World Families Forums - The expansion of R-L51* from the Italian Refugium

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 18, 2014, 08:34:47 PM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  The expansion of R-L51* from the Italian Refugium
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: The expansion of R-L51* from the Italian Refugium  (Read 469 times)
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2103


« on: August 06, 2012, 03:55:17 AM »


A friend of mine, a Ligurian, Marco Grassi, asks me about the haplotype of a friend of his, Attuoni, from Sestri Levante, Liguria. This is the haplotype:

13 24 14 10 11-14 13 12 11 13 13 28 (ySearch 2PA9F)

Which haplotype? Probably a R-L51* for its DYS426=13. Searching on ySearch, there are many close haplotypes, some Germans, but above all from the Isles. Of course I have suggested to do a SNP test (only L51 à la carte) and, if he can, an upgrade.
Above all he should verify if he matches the interesting Shelton, Greensboro, North Carolina, USA, ySearch SERF9, who has DYS448=20 instead of 19, but above all DYS445=13 instead of 12 and DYF406S1=11 instead of 10. These are a few markers tested by him. Of course also an upgrade of Shelton would be interesting.

P.S. Of course a German origin cannot be excluded, also for the origin of the surname:

Attone ed Attoni sono praticamente quasi unici, Attuoni, abbastanza raro, è specifico di Carrara, questi cognomi dovrebbero derivare dalla forma declinata del nome Ato, Atonis o da un accrescitivo dello stesso nome (vedi ATTA), dell'uso di questa forma abbiamo un esempio in una Carta Commutacionis del 1019 a Bergamo: "... Comutatio bone fidei nossitur esse contractum ut vice emtionis obtineat firmitatem eodemque nexu obliquant contradantes. Placuit itaque et bona convenit voluntate inter domnus Alherium umiles episcopus sancte Bergomensis Eclesie nec non et inter Atone presbitero de ordine sancte Bergomensis Eclesie et filius Leoni de civitate Bergomo...".
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Mkk
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 95


« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2012, 04:35:22 AM »

R-L51*? From the FTDNA samples, there are a few in Italy but others elsewhere too.

185134   Jakob Kaufmann, b. 1530, Bern, Switzerland   R1b1a2a1a   12   24   14   11   11-16   13   12   12   13   13   30
143613   Abraham van Tielroe m. 1639 Domburg, NL   R1b1a2a1a   13   23   14   11   11-14   13   12   12   13   13   28
E4861   Hans Kaspar Amstad, b.c. 1633, Beckenried, CH   R1b1a2a1a   13   23   14   11   11-15   13   12   12   13   13   30
M5032   Al Yafie, Yemen   R1b1a2a1a   13   23   14   11   12-14   13   12   12   14   14   30
41519   Robert Hooks b. 1773   R1b1a2a1a   13   23   14   11   13-14   13   12   12   13   13   29
86538   Patrick Hooks - 1790   R1b1a2a1a   13   23   14   11   13-14   13   12   12   13   13   29
E11319   Adamo Malagodi, ~ 1765 -1850   R1b1a2a1a   13   24   13   10   11-14   13   12   12   13   13   29
N60919   Humberson Lyon 1690-1743   R1b1a2a1a   13   24   14   10   11-14   13   12   12   12   13   28
181881   Ramon Romero, 1804 - 1871   R1b1a2a1a   13   24   14   10   11-16   13   12   12   13   13   29
E5620   Giuliano e Lutio di Abondantio, liv. 1590-1650 c.   R1b1a2a1a   13   24   14   11   11-14   13   12   11   13   13   29
105470   Christopher Fogle(Vogel)1785 Germany1862 New York   R1b1a2a1a   13   24   14   11   11-14   13   12   12   13   13   28
132478   William Greenlaw, b.c. 1642, Longformacus, DT11   R1b1a2a1a   13   24   14   11   11-14   13   12   13   13   14   28
221412   John Scott b.1772 Cramond   R1b1a2a1a   13   24   14   11   11-14   13   12   13   13   14   28
E12456       R1b1a2a1a   13   24   14   11   11-15   13   12   12   13   13   29
22103   John Thomas Warner, b. 1786, SC, d. 1880, LA   R1b1a2a1a   13   24   14   11   11-15   13   12   12   13   13   30
80001   Poland   R1b1a2a1a   13   24   14   11   12-14   13   12   11   14   13   31
97317       R1b1a2a1a   13   24   14   11   12-14   13   12   13   13   14   28
109760   Illés, Bukovina   R1b1a2a1a   13   24   14   11   12-15   13   12   14   13   13   28
67450   Jimmie C. Schumacher, Chicago, IL, US. (b. ~1938)   R1b1a2a1a   13   24   14   11   13-14   13   12   12   13   13   30
80593   Jacob G Abrahams, b.1798, Bonhoefferfeld, Prussia   R1b1a2a1a   13   25   14   10   11-14   13   12   12   12   13   27
148406   Robert Finney, c. 1630-1692 Londonderry, Ireland   R1b1a2a1a   13   25   14   10   11-14   13   12   12   12   13   28
111988   John Collins, b. Northampton Co., Va; d. 1824   R1b1a2a1a   13   25   14   11   11-14   13   12   12   13   13   29
134706   Shadrack Collins, Sr. b.c. 1750, Ireland   R1b1a2a1a   13   25   14   11   11-14   13   12   13   13   13   29
N5273   Andrea Russo, b.1875 and d. 1946   R1b1a2a1a   13   26   14   11   11-14   13   12   12   13   14   28
50168   Ante SORIC, b. 1792-06-13   R1b1a2a1a   14   22   14   12   11-15   13   12   11   13   13   30
46468   Greece - Kasturia (Kesre)   R1b1a2a1a   14   24   14   10   11-14   13   11   14   12   13   28

