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Author Topic: Is L21 irrelevant? and the importance of the Welsh...  (Read 6135 times)
avalon
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« Reply #100 on: August 19, 2012, 07:46:55 AM »

If you look at a relief map of Britain, it's interesting to note that the Pennines act as a natural barrier between the east & west of northern England, or potentially, Anglo-Saxon (east) & Brythonic Celt (west).  If you draw a line following the higher ground from Derby down to Poole (in Dorset), that seems to be where 6th C maps show the split tbetween the Anglo-Saxons & Brythonic Celts in the south.
The Welsh mountainous regions obviously made attack by various invaders difficult. Historically, it was easier to eradicate an enemy on flat, open terrain. Mountains are a great bolt-hole to defend when under pressure. I think the mountains of Cumbria were of similar  benefit to  Brythonic Celts there, when Angles , Danes & others moved into the region.
My view of the upcoming POBI results? I'd guess there'll be some sweeping statements & maps showing clearly defined tribal groupings. I'm concerned that the map they released showed England, south of Cumbria & Northumberland, being almost completely red, with the exception of  Devon & Cornwall.
The Welsh map appears bizarre to me. I can understand the Pembrokeshire presence of Flemish & Normans (if that's what the map is indicating). However, surely there should be very similar DNA found in the western counties of England & Wales generally? To have only tested Anglesey, Pembrokeshire & some hot spots on the Anglo-Welsh northern & southern borders seems very remiss! Surely the Welsh in the interior would have DNA more representative of ancient Welsh DNA , so of  greater relevance to the country than areas near ports & borders that traditionally attract a more mobile population? Also, shouldn't we be seeing some similarity in  DNA results when comparing Cornwall & Wales?
Finally, what the hell are we supposed to make of the Scottish map?!
I hope POBI have only released appetizers so far, & that they have far more to offer.
Cheers,
Bob

You raise some interesting points.

Geography is often important in explaining the history of a region and this upland versus lowland division in Britain has often been commented on.

If you look at the history of Britain , invaders/settlers usually take the best agricultural land for themselves, confining the natives to the poorer soils of the hills that are only good for grazing sheep. The Romans dominated lowland England but largely ignored the uplands of Wales and the Pennines. The Anglo-Saxons appear to have done the same, settling on land better suited to crops.

Celtic speakers clearly survived most in the uplands of Britain, in Cumbria it probably survived longer (Cumbrian sheep counting contains a Celtic remnant) than elsewhere due to its remoteness. Of course, Viking burials and placenames indicate a later Scandinavian influence in Cumbria.

As for Wales, I think the POBI tested Anglesey because they were at an agricultural show on the island and lots of volunteers came forward. I agree that the lack of samples in central Wales is frustrating because it is reasonable to assume that the most ancient Welsh dna would be found in the the remote villages and farmsteads of the Welsh uplands.

The coast of Wales has always attracted settlers, from Viking and Irish raiders in medieval times through to more modern immigrants.

Having said all that, Wales did still manage to remain separate from England until the late 1200's, and not until industrial times was there significant further immigration into Wales. This relative isolation might account for the different genetic clusters with western English counties.




« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 07:56:45 AM by avalon » Logged
razyn
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« Reply #101 on: August 19, 2012, 09:52:57 AM »

It shouldn't be forgotten that each symbol on one of those PoBI maps represents a mean location of the birthplace of four grandparents (of the sampled person).  They've tended to avoid urban sampling because urban people tend not to have four grandparents representative of that (urban) locale.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #102 on: August 19, 2012, 11:06:18 AM »

It shouldn't be forgotten that each symbol on one of those PoBI maps represents a mean location of the birthplace of four grandparents (of the sampled person).  They've tended to avoid urban sampling because urban people tend not to have four grandparents representative of that (urban) locale.
A good point, Razyn.
On another tack: I wonder if the Brythonic Celts suffered more during the plagues & famines which decimated Britain? There were a series of those in medieval times, 1349 being very severe.
On the other hand, perhaps they fared better if they were dominant in the more remote areas of the country.
Cheers,
Bob
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 11:11:55 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
Terry Barton
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« Reply #103 on: August 20, 2012, 10:41:29 PM »

I deleted all messages after #102.   Feel free to continue this Topic.

Terry
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #104 on: August 21, 2012, 02:02:22 PM »

So much for all that. To close out on all the deleted messages I want to proudly say I've been accused of being both anti-Irish and anti-Welsh, when my Y probably actually is Welsh-Irish. Oh well.

There has been jockeying of the positioning on the draft Y DNA tree by L459 and Z245.  Hopefully we'll see the result soon. If Jones is L21+ then the interest in L459 and Z245 will probably die and they will become the irrelevant ones, until something pops up from a Geno 2.0 test some day.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 02:04:00 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #105 on: August 21, 2012, 05:27:01 PM »

Sounds like I missed some fun on this thread.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #106 on: August 21, 2012, 06:01:23 PM »

There has been jockeying of the positioning on the draft Y DNA tree by L459 and Z245.  Hopefully we'll see the result soon. If Jones is L21+ then the interest in L459 and Z245 will probably die and they will become the irrelevant ones, until something pops up from a Geno 2.0 test some day.

Over on the poll thread, we just heard news that Jones IS L21+. That makes this topic irrelevant so that closes it out.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
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« Reply #107 on: August 21, 2012, 08:49:30 PM »

Sounds like I missed some fun on this thread.

You missed some bizarre strangeness, that's for sure.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #108 on: August 22, 2012, 10:34:21 AM »

Sounds like I missed some fun on this thread.

You missed some bizarre strangeness, that's for sure.

lol I dont doubt it.  This hobby should come with a 'may contain bizzareness and strangeness' warning. 
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rms2
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« Reply #109 on: August 22, 2012, 02:40:45 PM »

Sounds like I missed some fun on this thread.

You missed some bizarre strangeness, that's for sure.

lol I dont doubt it.  This hobby should come with a 'may contain bizzareness and strangeness' warning. 

Yep. And, believe it or not, it had nothing to do with U106!
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #110 on: August 22, 2012, 02:55:46 PM »

I thought he was just entertaining us...

How many boards to date has he been excommunicated from?

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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