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razyn
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« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2012, 06:44:45 PM »

Look at my map. It is based on many academic studies. Myres found P312* to be 1.7% in Romania. Even if it is all DF27 (unlikely), the DF27 presence in Romania can be deduced as insignificant. Now repeat the scenario for every single country east of the Alps, from the Baltic down to the Balkans and you will find the same thing.

OK, I looked at it, it's pretty.  It's also about two things, R-P312* frequency (not origin), and the spread of putatively Portuguese tableware (or really, a funerary cult or something, that involved drinking from that).  I doubt that Bell Beakers were only ever touched by DF27 lips...  so, I'm not persuaded by the elegance of the overlap of these two factoids that they prove much about the origin of DF27, which is almost certainly related in some way, but is in fact something else.

The academic studies, on which the DNA part of the picture is based, used mostly ten to fifteen marker testing.  I think more can be learned, and already has been learned, from better testing.  (About which you are one of the gurus, so I feel silly mentioning it in something that purports to be addressed to you.)  You forbade me to argue from FTDNA project data, nice move btw, so I won't.  But I do let it influence my opinion; and my opinion remains what it was earlier this morning.

If it swings around more in line with yours, and that may happen, it's likely to be because of timeline discrepancies that Mike, Marko, Ken and a few others may be able to squeeze out of the interclade variances in those same, off-limits FTDNA projects.  (I won't keep arguing in favor of the 2600 BC spread of some mutation that didn't occur until 2100 BC, or however that works out.)  But the same timeline discrepancies are even harder on all that ice age, paleo European stuff that got the Iberian and Italian cheerleaders jumping up and down, eight or ten years ago.

For a birthday present earlier in the week I gave myself Celtic from the West.  It hasn't yet arrived.  I read these forums enough to know already what's wrong with that book; so maybe I'll just look at the pictures or something, while waiting for the aDNA (and Jean's book).
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 06:45:30 PM by razyn » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2012, 06:56:11 PM »

I believe you have a harder time than I do in separating the 1000 Genomes project from reality.  It was a great project, and I'm the beneficiary of many of the SNP discoveries made through it, by you and a few others.  But its sample was at least as skewed as FTDNA projects, though not in exactly the same way; and much of that appearance of Iberia-centrism is a function of the said sample skewing. I'd like to see more Romanian, Afghan, Siberian, Algonquian, etc. genomes among the 1000, 2000, or whatever it takes to balance the sample.  Others would also like to see that sort of thing, I'm not just making this up to argue with you about DF27 origins.  I think L. Mayka, for example, mentions it once or twice a week (on other forums).  He has a Polish project... coincidence?

I know the limitations of the 1000 Genomes Project data quite well. My assumptions are all based on taking a whole bunch of different data from different sources. However, the 1000 Genomes data is not what causes Iberia-centrism for DF27. It is the fact that east of France, P312* drops off a cliff and therefore you cannot fabricate frequency out of thin air. You think because the 1000 Genomes Project did not take samples from Romania it might be a hot bed for DF27? Look at my map. It is based on many academic studies. Myres found P312* to be 1.7% in Romania. Even if it is all DF27 (unlikely), the DF27 presence in Romania can be deduced as insignificant. Now repeat the scenario for every single country east of the Alps, from the Baltic down to the Balkans and you will find the same thing.

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Well, maybe probably -- if there was such a thing, if Bell Beaker is associated with DF27, if it was linguistically proto-Italo-Celtic, and if it happened as early as you think.  I'm not sure anybody really knows, yet.  Certainly, there are some strong opinions.  Several have been posted while I'm writing this.

DF27 can be associated with Bell Beaker, but not all Bell Beaker. I don't think DF27 had anything to do with the Begleitkeramik Bell Beaker movements of Central Europe.

Quote
About the metallurgy thing, I don't disagree about the general direction of movement of the Bronze Age craft specialties.  But the guys looking for ores, and opening trade routes to their sources, preceded most of that -- and if they were DF27, IMO came from someplace more like the Ukraine, and less like the Tyrol -- and not very likely SE France. 

