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Maliclavelli
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« on: August 09, 2012, 11:20:40 AM »

This writes Vincent Vizachero on Rootsweb:

The DNA project aimed at understanding the ancestry of the Anglesey Bonesetter as apparently attributed this ancestry to the Caucaus and a clade of R-P312 called R-S250.

http://www.angleseybonesetters.co.uk/aaCombined_Bones_Reports_Issued.pdf

Jim Wilson et al. sequenced the Y and found 13 novel SNPs in this lineage that, so far, have not appeared in any of the 1,000+ samples WIlson has access to. They'd seem to be good candidates for Eastern European R-P312 lineages.
Vince

And this is what is written on the paper:

“The distribution of S250* Y chromosomes (which carry S250, but not S225 or S227, i.e. the bone setter lineage) is not well defined, but research both as part of this project and reported by others show it to be present in Spain, France, England, Switzerland, Italy, Bohemia and the Ukraine in small numbers of individuals so far tested. The frequency appears to be in the couple of % range […] Searching a partially overlapping publicly available database which enables more advanced search protocols (for instance to find more distant relatives) revealed one new potentially significant match with a sample labelled as being from a Lak person from Ossetia in the Caucasus mountains.
The match at 47/51 STRs is by a long way the closest seen, but consideration of the
haplotype and origin suggests that this might still be a spurious match, and the Ossetian
sample might belong to a different group of Y chromosomes which has by chance a similar
STR profile to the Bone setter lineage […]  We have asked for a DNA sample so that we can test this. The fathergroup S116, to which the bone setter lineage belongs, is very rare in the Balkans (under 0.5%) and has not been seen in the Caucasus […] It is very certain that the lineage does not originate in the British Isles and that it is rare where it originates, somewhere from Spain to the Ukraine”.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2012, 12:16:29 PM »

I have created an account on ySearch for this haplotype: D3786. At a first sight it would seem that this haplotype comes from the Isles and certainly he is the witness of an ancient R-P312, an outlier. Probably the link with this Lak from Caucasus is illusory, only convergent mutations, and the Lak is probably R-L23, but some values carry us to East Europe: DYS464= 15 15 18 18 and above all DYS557=18, a mutation gone for the tangent. DYS393=12 may be a recent mutation from 13 more than the witness of an unlikable original R-P312 with DYS393=12, seen that R-L51 and R-L11 have 13. The other values are in line with the Western European R-P312.
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2012, 12:42:20 PM »

Neat story. Probably a Spanish kid who was shipwrecked off Anglesey back in 1743 and who was raised by a Welsh family. I don't know that to be true, and I don't really care all that much, so don't jump me for saying it is probably so. Just my guess based on reading the story.

The little political blurb near the beginning about the "extreme right wing supporter" and anti-immigrant feelings seemed really out of place and irrelevant to me, but whatever.

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2012, 12:50:45 PM »

The closest on YHRD:

1   14   13   30   24   11   13   12   10,14   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   13   30   24   11   13   12   10,14   12   13   15   19   15   17   23   13   >>
1 of 145   Riga, Latvia [Latvian]   Eurasian - European - Eastern European   Europe
1 of 162   Marche, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe

I’d look at also to these:

14   13   29   24   11   13   12   10,14                           3   >>
14   13   30   24   10   13   12   10,14                           3   >>
14   13   30   23   11   13   12   10,14                           2   >>
14   13   30   24   11   13   12   11,14                           143   >>
14   13   30   24   11   13   13   10,14                           10   >>
14   13   31   24   11   13   12   10,14                           1   >>
14   13   30   25   11   13   12   10,14                           1   >>
14   13   30   24   11   13   12   10,13                           1   >>

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Maliclavelli


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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2012, 12:55:20 PM »

Dr. Wilson keeps things close to the vest, but it would seem to me that based on his description, these 'new' SNPs are as follows:

S250 - This is likely DF27
S227 - This is likely Z196 or Z195 (based on "...widely spread across Europe from Spain to Russia...")
S225 - This is likely Z225 or Z229 (based on "...is primarily Iberian")

As for the Caucasus link, if you read between the lines, it looks like they found a close match on Y-Search, but that it is more than likely a P312- sample and therefore a false lead.
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vineviz
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« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2012, 01:21:26 PM »

As for the Caucasus link, if you read between the lines, it looks like they found a close match on Y-Search, but that it is more than likely a P312- sample and therefore a false lead.

