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Author Topic: DF13+ DF21- DF23- Z253- What next?  (Read 4122 times)
rms2
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« on: August 10, 2012, 01:19:25 AM »

That's me: DF13+ DF21- DF23- Z253-.

I know what major branch SNPs downstream of DF13 are left, but my question is, what is my best bet?

Kit 59080, Ysearch HX9ZF.

He or she who calls it correctly gets the satisfaction of being right and a big thank-you from me.

Honestly, I can't see anything obvious out there.

Suggestions?

I don't like spending money for negative results.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2012, 01:28:26 AM »

That's me: DF13+ DF21- DF23- Z253-.

I know what major branch SNPs downstream of DF13 are left, but my question is, what is my best bet?

Kit 59080, Ysearch HX9ZF.

He or she who calls it correctly gets the satisfaction of being right and a big thank-you from me.

Honestly, I can't see anything obvious out there.

Suggestions?

I don't like spending money for negative results.

Unfortunately, some one in every cluster needs to be an explorer.  

The oldest subclades left for you would be DF49, L513, Z255 and DF41. We don't know that much about DF49, other than it is old.

I wouldn't predict you'd be positive for any of them, but there is only one way to know.

The real place to go for you is probably WTY but that IS expensive.

I'll look at your cluster and comparative SNP testing but I don't remember anything popping up.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 01:28:50 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
rms2
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« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2012, 01:30:56 AM »

That's me: DF13+ DF21- DF23- Z253-.

I know what major branch SNPs downstream of DF13 are left, but my question is, what is my best bet?

Kit 59080, Ysearch HX9ZF.

He or she who calls it correctly gets the satisfaction of being right and a big thank-you from me.

Honestly, I can't see anything obvious out there.

Suggestions?

I don't like spending money for negative results.

Unfortunately, some one in every cluster needs to be an explorer.  

The oldest subclades left for you would be DF49, L513, Z255 and DF41. We don't know that much about DF49, other than it is old.

I wouldn't predict you'd be positive for any of them, but there is only one way to know.

The real place to go for you is probably WTY but that IS expensive.

I'll look at your cluster and comparative SNP testing but I don't remember anything popping up.


Thanks, Mike.

I appreciate the help.
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2012, 01:45:28 AM »

For L513 and its subclades, I noticed that there are a few 406S1=10 guys there, but nobody that I saw in my cursory look had anything less than 13 at 617. That makes it really unlikely that I'll be L513+ of any kind, since I have 406S1=10 and 617=12 (the modal values).
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Heber
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« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2012, 01:56:55 AM »

The Geno 2.0 test is an exciting new product from National Genographic and FTDNa and a far cry from the 12 marker test I did in 2005.
It includes an estimated 12,000 Y DNA SNPs.
It will eventually be integrated with FTDNA
It should include several new SNPs downstream of L21
In addition you get Y, mtDNA and autosomal SNPs designed for ancestry
It should give extensive ancient European insisights through testing of 5,000 Sardinian markers
You get a $30  if you tested Geno 1.0
On a cost per SNP basis it is good value

"National Geographic is entering the next phase of their Genographic Project in partnership with  Family Tree DNA and the genetic genealogy community. Continuing to move toward their goal of mapping the pattern of human genetics, they are introducing the new GenoChip 2.0. This chip is specifically designed for ancestry testing and includes SNPs from autosomal DNA, X-DNA, Y-DNA and mtDNA. The design of the new chip was a collaborative effort between Eran Elhaik of Johns Hopkins, Spencer Wells of National Geographic, Family Tree DNA and Illumina.  The testing will be done at FTDNA in Houston....
The Geno 2.0 test will be offered for $199.95 with free shipping within the US on the National Geographic site and will only require a cheek swab. All resulting data will be downloadable. They will begin accepting pre-orders today for a fall shipping date (10/30/12). In the future, orders will  also be accepted through the Family Tree DNA website....