I didn't even say all the pre-Bell Beaker southern French metallurgists were DF27+. They were probably P312+ when they branched off into DF27 and L21 somewhere in southern France.

I know it is your desire to drum up interest in DF27 which I think is great, but just so I'm not wasting my time here, am I arguing against your opinions (or "wants")  for a DF27 origin? It doesn't seem like you are providing even circumstantial evidence for your Baltic/Ukraine theory.

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When Jean Manco's book comes out, it will settle this question -- probably by saying that we need to wait for the aDNA.  Do you think those Kromsdorf Bell Beaker guys were DF27?  I think I read M269, but it's slipped my mind.  Something inadequately precise, anyway.

The Kromsdorf BB samples were M269+ but below that all we know is that they were U106-. I would guess they are more likely to be U152 than DF27, but either is possible. Even true P312* is in play there.

I would tend to agree that DF27 happened either in Iberia or on the journey into Iberia and had a founder effect there.  We are still talking about a few men and immediately downsteam of P312 there were indeed only 3? men who created most of the lineages that survive.  If they entered their various areas in the beaker period and  the variance interclades for them are correct in homing in on c. 2500BC or so , these immediate downstream from P312 lineages were still extremely young at the time of arrival.  The implication of the variance dating for P312 and immediate downstream clades and tying this to the beaker network is that their numbers were absolutely tiny at the time.  I actually think this may be the secret of the extremely patterned state of P312  clades.  Such tiny numbers of initial settlers would lead to founder effects.  I really think there is no logical way to envisage the rapid fire L11-P312-L27/U152/L21 thing as anything other than a single dynasty of specialists who were welcomed with open arms by the locals across Europe initially.  There would have been so few of them c. 2500BC or so that a more militaristic scenario is absurd.  I suspect they really were a bunch of specialist clans who really were settling in small extended clan groups of maybe 2nd or 3rd cousins at most an numbering in the dozens at each location.  I suspect every tribe wanted their beaker family settling among them as they controlled the prestige goods (primarily metal).  As for DF27, I suspect that some clan of 2nd cousins descended from grandad MR P312 set off into Iberia at about the same time there 3rd or 4th cousins (MR L21 and his brothers and cousins) were being welcomed into the north Atlantic area.  I think the key to the very strong geographical patterning of P312 clades is the tiny groups initially involved.   They seem to have literally been a buch of great grandsons or so experiencing fission as they moved and found nice niches in which to grow their own families.  
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2012, 08:14:08 PM »

I am well aware pots are not people.  However, it may be popular on these forums to accept the idea of an intrusive pre-beaker copper age culture in Iberia but this is not generally accepted in the archaeological world.  Archaeologists for generations have looked at the fascinating pre-beaker copper age culture of Iberia and have openly debatede the issue of whether the cultures came from the east and given it great scrutiny but they concluded that there is no evidence of an eastern origin for those cultures.  If you can show me a paper by an archaeologist in the last 25 years or so that EXPLICITELY concludes the pre-Iberian copper age cultures arrived from the east I would be very surprised (although very interested).  I actually am semi-persuaded of something along these lines reaching Italy/Alps etc from the east in pre-beaker times but the idea of an early pre-beaker copper age settlement in Iberia coming from the east is one of those ideas that was raised a long time ago, debated and rejected by archaeologists.  What is the evidence of migration to Iberia from the east in the pre-beaker copper age?  I certainly wouldnt take the Harrison and Heyd Yamnaya influences map as an indicator of migration.  That would set the bar for evidence of migrations so low that the bar would have to be subject to archaelogical excavation!     

You are right Alan, a Copper Age migration into Iberia is something archaeologists do not agree on. However, this is where genetics can clear things up. aDNA does not lie, and so far there is a clear need to explain what looks like a substantial Y-DNA replacement in the Late Neolithic.

Prestige burials in flex position with copper daggers, drinking vessels and arrows are found in Italy c3600 BC and SE France c3500 BC. You think the Bell Beaker burials that appear c2900 BC in Iberia just conveniently happened to incorporate funerary rituals that were first seen in the central Mediterranean and the Balkans before it? I don't.