My concern with the Y-search match is that it appears to be a phantom:  some sort of modal haplotype based on some unknown data set.

VV
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2012, 02:23:11 PM »

But the closest at a GD of 2 is this:
1 14 13 30 24 11 13 13 10,14 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 12 >>
1 of 105 Guanajuato, Mexico [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America

At a GD of 3:
1 14 13 30 24 11 13 13 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 12 >>
1 14 13 30 24 11 13 13 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 16 23 12 >>
1 of 167 Huelva, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 49 Idaho, USA [Basque] Eurasian - European - Western European North America

Everything seems to indicate Iberia.
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Maliclavelli


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df.reynolds
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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2012, 11:47:25 AM »

Dr. Wilson keeps things close to the vest, but it would seem to me that based on his description, these 'new' SNPs are as follows:

S250 - This is likely DF27
S227 - This is likely Z196 or Z195 (based on "...widely spread across Europe from Spain to Russia...")
S225 - This is likely Z225 or Z229 (based on "...is primarily Iberian")

As for the Caucasus link, if you read between the lines, it looks like they found a close match on Y-Search, but that it is more than likely a P312- sample and therefore a false lead.

Dr Wilson confirmed:
 S250 == DF27
 S227 == Z195
 S225 == Z225
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samIsaack
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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2012, 01:59:06 PM »

Very interesting! Though I have to say the way he was described by the locals sounds awfully familiar to descriptions I've heard of the Irish. Not saying he was Irish, but the description of having a "Mop of very black hair" and "Very blue eyes" does sound like some of the accounts I've heard before. That and being of small stature.

Another interesting account of this happening.. this being more or less a tall tale, but it is the story of how the MacIsaac's became a clan of Scotland.. In which two Irish youths washed ashore and spoke nothing but the Irish tongue.. They were described as being "Swarthy" and of obvious Jewish heritage.. this being the reason they were readily given the name Isaac. I can't remember the exact details but it is still kind of interesting if infact the MacIsaac's were originally DF27.. Though from dna testing all I've seen is the Norse variey of I1. That and I'm sure they are predominantly L21 of some type, with groups such as mine being smaller occurances.. But then the MacLeods have shown to be L165, so I guess its not too far of a stretch to assume there is a sept of MacIsaac's who are SRY2627.

Sorry for the rambling!



« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 02:00:33 PM by samIsaack » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2012, 02:40:24 PM »

Dr. Wilson keeps things close to the vest, but it would seem to me that based on his description, these 'new' SNPs are as follows:

S250 - This is likely DF27
S227 - This is likely Z196 or Z195 (based on "...widely spread across Europe from Spain to Russia...")
S225 - This is likely Z225 or Z229 (based on "...is primarily Iberian")
...

Dr Wilson confirmed:
 S250 == DF27
 S227 == Z195
 S225 == Z225

I like Dr. Wilson and am glad he is out there. It is beneficial to the community if his businesses can be successful.

I just wish he'd provide full disclosure on this his testing so we don't have to assume anything. Trust is good, but I think we want to be able to verify too.
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razyn
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« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2012, 03:27:04 PM »

The paper has a full haplotype of the bonesetter dude on pp. 32-33 (of the PDF).  It has a very strange page break that lists the second row of DYS numbers at the bottom of 32, and then the values for those markers at the top of 33.  And it isn't broken up into the usual panels we would see in FTDNA reportage.  But it's pretty straightforward, anyway.  He looks like some near cousin of L165, to me.  A longer haplotype might confirm or refute that; but if I were advising him on what to test (and if he were testing at FTDNA) I'd say L165, in a heartbeat.  I guess that's S68, at the Wilson lab.