Y-DNA SNPs
 
The chip includes just over 12,000 Y-DNA SNPs. Ten thousand of these are completely unique and have “never been published before”.  First, they created probes for all of the 862 Y-SNPs from the current YCC 2010 Tree. Next, they contacted research centers all over the world and asked them to provide a list of all the Y-SNPs that they had data mined or discovered, including the L SNPs and Z SNPs and “private Hammer” SNPs, and created probes for those. Y-SNPs discovered by citizen scientists were also included....."

http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com/2012/07/national-geographic-and-family-tree-dna.html

http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/2012/07/25/the-genographic-project-announces-geno-2-0/
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 01:59:32 AM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2012, 02:00:19 AM »

Thanks, Heber, but I think I'm going to have to do SNP hunting twenty nine bucks at a time. I can't do the $200 Geno 2.0 thing right now, especially since I want to get my dad's FGS and Family Finder tests done in the near future.
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df.reynolds
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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2012, 02:35:11 AM »

You have nine other folks who form a rock solid cluster with you. The Cooper in particular at least cared enough at one point to get a Deep Clade by the looks of it, as well as testing DF13 a la carte.
57563 Cooper DF13+, L144-, L159.2-, L193-, L21+, L226-, L69-, L96-, M222-, M37-, P314.2-, P66-

(The Coopers moved their primary page over to WFN, but the YSTR & SNP pages are still active at FTDNA, http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cooper/default.aspx?section=ysnp)

So I'd at least contact him, if not the others, and see about splitting the test load for the remaining DF13 subclades.

(Small world--this is one of the Coopers that I had DYS464X tested a couple years ago, back when I was still trying to find the bounds of the Cooper-Reynolds cluster with STRs. This one not only was not "15.3g", he turned out to be Quad-C, so definitely not related. I suspect the only reason he shows up in the spreadsheet is because of me asking Mike to pick up the SNP results from the Cooper project. The happy ending is that L627+ ended up defining the Cooper-Reynolds cluster. :)

Regards,
david



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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2012, 10:03:33 AM »

You have nine other folks who form a rock solid cluster with you. The Cooper in particular at least cared enough at one point to get a Deep Clade by the looks of it, as well as testing DF13 a la carte.
57563 Cooper DF13+, L144-, L159.2-, L193-, L21+, L226-, L69-, L96-, M222-, M37-, P314.2-, P66-

(The Coopers moved their primary page over to WFN, but the YSTR & SNP pages are still active at FTDNA, http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cooper/default.aspx?section=ysnp)

So I'd at least contact him, if not the others, and see about splitting the test load for the remaining DF13 subclades.

(Small world--this is one of the Coopers that I had DYS464X tested a couple years ago, back when I was still trying to find the bounds of the Cooper-Reynolds cluster with STRs. This one not only was not "15.3g", he turned out to be Quad-C, so definitely not related. I suspect the only reason he shows up in the spreadsheet is because of me asking Mike to pick up the SNP results from the Cooper project. The happy ending is that L627+ ended up defining the Cooper-Reynolds cluster. :)

Regards,
david


Thanks, David. That's a good idea.

Yeah, I have Cooper and some Webbs, some Prices, a Beddoes, and, of course, some Stevenses and Stephenses in my cluster, and maybe one or two others.

Maybe Cooper will help me out. None of the others is enthusiastic about SNP testing. One of the Webbs went as far as an initial Deep Clade that got him to L21+, but that's about it. One of the Prices was a university professor (chemistry, I think) who was really interested, but, unfortunately, he passed away a few years ago. I lost a real potential ally when he died.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 10:06:03 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2012, 10:35:26 AM »

I just finished emailing Mr. Cooper.

Between the two of us, we have already eliminated the following DF13+ branch SNPs: L96, L144, Z253, and DF21. (I'm not including the branchlets, like DF23.)

Since we don't have 406S1=11 and 617=13 or higher, it looks like we can either eliminate L513 altogether or at least put testing for it off until last.

That leaves DF49, Z255, L371, and DF41.

If my cluster brother Mr. Cooper agrees, we can each test for just two of those and save ourselves some money.

I hope he goes for it!
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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2012, 07:10:13 PM »

I heard back from Cooper.

He will test for L371 and DF41, and I'll do Z255 and DF49.

I ordered DF49 just a few minutes ago. Fingers crossed, but not much hope for a positive there (but you never know).
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rms2
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« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2012, 07:34:03 PM »

I heard back from Cooper.

He will test for L371 and DF41, and I'll do Z255 and DF49.