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?vgroup=ht35new&section=ycolorized

I quote from Mikewww on L23's simmiliar to L11. Most are from the Middle East and eastern Europe.


Quote
f205749   Al-Jeloo   Iraq (Assyrian project)   10
fN51805   Arnwine   zzzUnkOrigin   13
f184555   Bahlavouni   Turkey (Armenian project)   13
f185690   Papazian   Turkey (Armenian project)   14
f177152   Burkholder   Switzerland   17
f213562   David   Iraq (Assyrian project)   17
f164219   Sinanian   Turkey (Armenian project)   18
fE12439   Fega   Albania   20
f162445   Panopoulos   Greece, Attica, Marathon, Mati   20
fN74713   Tchekidjian   Turkey (Armenian project)   20
f182296   Burckhalter   Switzerland   20
f84950   Ciulla   Italy   21
fN76689   Khalil   Egypt   21
f83616   zzzUnkName   zzzUnkOrigin   21
fE11319   Malagodi   Italy, Emilia-Romagna, Ferrara, Cento   23


This is a different way to look for "WAMHish" R-L23xL51 folks.  These all have 393=13 390=24 385=11,14

f205749   Al-Jeloo   Iraq (Assyrian project)   13   24   14   11   11   14   12   12   12   14   13   16
f177152   Burkholder   Switzerland   13   24   15   10   11   14   12   12   12   13   14   15
f213562   David   Iraq (Assyrian project)   13   24   14   10   11   14   12   12   12   14   13   16
fN74713   Tchekidjian   Turkey (Armenian project)   13   24   14   10   11   14   12   12   13   14   13   16
fN76689   Khalil   Egypt   13   24   14   10   11   14   12   12   13   13   13   19
fE11319   Malagodi   Italy, Emilia-Romagna, Ferrara, Cento   13   24   13   10   11   14   13   12   12   13   13   16
f77594   Constantini   Greece (Jewish project)   13   24   14   10   11   14   12   12   12   14   13   16
f168028   Turzó   Hungary, Hajdú-Bihar Co., Szentpéterszeg   13   24   14   11   11   14   13   12   12   13   13   15
f73539   Bacchus   Iran (Assyrian project)   13   24   14   10   11   14   12   12   12   14   13   16
f61835   Hurmis   Turkey (Assyrian project)   13   24   14   10   11   14   12   12   12   14   13   16
f205003   Khoshabow   Iran (Assyrian project)   13   24   14   10   11   14   12   12   12   14   13   16
f83734   Oshana   Iran (Assyrian project)   13   24   14   10   11   14   12   12   12   14   13   16
f60631   Paul   Iran (Assyrian project)   13   24   14   10   11   14   12   12   11   14   13   16
fN93831   Solomon   Iran (Assyrian project)   13   24   14   10   11   14   12   12   12   14   13   16
[/size]

