L21+.

Skipping L459 and starting with L21 makes the most sense. An L459 test really only makes sense, as things now stand, if one gets an L21- result.

Case D: The man who is L21 (xDF13,DF63).


Step 1) He tests L459+. Step 2) He tests DF13-. Step 3) He tests L21+. Step 4) He tests DF63-.

Skipping L459 and testing for L21 first would have saved time and money in this case.

The only one of the four possible cases above where testing for L459 first works out okay is Case B, the case of the typical DF13+ guy (like me). But it still doesn't work any better than testing for L21 first, and in every other case an initial test for L21 is the best choice.

So, right now, the title of nearly irrelevant has to go to L459 and not L21.

I guess my point is that in only one out of the four cases above is it reasonable to skip testing for L21. That is the most common case, to be sure, but one cannot always be sure, before he actually begins testing, that is how things will work out.

I am also talking about being systematic, not about rolling the dice and getting lucky.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 04:18:07 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2012, 04:39:06 PM »

. . .
I read a piece by someone recently complaining that the descendants of the Brythonic Celts of England & Scotland had somehow had their Celtic roots snatched from them - submerged by others claiming exclusivity . . .
Cheers,
Bob

I am interested in what the author of that piece meant by that. I get that feeling when I read stuff by the Celto-Skeptics and by those, like Oppenheimer, who want R1b in the Isles to be Paleolithic or at least pre-Beaker.

But I get the feeling from the context of your post (most of which I chopped off to quote the bit I wanted to focus on) that he means his Celtic roots have been snatched by the R-L21 crowd.

Is that what he meant?

If so, it is a misunderstanding. Has anyone claimed that one cannot be of insular Celtic ancestry unless he gets an L21+ test result?

I know I haven't made any such claim.

I do believe L21 in the Isles is probably mostly Celtic (whatever that means after all the academic sniping is done), but that doesn't mean I think there weren't any insular Celts who were something else, like some other kinds of P312, or I-M284, or I-L126, etc.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2012, 04:58:08 PM »

I wish I could recall the piece in its entirety, Rich. Sadly, I only retained the gist of it. I don't think it was as detailed as mentioning L21 etc - more concerned with a feeling that the Irish, Welsh & Scots were often considered by themselves (& others) as Celts, yet huge numbers of English Celts had been somehow forgotten.
Cheers,
Bob
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
rms2
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« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2012, 05:08:32 PM »

I wish I could recall the piece in its entirety, Rich. Sadly, I only retained the gist of it. I don't think it was as detailed as mentioning L21 etc - more concerned with a feeling that the Irish, Welsh & Scots were often considered by themselves (& others) as Celts, yet huge numbers of English Celts had been somehow forgotten.
Cheers,
Bob

Ah. Sad but true, I think.

In that case I think advances in y-dna testing may help reverse that. Not too long ago some folks were making the case that the Anglo-Saxons had annihilated the Britons in what is now England.

Kind of hard to argue that now.
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