I ordered DF49 just a few minutes ago. Fingers crossed, but not much hope for a positive there (but you never know).


By the way, I am very happy about this arrangement. Thanks, David, for the suggestion!

It's a little off the subject, but, judging from the Received Lab Results page at the R-L21 Plus Project, it looks like tonight is Family Finder night (sounds like a "Kids Eat Free" deal!).

Time to check the FF page for new matches!
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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2012, 07:36:24 PM »

I heard back from Cooper.

He will test for L371 and DF41, and I'll do Z255 and DF49.

I ordered DF49 just a few minutes ago. Fingers crossed, but not much hope for a positive there (but you never know).


By the way, I am very happy about this arrangement. Thanks, David, for the suggestion!

It's a little off the subject, but, judging from the Received Lab Results page at the R-L21 Plus Project, it looks like tonight is Family Finder night (sounds like a "Kids Eat Free" deal!).

Time to check the FF page for new matches!

Sho 'nuff!

Fourteen new FF matches! (Sorry to depart momentarily from the topic. Carry on now.)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 07:37:15 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mark Jost
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« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2012, 08:12:46 PM »

I heard back from Cooper.

He will test for L371 and DF41, and I'll do Z255 and DF49.

I ordered DF49 just a few minutes ago. Fingers crossed, but not much hope for a positive there (but you never know).


By the way, I am very happy about this arrangement. Thanks, David, for the suggestion!

It's a little off the subject, but, judging from the Received Lab Results page at the R-L21 Plus Project, it looks like tonight is Family Finder night (sounds like a "Kids Eat Free" deal!).

Time to check the FF page for new matches!

Sho 'nuff!

Fourteen new FF matches! (Sorry to depart momentarily from the topic. Carry on now.)

Dang I got 10 today and a total of 21 since the first...Sweet... You should know I now have 83 paternal only matches with a quite a few UK and mostly southeastern USA matches now..... I know.... this is off topic....
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2012, 08:18:08 PM »

I heard back from Cooper.

He will test for L371 and DF41, and I'll do Z255 and DF49.

I ordered DF49 just a few minutes ago. Fingers crossed, but not much hope for a positive there (but you never know).


By the way, I am very happy about this arrangement. Thanks, David, for the suggestion!

It's a little off the subject, but, judging from the Received Lab Results page at the R-L21 Plus Project, it looks like tonight is Family Finder night (sounds like a "Kids Eat Free" deal!).

Time to check the FF page for new matches!

Sho 'nuff!

Fourteen new FF matches! (Sorry to depart momentarily from the topic. Carry on now.)

Dang I got 10 today and a total of 21 since the first...Sweet... You should know I now have 83 paternal only matches with a quite a few UK and mostly southeastern USA matches now..... I know.... this is off topic....

Great!

Most of mine are from the South, but I have a couple of matches with current British citizens and at least one Canadian.
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rms2
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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2012, 11:59:47 PM »

I heard back from Cooper.

He will test for L371 and DF41, and I'll do Z255 and DF49.

I ordered DF49 just a few minutes ago. Fingers crossed, but not much hope for a positive there (but you never know).

I couldn't wait, so I went ahead and ordered Z255, too.

Probably both will be negative, but what the heck.

Now I've done my part.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2012, 10:22:13 AM »

Dang I got 10 today and a total of 21 since the first...Sweet... You should know I now have 83 paternal only matches with a quite a few UK and mostly southeastern USA matches now..... I know.... this is off topic....

Yep, I took a look this morning and I have 48 new FF matches, 72 since the first. I think I'll take this discussion back over to the Family Finder board where it really belongs.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

rms2
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« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2012, 03:36:05 PM »

Okay. So, it's all in the works for me. My cluster brother Mr. Cooper has ordered L371 and DF41, and I have ordered DF49 and Z255.

We didn't bother with L555 because that appears to be limited to Clan Irwin and the  few surnames within that orbit, and we aren't ordering L513 (at least not right now) because we don't have the 406S1=11 and 617=13 or higher combination.

Now we wait. Hopefully we won't be waiting long.

