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Author Topic: New Geographic terms for Haplogroups/Subclades  (Read 2556 times)
gtc
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« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2012, 09:49:01 AM »

This doesn't always work the way it is "supposed to". In this case if the shoe was on the other foot the answer wouldn't have necessarily been as superficially logical.

There's a guy on FTDNA forums who is superficially Eruo-looking and he tested as hg B!

This is so rare that FTDNA re-ran his test a number of times to make sure they weren't in error. He has Spanish roots so there's some suggestion of Moors, etc, but he's quite alone in the various databases.

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Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
rms2
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« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2012, 10:00:23 AM »

I have no problem with the idea of the various streams that flow into my family river. For example, I know from contact with relatives that one of the y lines on my father's side is I-M253. That line has been traced back to England and so is most likely Anglo-Saxon or Danish Viking. Cool. Fine.

Another of the y lines on my father's side is E1b1b. The immigrant ancestor in that case came from Northern Ireland but the surname is English. I think its ultimate source was probably a Roman soldier or merchant (but of course I don't know for sure). That's cool, too.

I identify most strongly with my own y-dna line, but that's by choice and with the understanding that no one, including me, is a "pure" anything.

It's all good.

But the source of the current drama is the exact opposite feeling, that it's not all good, that it would be a bad thing to be of some kind of Germanic extraction on one's y-dna line.

I won't start using bland, non-committal geographic categories merely to pander to persons with that feeling.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 10:00:58 AM by rms2 » Logged

vineviz
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« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2012, 10:10:31 AM »

Are the exceptions to prevent us from saying anything meaningful about a y haplogroup with sufficient brevity to render it intelligible? Or must we direct every inquirer to all that is known about a y haplogroup with the admonition, "Figure it out for yourself"?

I think the question should always be whether the labels are telling us anything useful or not.  Also, is there a better way to communicate?

If it is true that most R-U106 men come from Germanic-speaking countries, I see no problem in saying that.

Saying that R-U106 is a Germanic haplogroup takes on a whole extra layer of assumptions that make me uncomfortable.
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rms2
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« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2012, 10:23:51 AM »

Are the exceptions to prevent us from saying anything meaningful about a y haplogroup with sufficient brevity to render it intelligible? Or must we direct every inquirer to all that is known about a y haplogroup with the admonition, "Figure it out for yourself"?

I think the question should always be whether the labels are telling us anything useful or not.  Also, is there a better way to communicate?

If it is true that most R-U106 men come from Germanic-speaking countries, I see no problem in saying that.

Saying that R-U106 is a Germanic haplogroup takes on a whole extra layer of assumptions that make me uncomfortable.

I wouldn't put it that last way. I would say something like, "U106 appears to have a strong connection to Germanic peoples", or even that it "appears to be mostly Germanic". Most people would understand that and probably wouldn't need a dozen caveats about exceptions.

In places like Ireland, and this is really just one more thread about U106 and Ireland, the documented history of invasion and settlement by people from places where U106 is a lot more common than it is in Ireland itself is well known.

That makes it very likely, with all the caveats that we don't know for sure about each individual case, etc., that a U106+ result in Ireland means y line descent from one of those invaders or settlers. Very likely, not absolutely certain.

That's about as good as it gets without some kind of good paper trail or excellent, high-resolution match.
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gtc
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« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2012, 10:42:44 AM »


In places like Ireland, and this is really just one more thread about U106 and Ireland, the documented history of invasion and settlement by people from places where U106 is a lot more common than it is in Ireland itself is well known.

.... not to mention the possibility of the farmer jumping the fence (aka NPE).
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Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
vineviz
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« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2012, 10:46:01 AM »

I wouldn't put it that last way. I would say something like, "U106 appears to have a strong connection to Germanic peoples", or even that it "appears to be mostly Germanic". Most people would understand that and probably wouldn't need a dozen caveats about exceptions.

In places like Ireland, and this is really just one more thread about U106 and Ireland, the documented history of invasion and settlement by people from places where U106 is a lot more common than it is in Ireland itself is well known.

That seems reasonable.
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Jdean
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« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2012, 12:01:08 PM »

I wouldn't put it that last way. I would say something like, "U106 appears to have a strong connection to Germanic peoples", or even that it "appears to be mostly Germanic". Most people would understand that and probably wouldn't need a dozen caveats about exceptions.

In places like Ireland, and this is really just one more thread about U106 and Ireland, the documented history of invasion and settlement by people from places where U106 is a lot more common than it is in Ireland itself is well known.