As for Harrison and Heyd's Yamnaya map, I take zero stock in it. In fact, it is a direct replica of one of Gimbutas' maps published decades ago. The huge flaw in H&H's logic is that one of the Italian Copper Age cultures they mention, Remedello, was contemporary with Yamnaya. To boot, pit grave prestige burials (aka 'Big Men') with all of the 'benefits' of the Yamnaya culture show up in Rinaldone Culture graves about 800 years before the 2900 BC Yamnaya migration. The Yamnaya migrations seem to have stopped in the Carpathian basin, which is where R1a starts to fall off considerably.
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rms2
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« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2012, 08:09:44 AM »

Somehow this thread got locked up last evening. I don't know how; I didn't lock it.

Before I lock down a thread, I give a warning or two or three, and then I announce that it's being locked down and give a reason. Terry does the same.

I don't know what happened with this thread, because I can't find anything wrong with the discussion.

Sorry for the problem (whatever caused it).

Carry on!
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2012, 08:24:23 AM »

Prestige burials in flex position with copper daggers, drinking vessels and arrows are found in Italy c3600 BC and SE France c3500 BC. You think the Bell Beaker burials that appear c2900 BC in Iberia just conveniently happened to incorporate funerary rituals that were first seen in the central Mediterranean and the Balkans before it? I don't.

As for Harrison and Heyd's Yamnaya map, I take zero stock in it. In fact, it is a direct replica of one of Gimbutas' maps published decades ago. The huge flaw in H&H's logic is that one of the Italian Copper Age cultures they mention, Remedello, was contemporary with Yamnaya. To boot, pit grave prestige burials (aka 'Big Men') with all of the 'benefits' of the Yamnaya culture show up in Rinaldone Culture graves about 800 years before the 2900 BC Yamnaya migration. The Yamnaya migrations seem to have stopped in the Carpathian basin, which is where R1a starts to fall off considerably.

Read here and you'll understand.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2012, 11:37:59 AM »

I am well aware pots are not people.  However, it may be popular on these forums to accept the idea of an intrusive pre-beaker copper age culture in Iberia but this is not generally accepted in the archaeological world.  Archaeologists for generations have looked at the fascinating pre-beaker copper age culture of Iberia and have openly debatede the issue of whether the cultures came from the east and given it great scrutiny but they concluded that there is no evidence of an eastern origin for those cultures.  If you can show me a paper by an archaeologist in the last 25 years or so that EXPLICITELY concludes the pre-Iberian copper age cultures arrived from the east I would be very surprised (although very interested).  I actually am semi-persuaded of something along these lines reaching Italy/Alps etc from the east in pre-beaker times but the idea of an early pre-beaker copper age settlement in Iberia coming from the east is one of those ideas that was raised a long time ago, debated and rejected by archaeologists.  What is the evidence of migration to Iberia from the east in the pre-beaker copper age?  I certainly wouldnt take the Harrison and Heyd Yamnaya influences map as an indicator of migration.  That would set the bar for evidence of migrations so low that the bar would have to be subject to archaelogical excavation!     

You are right Alan, a Copper Age migration into Iberia is something archaeologists do not agree on. However, this is where genetics can clear things up. aDNA does not lie, and so far there is a clear need to explain what looks like a substantial Y-DNA replacement in the Late Neolithic.

Prestige burials in flex position with copper daggers, drinking vessels and arrows are found in Italy c3600 BC and SE France c3500 BC. You think the Bell Beaker burials that appear c2900 BC in Iberia just conveniently happened to incorporate funerary rituals that were first seen in the central Mediterranean and the Balkans before it? I don't.

As for Harrison and Heyd's Yamnaya map, I take zero stock in it. In fact, it is a direct replica of one of Gimbutas' maps published decades ago. The huge flaw in H&H's logic is that one of the Italian Copper Age cultures they mention, Remedello, was contemporary with Yamnaya. To boot, pit grave prestige burials (aka 'Big Men') with all of the 'benefits' of the Yamnaya culture show up in Rinaldone Culture graves about 800 years before the 2900 BC Yamnaya migration. The Yamnaya migrations seem to have stopped in the Carpathian basin, which is where R1a starts to fall off considerably.