I'm guessing we're going to get the big goose egg that hatches into an asterisk, but you never know until you try.
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rms2
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« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2012, 03:44:05 PM »

Okay. So, it's all in the works for me. My cluster brother Mr. Cooper has ordered L371 and DF41, and I have ordered DF49 and Z255.

We didn't bother with L555 because that appears to be limited to Clan Irwin and the  few surnames within that orbit, and we aren't ordering L513 (at least not right now) because we don't have the 406S1=11 and 617=13 or higher combination.

Now we wait. Hopefully we won't be waiting long.

I'm guessing we're going to get the big goose egg that hatches into an asterisk, but you never know until you try.


Oh, if Cooper scores a positive hit on one of the two SNPs he's testing, I'll order that one, too, just to confirm it for myself, and because I want the nifty letter at the end of my "R1b-whatever-it-is-by-then" once the YCC Tree is updated. :-)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 03:45:33 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2012, 10:34:27 AM »

Okay. So, it's all in the works for me. My cluster brother Mr. Cooper has ordered L371 and DF41, and I have ordered DF49 and Z255.

We didn't bother with L555 because that appears to be limited to Clan Irwin and the  few surnames within that orbit, and we aren't ordering L513 (at least not right now) because we don't have the 406S1=11 and 617=13 or higher combination.

Now we wait. Hopefully we won't be waiting long.

I'm guessing we're going to get the big goose egg that hatches into an asterisk, but you never know until you try.

I mentioned this on another thread already, but I thought I should update this one.

Early this morning (just after midnight) I got my Z255 and DF49 results, and, unfortunately, both were negative.

Now I am just waiting for my cluster brother Cooper's L371 and DF41 results. He encountered some problems with FTDNA, so his sample didn't get batched until yesterday. Hopefully, we'll have his results in a week or two.

My Z255 and DF49 results took exactly one week from the day they went to the lab (well, I didn't see them until midnight, so you could say a week and a day).
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 10:35:11 AM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2012, 11:00:23 AM »

Okay. So, it's all in the works for me. My cluster brother Mr. Cooper has ordered L371 and DF41, and I have ordered DF49 and Z255.

We didn't bother with L555 because that appears to be limited to Clan Irwin and the  few surnames within that orbit, and we aren't ordering L513 (at least not right now) because we don't have the 406S1=11 and 617=13 or higher combination.

Now we wait. Hopefully we won't be waiting long.

I'm guessing we're going to get the big goose egg that hatches into an asterisk, but you never know until you try.

I mentioned this on another thread already, but I thought I should update this one.

Early this morning (just after midnight) I got my Z255 and DF49 results, and, unfortunately, both were negative.

Now I am just waiting for my cluster brother Cooper's L371 and DF41 results. He encountered some problems with FTDNA, so his sample didn't get batched until yesterday. Hopefully, we'll have his results in a week or two.

My Z255 and DF49 results took exactly one week from the day they went to the lab (well, I didn't see them until midnight, so you could say a week and a day).

I was hoping for a Z255+ result. Keep hammerin' at it though. I still think there is some kind of connection with your CDY values and 17 on DYS557. I'm sure we will find out in due time.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2012, 06:36:04 PM »

Okay. So, it's all in the works for me. My cluster brother Mr. Cooper has ordered L371 and DF41, and I have ordered DF49 and Z255.

We didn't bother with L555 because that appears to be limited to Clan Irwin and the  few surnames within that orbit, and we aren't ordering L513 (at least not right now) because we don't have the 406S1=11 and 617=13 or higher combination.

Now we wait. Hopefully we won't be waiting long.

I'm guessing we're going to get the big goose egg that hatches into an asterisk, but you never know until you try.

I mentioned this on another thread already, but I thought I should update this one.

Early this morning (just after midnight) I got my Z255 and DF49 results, and, unfortunately, both were negative.

Now I am just waiting for my cluster brother Cooper's L371 and DF41 results. He encountered some problems with FTDNA, so his sample didn't get batched until yesterday. Hopefully, we'll have his results in a week or two.

My Z255 and DF49 results took exactly one week from the day they went to the lab (well, I didn't see them until midnight, so you could say a week and a day).

I was hoping for a Z255+ result. Keep hammerin' at it though. I still think there is some kind of connection with your CDY values and 17 on DYS557. I'm sure we will find out in due time.