That seems reasonable.

Yep !

Bet somebody moans about it, I can just hear somebody typing myopic in the background :)
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eochaidh
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« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2012, 12:44:08 PM »


I won't start using bland, non-committal geographic categories merely to pander to persons with that feeling.

No one ever said you had to.

I'll use the terms because I think they better fit what we know. L21 is a Western European Subclade. DF23 appears to be an Atlantic Subclade.

I happen to know exactly to the farmhouse where I'm from, but I realize that not everyone does. If an adopted male took a test and found out he was DF23, I would hope that he understands that this doesn't define all of his ancestry. I would also hope that he wouldn't think that being DF23 would make him absolutely Welsh, or absolutely Irish.

A good example is my T2g mtDNA result. Because mtDNA Haplogroup T2 is found in low levels around Europe it hasn't been pinpointed and is given more general descriptions. One generalized description is that it came into Western Europe with Neolithic Farming. Do I know for certain my line came in from farming? No. It could have come to Brittany with the Alans. However, if you left it to the way some people treat Y-DNA, they would go to its area of highest frequency and theorized origin and tell me that I am a Jewish Iranian on my mother's side. :) Wow! All of this time I stupidly thought I was French-Canadian on my Mom's side and I'm really Iranian Jewish!

I have read posts from many on here complaining that people won't test for L21 because they think it is Irish, or from The Isles. Perhaps they would have been more likely to test if they heard it was found mostly in Western Europe and possibly had its origin there.
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Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
rms2
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« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2012, 12:53:28 PM »

People who have serious reservations about what their dna test results might show them should avoid dna testing altogether.

Calling something "Western European" instead of "mostly insular Celtic" or "mostly Germanic" won't protect their sensibilities for long.

What if the person thinks of himself as something other than European and gets a "Western European" result?

What then?

A new classification perhaps? Homo sapiens sapiens?

Hide the distribution maps?
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eochaidh
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« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2012, 01:19:27 PM »

People who have serious reservations about what their dna test results might show them should avoid dna testing altogether.

Calling something "Western European" instead of "mostly insular Celtic" or "mostly Germanic" won't protect their sensibilities for long.

What if the person thinks of himself as something other than European and gets a "Western European" result?

What then?

A new classification perhaps? Homo sapiens sapiens?

Hide the distribution maps?

If a person gets a result that is surprising to them they will try to learn more about it. Hopefully, they will nor run into people on forums who tell them it must be because of an NPE or that an invading army is the reason for their surprising result.

The fact is, that with any surprising result, we don't know how it came about. We can say that, although their certain Haplogroup or Subclade is most often found in an area, there could be many reasons how they ended up with it. Of course, one of the answers may be that their information about their background is incorrect.

Autosomal test have given many of us surprising results. Native Irish guys with cousins from Russia and Germany, people like me with higher than average Caucasus scores, French-Canadians who land squarely among Irish testers on maps and so on. And, of course, you can imagine the answers people come up with on forums!!!! As all of you know, the idea that any Irish person ever left Ireland to go to the Continent is scoffed at, yet there is ample evidence of Irish nannies going to Russia. Still, there is no definite answer. It appears that some Cornish people also have high Caucasus scores and that may show up in my Breton ancestry. We never truly know.

Well, I should say that I don't know. Others on these forums do know and are able to tell anyone with a surprising score just what their background is.

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Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
rms2
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« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2012, 01:43:35 PM »

When has anyone here ever said they know all the answers with absolute certainty?

I know in my own posts I have always qualified everything by talking about likelihood and whether or not something is likely, not whether or not it is merely possible.

We also discuss the evidence and the preponderance of the evidence.

I don't usually mention NPEs because I think that term has a bad or immoral connotation, when in fact NPEs in the past were often the product of informal adoption rather than of marital infidelity (not that infidelity never occurred).

As for invading armies, and all that, sometimes that's the answer. Why withhold information for fear that someone might not like it, unless they tell you up front they don't want to hear about that sort of thing? If they tell you that, then you would know that person has little interest in the truth, and you could ignore him.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 01:44:20 PM by rms2 » Logged

samIsaack
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« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2012, 02:11:27 PM »


I won't start using bland, non-committal geographic categories merely to pander to persons with that feeling.