I am interested in the behavour traits of those cultures but in Iberia the pre-beaker people continued to use collective tombs.  I dont see any huge reason to see intrusive easterners in Iberia in pre-beaker times.  Like I said, the revival of the idea of the Iberian pre-beaker cultures as being eastern is really just a genealogy internet phenomenon.  I just cant think of any archaeologist who has argued this explicetly in recent times and in the last round of consideration of an external origin it wasnt considered likely.  On the other hand you do have the metalworking itself and attempting to link it with the western Alps pre-beaker copper age groups you mention may not be as futile as the old ideas of seeing the Iberian cultures coming directly from the east Med.

However, to me this is just details anyway.  I dont see a huge difference if P312 only entered the beaker culture in west-central Europe and followed the beakers network back to Iberia from say southern France.  Its not a big difference. Both models have a missing link in terms of strong evidence.  Its just a little easier to see an R1b-beaker combo arising from early beaker elements from Iberia combining/hybriding with R1b central European elements and forming the unique new full package beaker culture with its eastern and western element in central Europe.  That is a model that has been hypothesis in various forms for a century and was still being reiterated in very recent books.  Crucial parts of what we think are typical beaker cultural practices did not enter the beaker culture until it reached central Europe including the classic burial mode, wrist guards and I understand too the distinct physical type.  These things did arrive in Iberia later in the beaker phase in what you could call a reflux following the beaker network.  Of course nothing is certain but that would be more in line with the mainstream ideas than seeing a pre-copper age leap from the east (which would be required for P312 to arrivee there). So, I am making a distinction between the oreigin of beaker pots and people.  However, the origin of even the pots is still not a done deal.  The ability of radiocarbon dating in a problem area of the calibration curve to pinpoint origin has been raised again recently as has the skewing effect that the (admittedly necessary) selection of only short life material like bones, hazelnuts etc causes.         
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2012, 12:04:22 AM »

We've built up a fair size group of confirmed DF27 haplotypes. I've tried to match SNP tested people with varieties that look like pretty good fits. For instance, it appears consistent that North-South cluster people are Z209+ and probably Z220+. That being said, the following numbers include all the "predicted" DF27 haplotypes which would be those P312+ U152- L21- but DF27 untested folks who fit into a known DF27 variety.

I have some reservations about displaying the results as they are not re-sampled in any geographically representative way, they are too short (37 rather than 67 STR hts), and some people think STRs $&!#k. If you want to argue about those things, let's do that over in the STR Wars thread so as not to bog this one down. I'm not asserting any new hypothesis or anything, but here are the numbers.

I show relative variances of different groups of DF27 by both mixed speed 24 STR marker sets (but nothing crazy like CDY or 464) and by reported linear 16 STR marker sets. I like the mixed speed marker sets because R1b subclades seem to be more properly reflected visa-vi each other when using mixed speed markers than the slower or "linear" ones.

Here are the major subclades of DF27. R1b-DF21 is "all" subclades, not asterisk folks.

24 Mixed Speed STRs
R1b-DF27____________:  Var=1.06  (N=685)
R1b-Z196____________:  Var=1.05  (N=579)      
R1b-Z209____________:  Var=0.99  (N=198) << think N-S cluster
R1b-L176.2__________:  Var=0.93  (N=355)
R1b-L165____________:  Var=0.87  (N=88)   
R1b-DF17____________:  Var=0.81  (N=23)
R1b-SRY2627_________:  Var=0.80  (N=226)   

   
16 Linear STRs
R1b-Z196____________:  Var=1.12  (N=579)   
R1b-DF27____________:  Var=1.08  (N=685)   
R1b-Z209____________:  Var=0.98  (N=198)
R1b-L176.2__________:  Var=1.00  (N=355)
R1b-L165____________:  Var=0.97  (N=88)      
R1b-SRY2627_________:  Var=0.77  (N=226)   
R1b-DF17____________:  Var=0.69  (N=23)


In the linear marker comparison you can see that Z196 comes out as more diverse than DF27 and that really shouldn't be as DF27 is older by reason of the phylogeny. Again, I seem to have less anomalies in the mixed speed results when I do this kind of thing.

