World Families Forums - Geographic origins of L21?

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
September 16, 2014, 05:44:51 PM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Geographic origins of L21?
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Geographic origins of L21?  (Read 1087 times)
Mkk
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


« on: August 08, 2012, 06:17:07 AM »

There's a lot of L21 in Britain, and this has led some to speculate it originated there. But, from the L21 project, there's a fair bit of L21 outside Britain, particularly in the historically Celtic areas on both sides of the Rhine.

So could L21 migrate with the Celts, or originate  in Britain?
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2012, 06:24:36 AM »

My own personal opinion is that L21 originated among the Beaker Folk, and probably in France. It went to the Isles from there or possibly to the Rhineland first and thence to the Isles.

I don't think L21 was the only Beaker y haplogroup. There were others, but probably most if not all of them were P312+. I think an early form of Celtic went to the Isles with the Beaker Folk, which is still reflected in the Q-Celtic spoken in Ireland and in places colonized by the Irish, like the Isle of Man and western Scotland.

Just my opinion.
Logged

Mike Forsythe
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2012, 06:36:23 AM »

Sorry Rich, I don't understand...are you then saying all L21 was/is Q-Celtic?
Logged
Dubhthach
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2012, 06:49:43 AM »

Sorry Rich, I don't understand...are you then saying all L21 was/is Q-Celtic?

To clear up some confusion about this. Proto-Celtic by definition was "Q-Celtic" it's only later that a branch of this proto-Celtic underwent a sound shift from Q -> P, ideally though Rich should probably had said "Proto-Celtic" speakers to avoid confusion regarding later divisions in the language family.

The sound is actually inherited from Proto-IE.
Logged
Mike Forsythe
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2012, 07:06:11 AM »

 I think his reference too Q-Celtic was more in-line with Ireland, Western Scotland , and the Isles of Man..
Logged
Dubhthach
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2012, 07:23:57 AM »

I think his reference too Q-Celtic was more in-line with Ireland, Western Scotland , and the Isles of Man..

The point that I think Rich is making is that Proto-Celtic spread into Ireland with the beakers. There along with in Iberia the local versions remained more conservative and perserved the "q" phoneme. Whereas in areas of Celtic speaking world most influenced by La Tene material culture we see a sound shift from Q -> P. As a result Gaulish and Proto-Brythonic became P-Celtic languages. This sound shift probably dates from the beginning of the Iron age and probably spread with La Tene material culture.

Both Ireland and Iberia were on the periphery during this period as a result we see the perservation of more "archaic" features in Goidelic (using "archaic Irish" as proxy) and Celtiberian. Both of which could be classed as "q-Celtic"
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 07:24:28 AM by Dubhthach » Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2012, 08:35:32 AM »

I think his reference too Q-Celtic was more in-line with Ireland, Western Scotland , and the Isles of Man..

The point that I think Rich is making is that Proto-Celtic spread into Ireland with the beakers. There along with in Iberia the local versions remained more conservative and perserved the "q" phoneme. Whereas in areas of Celtic speaking world most influenced by La Tene material culture we see a sound shift from Q -> P. As a result Gaulish and Proto-Brythonic became P-Celtic languages. This sound shift probably dates from the beginning of the Iron age and probably spread with La Tene material culture.

Both Ireland and Iberia were on the periphery during this period as a result we see the perservation of more "archaic" features in Goidelic (using "archaic Irish" as proxy) and Celtiberian. Both of which could be classed as "q-Celtic"


That is exactly what I meant. I should have said Proto-Celtic, but I meant the same thing by "an early form of Celtic".

Logged

eochaidh
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 400


« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2012, 05:55:15 PM »

The geographic origin of the R1b Subclade L21 seems to be Western Europe. Perhaps even Atlantic Europe.
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2012, 07:36:12 PM »

Here's a probable L21+ guy from Atlantic Europe. ;-)
Logged

Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2012, 08:23:04 PM »

There's a lot of L21 in Britain, and this has led some to speculate it originated there. But, from the L21 project, there's a fair bit of L21 outside Britain, particularly in the historically Celtic areas on both sides of the Rhine.

