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Author Topic: The Current State of R-L21  (Read 1186 times)
rms2
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« on: August 07, 2012, 02:28:38 PM »

*The Current State of L21 (07 August 2012): The discovery of the SNP DF13 has split L21 into a very large DF13+ group and a thus far much smaller DF13- group. All of the known L21 subclades except DF63 are DF13+, meaning they are downstream of DF13, as well as L21.

If you are L21+ and have not yet tested positive for one of the L21 subclades, you should test for DF13.
If you get a DF13+ result, then you can focus on testing for the known DF13+ subclades: DF23, L513, L96, L144, Z255, Z253, DF21, L371, and DF41. DF49 is thought to be between DF13 and DF23, but that has not been confirmed yet. If you get a positive result for one of those subclades, then you can focus on the branches of those subclades. If you have already tested positive for one of the DF13 subclades, you do not need to test for DF13.

If you get a DF13- result, you should test for DF63. Thus far, it is the only known subclade of L21 that is DF13-.

It is possible to be both DF13- and DF63-, however. We have a few men in that category already.

I realize much if not all of this has been discussed here before, but I wanted to lay it all out in one place in summary form, so that L21+ men or their sponsors who are not yet aware of it can see it.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 02:29:58 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2012, 03:29:20 PM »

I hope everyone gets this message and understands it. I posted it on Rootsweb and at FTDNA's forum, as well. I also posted it on the Background page of the R-L21 Plus Project.

I would send it out as a bulk email to project members, but I just sent a bulk email yesterday. My bulk emails irritate some folks, so I try to be sparing with them.

We have had a few DF13 orders since my bulk email yesterday and the rearranging of the project categories to reflect the DF13+/DF13- split.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 03:30:04 PM by rms2 » Logged

vineviz
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« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2012, 03:49:51 PM »

Did you post at http://www.anthrogenica.com/forum.php yet?

If you don't want to join, I can repost it verbatim for you.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2012, 03:50:47 PM »

I agree it's important that the project progresses with understanding these high level splits in the L21 family tree.

True L21* (DF13- DF63-), DF64, and DF13* folks are critical to understanding L21.

Even though it appears to be one step above L21, understanding L459+ L21- people is just as important.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
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« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2012, 06:34:55 PM »

Did you post at http://www.anthrogenica.com/forum.php yet?

If you don't want to join, I can repost it verbatim for you.

I would really appreciate it if you did that, yes.

I don't really want to join another forum.
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vineviz
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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2012, 07:10:27 PM »

I don't really want to join another forum.

Done.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?76-The-Current-State-of-L21&p=256#post256

I think its going to be a good forum, though. I hope you'll at least lurk.
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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2012, 11:38:39 AM »

Last night's test results altered the state of R-L21 significantly, moving DF23 from major branch to branchlet and establishing that DF49 is indeed between DF13 and DF23.

Now the DF13+ branch SNPs are: DF49, L513, L96, L144, Z255, Z253, DF21, L371, and DF41.

So, there you go. Now you can start throwing money at those. ;-)
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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2012, 11:46:36 AM »

Last night's test results altered the state of R-L21 significantly, moving DF23 from major branch to branchlet and establishing that DF49 is indeed between DF13 and DF23.

Now the DF13+ branch SNPs are: DF49, L513, L96, L144, Z255, Z253, DF21, L371, and DF41.

So, there you go. Now you can start throwing money at those. ;-)


I should add that we are still waiting on the DF49 test of a representative of L371. If it turns out he is DF49+, that will mean L371 is a branchlet off of DF49 rather than a branch in its own right, and then we can take it off the list.
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Mike Forsythe
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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2012, 12:09:31 PM »

why is L371 a branch of D13 when you have it as a branchlet below DF49
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2012, 12:14:27 PM »

why is L371 a branch of D13 when you have it as a branchlet below DF49

Mike,

I believe what Rich is saying is if the L371+ testee who has DF49 ordered comes back as DF49+ that L371 will be a branchlet under DF49. At the moment we don't know it's status with regard to DF49, so it's a branch of DF13. If he comes back as DF49- then L371 will keep it's current position in the tree.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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rms2
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« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2012, 12:18:24 PM »

why is L371 a branch of D13 when you have it as a branchlet below DF49

Mike,

I believe what Rich is saying is if the L371+ testee who has DF49 ordered comes back as DF49+ that L371 will be a branchlet under DF49. At the moment we don't know it's status with regard to DF49, so it's a branch of DF13. If he comes back as DF49- then L371 will keep it's current position in the tree.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Correct. We are waiting to find out where L371 is relative to DF49.
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Mike Forsythe
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« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2012, 01:14:47 PM »

Ok thanks, I have recently ordered Z255, DF21 and L513, and if I test negative for these SNPs, I would like to keep track of my next options..
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Mike Forsythe
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« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2012, 01:45:00 PM »

Here is where I’m at thus far so 4 or possibly 5 more to go. Having run my 67 markers through Casey's predictor, I was a 5% probability for L555 and the rest of the haplogroups were at zero. Should have tested for L555 first rather than L255.

L21+ DF13+ Z253- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L226- L193- L159.2- L144- DF49-
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df.reynolds
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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2012, 02:43:15 PM »

Here is where I’m at thus far so 4 or possibly 5 more to go. Having run my 67 markers through Casey's predictor, I was a 5% probability for L555 and the rest of the haplogroups were at zero. Should have tested for L555 first rather than L255.

L21+ DF13+ Z253- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L226- L193- L159.2- L144- DF49-

Casey's predictor only works for smaller clades that have a well-defined footprint. Z255, DF21 and L513, are large, old, and diverse and the predictor does not provide a useful prediction for them.

You did the right thing, starting with the large, most-likely, clades. The odds of you testing positive for L555 is right around zero.

--david
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2012, 03:45:42 PM »

Here is where I’m at thus far so 4 or possibly 5 more to go. Having run my 67 markers through Casey's predictor, I was a 5% probability for L555 and the rest of the haplogroups were at zero. Should have tested for L555 first rather than L255.

L21+ DF13+ Z253- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L226- L193- L159.2- L144- DF49-

Casey's predictor only works for smaller clades that have a well-defined footprint. Z255, DF21 and L513, are large, old, and diverse and the predictor does not provide a useful prediction for them.

You did the right thing, starting with the large, most-likely, clades. The odds of you testing positive for L555 is right around zero.

--david

And the odds of you testing positive for SNPs L526 and L583, also currently under DF13, would likely be less than zero.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Mark Jost
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« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2012, 03:58:00 PM »

Here is where I’m at thus far so 4 or possibly 5 more to go. Having run my 67 markers through Casey's predictor, I was a 5% probability for L555 and the rest of the haplogroups were at zero. Should have tested for L555 first rather than L255.

L21+ DF13+ Z253- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L226- L193- L159.2- L144- DF49-


I have previously replied to your PM'd that you should test for the Big Five. L555 wasnt an option other than you tested at only 5% with the Casey program and you were an outlier haplotype with several other DF13 Subclade haplotypes as close GDs. These you shouldn't assume that they are your SNPs as it is a high probability that convergence is in effect.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mike Forsythe
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« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2012, 06:39:54 PM »

Hopefully I'll get a positive result from one of the three...

I appreciate all of your help!!
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