The above numbers are appropriate in that we know they are of related groups of people, each group with its own MRCA. The peer subclades are not mixed.  Below I will show variance results for geographies which means there will be different mixes of the various subclades of DF27 by geography. Some geographies may be pooling points or cross-roads and therefore look like an origin when it isn't. The information must be viewed in context of other information.

All DF27 by geography. "West Cont Eur" is France, Germany, Benelux and everything west of Poland/Czech Republic/Slovakia and north or west of the Italian Peninsula. "East Cent Eur" is everyhing east or east and southeast of West Cont Eur. The Italian Peninsula (only) is included in "East Cent Eur".  Denmark is included in "Nordic".

24 Mixed Speed STRs
East Cent Eur_______:  Var=1.32  (N=22)
Iberia______________:  Var=1.12  (N=91)   
West Cont Eur_______:  Var=1.02  (N=114)   
Isles_______________:  Var=0.96  (N=286)   
Nordic______________:  Var=0.95  (N=10)   


16 Linear STRs
East Cent Eur_______:  Var=1.51  (N=22)
Iberia______________:  Var=1.24  (N=91)      
Isles_______________:  Var=1.02  (N=286)
West Cont Eur_______:  Var=0.97  (N=114)
Nordic______________:  Var=0.82  (N=10)


The East Cent Eur and Nordic DF27 is fairly sparse so I wouldn't go to town with those results.  I didn't look at France individually (SE France would be interesting) but Iberia seems to be more diverse than France/Germany.

I wouldn't rewrite world history because this data.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 12:11:43 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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Jean M
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« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2012, 07:24:34 AM »

... it may be popular on these forums to accept the idea of an intrusive pre-beaker copper age culture in Iberia but this is not generally accepted in the archaeological world.  Archaeologists for generations have looked at the fascinating pre-beaker copper age culture of Iberia and have openly debated the issue of whether the cultures came from the east and given it great scrutiny but they concluded that there is no evidence of an eastern origin for those cultures.      

The issue debated has been whether Los Millares, Zambujal and copper-working were the result of people arriving from the Near East. The conclusion has been that they were not. What is called the "orientalising" influence i.e. Phoenician came later. There is no direct connection between the Near East and the walled settlements of Los Millares, Zambujal etc. The mere fact that they have walls and there were walled towns in the Near East naturally enough triggered the idea of arrivals from the Near East, but these Iberian settlements are not really urban. There are no points of similarity.

So there was a long phase of claiming that copper-working was invented independently in Iberia. That was as dubious as all other anti-migrationist claims of independent origins for copper-working in various other places, as Ben Roberts of the British Museum has explained in article after article , which are in the Mini-Library under Archaeology > Copper-Bronze Age > Metallurgy.

This particular prop to anti-migrationism has been vigorously kicked away. I see that I really should stress this point more in my text, as it seems not to be getting through (not just to you.)

Let me stress once more that copper-working arrived in Iberia with copper workers NOT, repeat NOT from the Near East, but from the Carpathian Basin via the Balkans and north Italy. The Near East has not, repeat NOT returned to the debate on Copper Age Iberia.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 08:50:41 AM by Jean M » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2012, 09:32:45 AM »

..... For instance, it appears consistent that North-South cluster people are Z209+ and probably Z220+. ....

The East Cent Eur and Nordic DF27 is fairly sparse so I wouldn't go to town with those results.  ...

I wouldn't rewrite world history because this data.