So could L21 migrate with the Celts, or originate  in Britain?

I think that the big problem here is one of perspective. Let's say a chap in Canada is thinking about his origins. Let's say he has an Irish surname. So from his perspective, his paternal origins are in Ireland. So he expects to be told that his haplogroup (which by way of illustration happens to be L21) is Irish. Of course it is in the sense that there is masses of it in Ireland, it has been there since the Copper Age (we think), and  that is where his ancestor took off from. From his perspective L21 originates in Ireland.

If we start to ask how L21 got to Ireland, that is a different story - way, way, way back in time and really pretty irrelevant to the chap in Canada thinking about his origins. Humankind came from Africa. That does not make us all Africans.

Oddly enough the origin stories so much loved in Ireland talk about wave after wave of people coming into the island, not all that far back in time. Until recently the idea that the Celts arrived in the Iron Age was widely accepted. But start talking about L21 arriving in Ireland, rather than arising there, and the balloon goes up. :)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 08:29:23 PM by Jean M » Logged
OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2012, 09:23:40 PM »

 

 I seem to want to hold open other possibilities. L21 appears (to me) to be maritime. Along the northern Euro coast from Scandinavia to Portugal
and throughout the Isles. And down tributaries like the Rhine. 

Should not L21 be more wide-spread through Continental Europe? Or did I miss something in L21's continental existance

My thinking is not scientifically derived, it is only what I see as a possibility.
(in my own mind)

I am not a viking wannabe.

I thought of the possibility of L21 spreading west, perhaps Bronze Age, well before accepted Viking times. And also possibly during such Norse times. I do want to hold onto the idea that L21 may have spread west from Scandinavia or the Low-Land countries to the west of Denmark.
For me L21's origin is an open window.

Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2012, 02:35:59 AM »



 I seem to want to hold open other possibilities. L21 appears (to me) to be maritime. Along the northern Euro coast from Scandinavia to Portugal
and throughout the Isles. And down tributaries like the Rhine.  

Should not L21 be more wide-spread through Continental Europe? Or did I miss something in L21's continental existance

My thinking is not scientifically derived, it is only what I see as a possibility.
(in my own mind)

I am not a viking wannabe.

I thought of the possibility of L21 spreading west, perhaps Bronze Age, well before accepted Viking times. And also possibly during such Norse times. I do want to hold onto the idea that L21 may have spread west from Scandinavia or the Low-Land countries to the west of Denmark.
For me L21's origin is an open window.


For all we know, some ancient people laden with R-P312* and R-L21 or R-L11* reached Scandinavia by ship and essentially facilitated or were the foundation for a group of expert Scandinavian sea travelers that eventually produced groups of people we call Vikings.

I'm not an ancient ship archaeologist. Do we know what kind of boats the the Bell Beakers used.  Were they far advanced?  Are there technologies they used that would have been the starting point of a ship building craft that led to the Viking long boats?

The Beaker Culture Wikipedia article says, about the culture in Britain:
Quote
Another site of particular interest is Ferriby on the Humber estuary, where western Europe’s oldest plank built boat was recovered.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 02:40:22 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2012, 04:15:06 AM »

Our knowledge of the first sea-going Scandinavian vessels comes from the thousands of Bronze Age rock carvings of ships. Actual ships do not survive from that time, but the Hjortspring boat dating from 300-400 BC, with two timber horn-like extensions at prow and stern is like those shown in the rock engravings much earlier.

Fully seagoing ships seem to have entered Scandinavia in the Copper Age, since it is at that point that we can see Bell Beaker artifacts moving direct from Jutland to the Scandinavian peninsula.  
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 04:16:06 AM by Jean M » Logged
Heber
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2012, 09:09:37 AM »

Other ancient boating traditions on the Atlantic Facade trading between Iberia, France and The Isles (possibly involved in the transport of L21) were:
  • Gaelic Currach
  • Phoenician Byblos Ships

http://www.phoenician.org/ancient_ships.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessos

http://www.aran-isles.com/currachs.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc1SkNsYHig

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/columban1.asp
Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



razyn
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 406


« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2012, 09:36:55 AM »

I don't see why it's crazy to suggest this Bronze (or Copper) Age maritime stuff on a DF27 thread, but to say it about L21 gets a lively discussion.  Is that because Ireland is an island, and Iberia isn't?  Or, isn't yet...