IMO European R1b may be from a Danubian L23 population that probably expanded there from the Middle East. Around the time of the IE invasions, this population was pushed west, one branch going west from the Alps (P312) and one going north (U106).
Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2103


« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2012, 05:24:43 AM »

Dear Mkk, whoever you are. What you say is the theory I have always fought, that R-L23 has come to Western Europe from East (but from where? There are many theories: 1) from South Russia, 2) from Middle East (Palestine or nearby), 3) from Gedrosia etc.). We all know that of R-L23 is plenty the Middle East, but I have said many times that they are above all Armenians (Armenia, Turkey, North Iran) and we should know where Armenians come from. They are Indo-European speaking and I think they came from the Balkans, then we should know the origin of the Balkan R-L23. But we should answer to the question from which R1b1* that R-L23 was born, and I think having demonstrated ad abundantiam that the Eastern R1b1, with YCAII=21-23 or 23-23 cannot be the ancestor of our R-L23 with its modal YCAII=19-23. Of course we could think to a RecLOH of 23-23 from 19-23 (or even 18-23), but why the East has no haplotype of R1b1 with 19-23 or nearby? Because I think it is another R1b1, contemporaneous to that which lived in Western Europe, and which has had a different history.

Our R-L51 is born from a Western R1b1 and not from an Eastern one. All the maps on the distribution of R-L51, from the first of Argiedude (and me) to the last of Richard Rocca, demonstrate that R-L51 has is highest frequency in Central-North Italy (and for Rrocca also to France), but its frequency drop out Eastward Italy. We have a few samples from elsewhere, like we have had recently some R-M420 in Iran, but clearly those R-M420 from the Russian plane, but its core is Europe, till the Isles.

This haplotype of Attuoni could be the witness of the first R-L51 born in the Ligurian zone, but could be also the witness of those R-L51 which expanded to North (Germany) and returned to Italy (and expanded to the Isles) during the Völkerwanderungen. And this is what I’ll be able to understand with the next tests.

Mkk, whichever you are, Dienekes Pontikos or a female as you say to be, you have lost. Against me you have lost, and you aren’t the only one.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2103


« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2012, 06:00:22 AM »

I have read a pathetic diatribe between Dienekes Pontikos and Anatole Klyosov on Rootsweb. If Dienekes doesn’t believe in the STRs, let him them to those who know them!

You, Mkk, have done a great pot pourri of haplotypes, putting Malagodi amongst the R-L51 (he did the test because I said to him to test L51!) and amongst the R-L23 (don’t believe to whom who understands not more than you of STRs). And there is also Turző, who is probably a R-L51 he too. Amongst the R-L23 you have put L277, L584, Albanian (or Balkan) cluster, etc.

When you want to do a “minestrone” (hotchpotch) go to the supermarket and not to confront with me.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Wayne Kauffman
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 37


« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2012, 06:33:56 AM »

185134  Kaufmann is most likely following the wrong family line back to Switzerland. It is best to assume this line is not Swiss.

Any mention of the Burkholder members should reflect the that they are part of the L277+ cluster which does have a STR motif which separates them from other L23*.  Don't sully the waters with invalid 12 STR motif designations.
Logged

U106-L48
A_Wode
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 100


« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2012, 10:36:59 AM »

As far as I know the Middle/Near Eastern matches to date have been from the aformentioned Yemenite, and more recently among a Palestinian if you check the R1b project.
Logged
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.105 seconds with 17 queries.