I was, too, or a DF49+ result, either one. Now I'm waiting on Cooper's L371 and DF41 tests, and I see his order is still on the "Pending Shipment to Lab" page, which would indicate that it won't actually get batched until next Wednesday (30 August). Sigh . . . more waiting.

Those will probably be negative, too, anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2012, 08:00:02 PM »

... we aren't ordering L513 (at least not right now) because we don't have the 406S1=11 and 617=13 or higher combination. ...
I understand, but I do want to add a couple of caveats.  First, we have found L513+ with 406s1=10, which is P312/L21/DF13 modal. Second, we have 617=14 (+2 of L21 modal) folks and even two* 617=15 (+3 of L21 modal.)  If that is so, it is easy to imagine that there is a 617=13 to 12 back mutation or two out there too.

On the other hand, I specifically recruit and target 406s1>=11 617>=13 people for L513 testing. Most "11-13" R1b1a2 people are L513+, but there are U152, U106, P314.2 and SRY2627 "11-13" clusters so it is not a given. Having a high percentage of 11-13 L513+ is not completely a result of random sampling. It's partially a result of specifically targeting high odds positive testing.

* note: the two L513+ 617=15 guys (with different surnames) think their family folklore are of German origin.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 08:02:07 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
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« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2012, 08:35:46 PM »

... we aren't ordering L513 (at least not right now) because we don't have the 406S1=11 and 617=13 or higher combination. ...
I understand, but I do want to add a couple of caveats.  First, we have found L513+ with 406s1=10, which is P312/L21/DF13 modal. Second, we have 617=14 (+2 of L21 modal) folks and even two* 617=15 (+3 of L21 modal.)  If that is so, it is easy to imagine that there is a 617=13 to 12 back mutation or two out there too.

On the other hand, I specifically recruit and target 406s1>=11 617>=13 people for L513 testing. Most "11-13" R1b1a2 people are L513+, but there are U152, U106, P314.2 and SRY2627 "11-13" clusters so it is not a given. Having a high percentage of 11-13 L513+ is not completely a result of random sampling. It's partially a result of specifically targeting high odds positive testing.

* note: the two L513+ 617=15 guys (with different surnames) think their family folklore are of German origin.

One of us might order L513, if we come up short on L371 and DF41, but it does seem like a very long longshot, since no one to date with less than 13 at 617 has been L513+. There have been a lot of L513- results, so it's not like it hasn't been tried by quite a few guys with 617=12.

I know what you mean, but I have to play the odds (not that I have any in my favor for any of the current crop of SNPs), because I hate spending money for negative results. They're informative, too, but I would rather get my information from a positive result.
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« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2012, 07:30:10 AM »

P312+ P25+ M343+ M269+ M207+ M173+ L21+ DF13+

Z255- Z253- SRY2627- P66- M73- M65- M37- M222- M18- M160- M153- M126- L96- L371- L195- L193- L192.1- L159.2- L144- L130- DF49- DF41- DF23- DF21- DF1-

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Perhaps I should test for L513 ?? would that make me DF13*(if L513-)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 07:47:23 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


rms2
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« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2012, 10:40:41 AM »

P312+ P25+ M343+ M269+ M207+ M173+ L21+ DF13+

Z255- Z253- SRY2627- P66- M73- M65- M37- M222- M18- M160- M153- M126- L96- L371- L195- L193- L192.1- L159.2- L144- L130- DF49- DF41- DF23- DF21- DF1-

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Perhaps I should test for L513 ?? would that make me DF13*(if L513-)

You can, if you want. I moved you to category "Ca. DF13* (L21>DF13; Negative for the known DF13+ subclades)" already. Maybe that's jumping the gun, technically, but I think at this point it isn't very likely you'll be L513+ or L555+.

After numerous L513 tests, no one with the combination 406S1=10 and 617=12 has yet to get an L513+ result. There are a very few guys with 406S1=10 who are L513+, but no one with 617=12 or less has gotten an L513+ result. There could be one out there, and maybe that's you, but the odds in your favor aren't great.

L555 seems to be limited to Clan Irwin and the few surnames of people whose haplotypes are close to Irwin haplotypes. I wouldn't bother with that one unless I had a close Irwin match.
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