Anyway, I spoke of the Dover Boat, and this thread has the Ferriby Boat.  They aren't all that different, in terms of their age and, I believe, the shipbuilding technology ("sewn" boats).
Logged

R1b Z196*
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2012, 09:47:55 AM »

I don't see why it's crazy to suggest this Bronze (or Copper) Age maritime stuff on a DF27 thread, but to say it about L21 gets a lively discussion.  Is that because Ireland is an island, and Iberia isn't?  Or, isn't yet...

Anyway, I spoke of the Dover Boat, and this thread has the Ferriby Boat.  They aren't all that different, in terms of their age and, I believe, the shipbuilding technology ("sewn" boats).

I don't know the right answer, but I think these guys are suggesting a west-to-east maritime movement for L21, while I think you suggested the opposite for DF27 (from the Baltic west).

I'm not disagreeing with you, because I don't know. I'm just saying I think they're catching less heat because they are suggesting west-to-east, at least by boat, anyway.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 09:48:56 AM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2012, 10:11:23 AM »

Other ancient boating traditions on the Atlantic Facade trading between Iberia, France and The Isles (possibly involved in the transport of L21) were:
  • Gaelic Currach
  • Phoenician Byblos Ships

http://www.phoenician.org/ancient_ships.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessos

http://www.aran-isles.com/currachs.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc1SkNsYHig

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/columban1.asp

Great links, Heber. I especially enjoyed the Aran Islands piece on Irish currachs.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



razyn
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 406


« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2012, 03:36:08 PM »

Well here's the Dover Boat:

http://www.doverdc.co.uk/museum/bronze_age_boat.aspx

I've been meaning to get a book about her, but haven't gotten around to it.  Cunliffe in Celtic from the West alludes to the essay by Stuart Needham in this 2009 book, which I haven't yet seen:

http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/ID/85643//Location/DBBC

And here's an early, putatively Russian sewn boat, found in Sweden:

http://www.sjohistoriska.se/Kusten-runt/Marinarkeologi/Blogg/Jim-Hansson/Vraket-vid-Grand-Hotell-visade-sig-vara-ett-unikt-fynd/

The guy who is doing the most work with this technology, as far as I know, is Mika Naimark in Russia (Karelia, I think).  Here's part of his extensive web presence:

http://www.sewboat.narod.ru/aspen/english.htm

In general I believe that "seaworthy" boats made of ox hide were popular in places that had oxen, but didn't have much in the line of trees.  Sewn boats were popular in places that had large deciduous trees; willow (roots) or something for making twine; moss for caulking; resinous trees, for pitch -- and maybe even some beast with branching antlers, suitable for making the tool that tightens the twine that binds any extra side strakes to the basic dugout log.

Anyway, the subject is complex and specialized, and most of the literature of linguistics, archaeology, and genetics looks right past it.  So I just mention it, as probably germane to the spread of such haplogroups as may have taken a more northern path into western Europe -- e.g. by coming up the Volga or down the Vistula, that sort of route anyway -- not involving the Pillars of Hercules, nor the Iron Gates of the Danube; and not involving the herding of livestock as part of the initial (migratory, exploratory, or simply commercial) wave.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 01:14:07 AM by razyn » Logged

R1b Z196*
OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2012, 06:44:16 PM »

people probably made boats that would do for their needs. I'm sure even some Greek and Roman people had small boats for things like fishing or taking their wares to market. Unlike their warrior vessels. If there was a need for larger vessels for moving people, perhaps they would have had them. I don't see Ireland as having a large invasion force in need of large ships.
...just my thought.
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.105 seconds with 19 queries.