There was some mention of an alternate website that lets one look at haplotype matches far less exact than a GD of ten at 67 markers.  I suspect that would be the MolGen one, based in Russia.  Their uploaded collection of FTDNA test results isn't very current, but it was a big collection (about a year ago) and is still pretty useful.  We discussed it some, and it became available with English captioning (also French and German), just about the time DNA-Forums bit the dust.  The mystery match (a Lak person from the Caucasus) may have come from their own haplotype resources, rather than FTDNA's.  Anyway, it's another place to look (besides Ysearch):

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 03:15:29 PM by razyn » Logged

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samIsaack
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« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 04:19:38 PM »

I figured this would have received a more lively discussion.. oh wait, I forgot. Hes not L21...nevermind.
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rms2
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« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2012, 04:26:29 PM »

I figured this would have received a more lively discussion.. oh wait, I forgot. Hes not L21...nevermind.

That was unnecessary and unwarranted. I was the second one to post in this thread, after its author, and I am L21+.

Recruit some more DF27 guys for this forum.

There is a lot of talk here about L21, sure, but, last time I checked, that was neither illegal nor immoral.
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samIsaack
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« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2012, 04:32:59 PM »

I figured this would have received a more lively discussion.. oh wait, I forgot. Hes not L21...nevermind.

That was unnecessary and unwarranted. I was the second one to post in this thread, after its author, and I am L21+.

Recruit some more DF27 guys for this forum.

There is a lot of talk here about L21, sure, but, last time I checked, that was neither illegal nor immoral.

Oh come now it wasn't that bad.. I'm just poking some fun at you guys.
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rms2
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« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2012, 04:43:39 PM »

I figured this would have received a more lively discussion.. oh wait, I forgot. Hes not L21...nevermind.

That was unnecessary and unwarranted. I was the second one to post in this thread, after its author, and I am L21+.

Recruit some more DF27 guys for this forum.

There is a lot of talk here about L21, sure, but, last time I checked, that was neither illegal nor immoral.

Oh come now it wasn't that bad.. I'm just poking some fun at you guys.

Oh, all right then.

But you really should recruit some more DF27 guys, if you can. Lord knows, there should be a lot of them out there.
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Arch Y.
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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2012, 11:21:21 PM »

Dr. Wilson keeps things close to the vest, but it would seem to me that based on his description, these 'new' SNPs are as follows:

S250 - This is likely DF27
S227 - This is likely Z196 or Z195 (based on "...widely spread across Europe from Spain to Russia...")
S225 - This is likely Z225 or Z229 (based on "...is primarily Iberian")

As for the Caucasus link, if you read between the lines, it looks like they found a close match on Y-Search, but that it is more than likely a P312- sample and therefore a false lead.

Would it be premature to say that L176.2, to include SRY2627, should also be primarily Iberian? Not necessarily a point of origin, but a point of common culture for which the subclade should be associated with deep in ancestral history. The Caucasus link is very interesting but I would suspect an ancestral background towards the Armenian/Iranian highlands for R1b and a subsequent movement northwest via the Anatolian Peninsula and a northern movement through the Caucasus and around the Black Sea--oh, and should also not forget the inevitable movements across the Mediterranean Sea to the west.

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2012, 03:42:08 AM »

Whereas on this forum Richard Rocca tries to reason, his colleague Magoon on Rootsweb is clearly creating myths, and that Mikewww doesn’t say that he is simply giving a news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-19012179

What in the original paper and in the thinking of Jim Wilson was only an hypothesis with many caveats becomes here a truth: “Analysis of DNA from the 13th generation of Evan's descendants is now indicating that the brothers came from an area of the Caucasus Mountains, including Georgia, Ossetia and Southern Russia […]But early on in the analysis we were able to rule out British or Spanish descent, and now, after studying 300 gigabytes of data, our team at Edinburgh University have found 48 out of 51 points of similarity with DNA originating in the Caucasus”, and the statement is also ridiculous with those 300 gigabytes for a simply STRs compare.

This is how many truths have been created by the “sacred monsters” and by their power, the fourth one, but “to spread false rumours” in Italy is a crime.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 04:12:20 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2012, 05:16:14 PM »

Whereas on this forum Richard Rocca tries to reason, his colleague Magoon on Rootsweb is clearly creating myths, and that Mikewww doesn’t say that he is simply giving a news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-19012179
....
This is how many truths have been created by the “sacred monsters” and by their power, the fourth one, but “to spread false rumours” in Italy is a crime.

I don't think I have commented one iota about this article and the Anglesey bonesetter. I'm not even sure what false rumours you are talking about and definitely don't know the law in Italy.