A good example is my T2g mtDNA result. Because mtDNA Haplogroup T2 is found in low levels around Europe it hasn't been pinpointed and is given more general descriptions. One generalized description is that it came into Western Europe with Neolithic Farming. Do I know for certain my line came in from farming? No. It could have come to Brittany with the Alans. However, if you left it to the way some people treat Y-DNA, they would go to its area of highest frequency and theorized origin and tell me that I am a Jewish Iranian on my mother's side. :) Wow! All of this time I stupidly thought I was French-Canadian on my Mom's side and I'm really Iranian Jewish!

I feel your pain on that one! I guess our Mito grouping would be considered something of a sister relation (JT split). All I know of my group is that it is found in Northern Germany, Scandinavia and Great Britain.. thats for my specific J1c8 group. So, all I really know or can speculate on is the exact same origin theory/speculation they give to you T's. Though I've heard for J1c, of the varities in the U.K., that it was likely brought there by the Vikings. I guess a broad, general hypothesis is better than nothing. I also have the super-human ability to produce heat in frigid enviroments lol.. though if I contract the aids virus I'm pretty much s.o.l. Quicker than all those H's anyways.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2012, 02:16:40 PM »

I'm not allowed to use the second person singular, but I'd say the the key word used by the guy who wrote the above post is "sometimes". As in, "As for invading armies, and all that, sometimes that's the answer." But do we know for certain which times the "sometimes" are the answer?  :)

So again, we don't know. Sometimes invading armies could be the answer, sometimes it could be something else. Sometimes. I could be. It might be. It's very likely that.

L21 is a Western European Subclade of R1b. It appears to be about 4,000 years old, and may have its origin in areas that were later populated by Celtic people. Some Subclades of L21 can be better defined from early results. Some of these subclades appear to be confined to The Isles and a person having a test result with one of these Isles type Subclades could make the assumption that their Y-DNA line came from the Isles. It is not known at this time how or when L21 entered the Isles.

DF23 is a Subclade of L21 and early results show that it has been found in The Isles and France. The origin of DF23 is unknown at this time. And so on....

What could be wrong with these descriptions?
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Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2012, 02:32:22 PM »

I'm not allowed to use the second person singular, but I'd say the the key word used by the guy who wrote the above post is "sometimes". As in, "As for invading armies, and all that, sometimes that's the answer." But do we know for certain which times the "sometimes" are the answer?  :)

So again, we don't know. Sometimes invading armies could be the answer, sometimes it could be something else. Sometimes. I could be. It might be. It's very likely that.

L21 is a Western European Subclade of R1b. It appears to be about 4,000 years old, and may have its origin in areas that were later populated by Celtic people. Some Subclades of L21 can be better defined from early results. Some of these subclades appear to be confined to The Isles and a person having a test result with one of these Isles type Subclades could make the assumption that their Y-DNA line came from the Isles. It is not known at this time how or when L21 entered the Isles.

DF23 is a Subclade of L21 and early results show that it has been found in The Isles and France. The origin of DF23 is unknown at this time. And so on....

What could be wrong with these descriptions?

There is nothing wrong with those descriptions, they are very nice.

What is wrong is to expect folks on this forum to use them as a legal disclaimer to start every topic or conversation.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2012, 03:27:40 PM »

I'm not allowed to use the second person singular, but I'd say the the key word used by the guy who wrote the above post is "sometimes". As in, "As for invading armies, and all that, sometimes that's the answer." But do we know for certain which times the "sometimes" are the answer?  :)

So again, we don't know. Sometimes invading armies could be the answer, sometimes it could be something else. Sometimes. I could be. It might be. It's very likely that.

L21 is a Western European Subclade of R1b. It appears to be about 4,000 years old, and may have its origin in areas that were later populated by Celtic people. Some Subclades of L21 can be better defined from early results. Some of these subclades appear to be confined to The Isles and a person having a test result with one of these Isles type Subclades could make the assumption that their Y-DNA line came from the Isles. It is not known at this time how or when L21 entered the Isles.

DF23 is a Subclade of L21 and early results show that it has been found in The Isles and France. The origin of DF23 is unknown at this time. And so on....

What could be wrong with these descriptions?

There is nothing wrong with those descriptions, they are very nice.

What is wrong is to expect folks on this forum to use them as a legal disclaimer to start every topic or conversation.

I'll use them. I don't expect anyone else to use them, nor would I ever wish to force people to use them.