Maybe the windmills are winning. I'm just not sure what card game they are winning at.

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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2012, 08:36:21 PM »

So, where are most DF27* people today?  Its very tempting to just think on balance of probabilities that it was an Iberian ship.  One thing stuck me though.  You would expect in those days the local men of learning would be the local minister and (I might be wrong here) but would even a Protestant minister in the 18th century not have some knowledge of Latin?  You would think someone with a knowledge of Latin would be able to have some words in common if the guy was Spanish or even if the guy had a latin catholic background. A DF27* guy on the west Atlantic seaways but not with a trace of latinate common vocab that a local minister would pick up on?  Could he have been a Basque?  They were well known sailors?
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A.D.
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« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2012, 10:03:21 PM »

If he was a captive or slave or just been at sea from a v.young age he could have been speaking with an unusual accent and a lot of 'sailors slang' (words from different languages etc). Maybe something like that obscured what would otherwise been an identifiable language.
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Arch Y.
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« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2012, 04:33:45 AM »

So, where are most DF27* people today?  Its very tempting to just think on balance of probabilities that it was an Iberian ship.  One thing stuck me though.  You would expect in those days the local men of learning would be the local minister and (I might be wrong here) but would even a Protestant minister in the 18th century not have some knowledge of Latin?  You would think someone with a knowledge of Latin would be able to have some words in common if the guy was Spanish or even if the guy had a latin catholic background. A DF27* guy on the west Atlantic seaways but not with a trace of latinate common vocab that a local minister would pick up on?  Could he have been a Basque?  They were well known sailors?
Good point about the Basque possibility. DF27 so far looks Iberian to me. If its not Iberian, then certainly nearby it and what could this mean? Gascon?
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Jdean
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« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2012, 10:04:36 AM »

So, where are most DF27* people today?  Its very tempting to just think on balance of probabilities that it was an Iberian ship.  One thing stuck me though.  You would expect in those days the local men of learning would be the local minister and (I might be wrong here) but would even a Protestant minister in the 18th century not have some knowledge of Latin?  You would think someone with a knowledge of Latin would be able to have some words in common if the guy was Spanish or even if the guy had a latin catholic background. A DF27* guy on the west Atlantic seaways but not with a trace of latinate common vocab that a local minister would pick up on?  Could he have been a Basque?  They were well known sailors?

I have an early copy of The Natural History of Selborne, which freely switches between Latin and English.
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samIsaack
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« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2012, 02:33:51 AM »

Dr. Wilson keeps things close to the vest, but it would seem to me that based on his description, these 'new' SNPs are as follows:

S250 - This is likely DF27
S227 - This is likely Z196 or Z195 (based on "...widely spread across Europe from Spain to Russia...")
S225 - This is likely Z225 or Z229 (based on "...is primarily Iberian")

As for the Caucasus link, if you read between the lines, it looks like they found a close match on Y-Search, but that it is more than likely a P312- sample and therefore a false lead.

Would it be premature to say that L176.2, to include SRY2627, should also be primarily Iberian? Not necessarily a point of origin, but a point of common culture for which the subclade should be associated with deep in ancestral history. The Caucasus link is very interesting but I would suspect an ancestral background towards the Armenian/Iranian highlands for R1b and a subsequent movement northwest via the Anatolian Peninsula and a northern movement through the Caucasus and around the Black Sea--oh, and should also not forget the inevitable movements across the Mediterranean Sea to the west.

Arch


Its way too early in the game to say DF27 is Iberian or anything for that matter.. As tempting as it may be based on modern frequencies. Thats the thing I've never understood.. why are we so quick to slap the Iberian label on DF27 based solely on modern frequencies, yet we aren't calling L21 the essential Celtic marker or Irish marker as much as some of the L21 guys would like to (Before anyone gets their knickers in a bind, I say this in a light-hearted manner) ?

If Jim Wilson and the gang are saying it isn't Iberian and are leaning towards a much more eastern origin point, then I'm all the more convinced that DF27 had origins further east. They have access to much more data than we do and have spent much more time in trying to decipher origins than we have. DF27 had to have had an origin point similar to U152 if the age estimates are correct and we aren't calling U152 Iberian.. at least we weren't the last time I checked anyways.
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