I like them! Honestly, the Atlantic appeals to me for some reason. Terms like Atlantic Facade and Atlantic Arc have the ability to make me feel good. I love looking at a map that shows the Atlantic Arc and when I see the maps of L21 frequency it gives me that "Atlantic" feel. Western Europe also appeals to me. When I think that L21 came to th Isles from Western Europe, my mind immediately pictures a map without borders that runs from what is now The Netherlands to La Rochelle. That may, in fact, not be where L21 came to the Isles from, but gives me a general idea.

When I picture maps without borders, I get a feeling that brings me back to 4,000 years ago and settlements of people. When I think of the Bronze Age, I think of a busy Atlantic and trade up and down the Bay of Biscay and the Isles. That's just me. It's a Google map without borders.

More importantly to me, I'm not Irish because I'm DF23, I'm Irish because of my Dad and his ancestors on both sides as far back as I can trace. I'm not a quarter French-Canadian and a quarter Scots-Irish because of any Haplogroup either. I have that ancestry because of my Mom and her ancestors. They could be L21, J24a, mtDNA T2g, H, anything, it doesn't matter. Nor do the names matter! Hey, you try telling someone you're irish with names like Kehoe, Taaffe and Slamon in your family! Also, in many cases I don't even have a great paper trail! However, I can walk you, along with my cousin, to the gravestone in Kilrush Parish and show you my great, great, great grandfather. Stone trail.

People will find their own identities and they will find their own ways to define their own identities. I have found mine. Unfortunately, there are others who will not allow others to define themselves their own way. One need only read these forums to see that.
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Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
rms2
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« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2012, 03:34:29 PM »

. . .

Unfortunately, there are others who will not allow others to define themselves their own way. One need only read these forums to see that.


You were doing fine until you reached for the shovel and decided to muck out the stable with that last line.

Talking about y haplogroups, their distribution, and what they signify in this or that place has nothing whatsoever to do with not allowing others to "define themselves in their own way".

I mean, who cares what I or anyone else here thinks, anyway?

Define yourself as you will, whoever you are.

That is none of my business, but it won't stop me from expressing my opinion here in this forum, if I have an opinion.

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eochaidh
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« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2012, 03:38:01 PM »

Perfect!
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Y-DNA: R1b DF23
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rms2
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« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2012, 03:42:19 PM »

Besides, the problem here lately has not even remotely been about not allowing others to define themselves in their own way.

It's been about hardly allowing a thread to go by without some cockamamie wild goose chase into the nightmare world of Irish U106 and how it's "myopic" to think it might be Germanic.
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stoneman
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« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2012, 03:46:18 PM »

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« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 04:46:18 PM by Terry Barton » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2012, 03:56:39 PM »

Chill out folks.  Think back about 4 years when all we had was M269 and all we knew is we were vaguely west Eurasian.  Now we have Europe broken into (overlapping) geographical blocks and of course more localised subclades.  Its progress.  Be happy.
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rms2
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« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2012, 04:03:10 PM »

Chill out folks.  Think back about 4 years when all we had was M269 and all we knew is we were vaguely west Eurasian.  Now we have Europe broken into (overlapping) geographical blocks and of course more localised subclades.  Its progress.  Be happy.

Sometimes I miss those old days! ;-)

(But not much!)
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2012, 06:56:16 PM »

Similarly, there are quite a few East European Jews who are L21+. North Atlantic? Not in their cases.

Absolutely agree. I keep trying to be open-minded about our little Jewish subset of L21+ (now maybe DF13* subclade) being something other than Eastern Europe Ashkenazi, but I just don't yet see the evidence that we came from some North Atlantic convert to the tribe. As I've said before, when are some non-Jewish L21+ testers that match our 1111EE haplotype going to show up? Just one would do. In the meantime, I will just cling to my little ethnic haplotype and presume we just came late to the big Rhineland party, joining up with other P312, L459, L21, DF13 folks that arrived way early.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

rms2
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« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2012, 07:01:13 PM »

BTW, there's an L583+ category on the project's Y-DNA Results pages now. Maybe some more guys will test for that one.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2012, 08:14:02 PM »

BTW, there's an L583+ category on the project's Y-DNA Results pages now. Maybe some more guys will test for that one.

I keep asking our third known L583+ to join the project, but he hasn't yet. Not sure why, maybe he went on a vacation. He is a 66/67 match to Burde and a 63/67 to Yurzditsky. I'll keep reminding him.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

seferhabahir
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« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2012, 08:19:17 PM »

By the way, your colors somehow got turned off at the top of page 3 for the second part of the C. Group on the project pages. Either an FTDNA glitch or an operator error.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

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