East and Central Europe is the area of highest variance. I don't have a lot of data from there, though. Since there are only 22 folks in that group I thought I'd try to see what is driving the variance up. It's Z209+.  Think North-South Cluster when you see Z209+. 10 of the 22 DF27 in this area east of Germany/Austria/North Italy are Z209 types.


f163820   Both   Hungary
f61362   Chernik   Ukraine, Khmelnytskyi Oblast, Krasilov (Jewish project)
f1401   Chernik   Ukraine, Khmelnytskyi Oblast, Krasilov (Jewish project)
f136884   Danders   Prussia/Poland (German)
f101010   Griego   Greece
f155312   Palkó    Hungary
f133936   Wyrwas   Poland, Greater Poland Voivodeship, Krotoszyn Co. Kobierno, Dabrowa
f97920   Zencker   Czech Republic, Bohemia, Waltersdorf
f60159   Richert   Poland, Pomeranian Voivodeship, Gdańsk, Oliwa
f44479   Richert   Poland, Lublin Voivodeship, Stężyca


Even though  there are two pairs of relatives, variance is still high.

I've mentioned this before but we need to come to grips migrations eastward as some of these folks may be a part of historical period Jewish migrations or German migrations from Germany.

Why is their diversity high? It's not like the phenomenon I see in Spain where L21 is a minority group. There L21 seems to be dominated by just a couple of varieties (clusters.)  I don't see this for DF27 or P312 in general in Eastern Europe. Diversity is high there even though it is a minority. What is causing this?
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« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2012, 11:42:43 AM »

Just to remind everyone of Mike's previous variance run for SRY2627..

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.94 [Mixed 49]  (N=15)   
SRY2627 France______:  Var=1.06 [Linear 36]  (N=15)   

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.86 [Mixed 49]  (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.77 [Linear 36]  (N=9)   

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.84 [Mixed 49]  (N=63)   
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.80 [Linear 36]  (N=63)   

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.80 [Mixed 49]  (N=17)   
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.75 [Linear 36]  (N=17)   

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« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2012, 12:19:05 PM »

Just to remind everyone of Mike's previous variance run for SRY2627..

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.94 [Mixed 49]  (N=15)  
SRY2627 France______:  Var=1.06 [Linear 36]  (N=15)  

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.86 [Mixed 49]  (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.77 [Linear 36]  (N=9)  

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.84 [Mixed 49]  (N=63)  
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.80 [Linear 36]  (N=63)  

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.80 [Mixed 49]  (N=17)  
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.75 [Linear 36]  (N=17)    

I'll redo SRY2627, but just keep in mind that other than the British Isles, these are not large sample sizes. That's why I backed down to 37 STR haplotypes on the scenarios I just ran, to keep the counts above 20.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 12:19:43 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2012, 07:49:34 PM »

Just to remind everyone of Mike's previous variance run for SRY2627..

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.94 [Mixed 49]  (N=15)   
SRY2627 France______:  Var=1.06 [Linear 36]  (N=15)   

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.86 [Mixed 49]  (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.77 [Linear 36]  (N=9)   

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.84 [Mixed 49]  (N=63)   
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.80 [Linear 36]  (N=63)   

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.80 [Mixed 49]  (N=17)   
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.75 [Linear 36]  (N=17)   



Somebody kick-start my failing memory. The variance rates for France were found to be higher in southern France? By southern France I mean what is typically classified as the land of Occitania.

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« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2012, 09:02:21 PM »

Looks like I missed all the fun the past few years.  Rolling the dice on DF27 first, based on dys 534=16 and not much else.  Nice work y'all, but you're going to bankrupt me!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 09:02:46 PM by RickA » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2012, 09:09:27 PM »

Looks like I missed all the fun the past few years.  Rolling the dice on DF27 first, based on dys 534=16 and not much else.  Nice work y'all, but you're going to bankrupt me!

Not before me !!
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Y-DNA R-DF49*
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rms2
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« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2012, 09:15:43 PM »

Looks like I missed all the fun the past few years.  Rolling the dice on DF27 first, based on dys 534=16 and not much else.  Nice work y'all, but you're going to bankrupt me!

Look what the cat dragged in!

Glad to see you here.

Hope you come up DF27+.
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Jdean
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« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2012, 09:18:32 PM »

Looks like I missed all the fun the past few years.  Rolling the dice on DF27 first, based on dys 534=16 and not much else.  Nice work y'all, but you're going to bankrupt me!

Look what the cat dragged in!

Glad to see you here.

Hope you come up DF27+.

P312** pretty cool too just a bit more pricy :)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 09:19:45 PM by Jdean » Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
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Arch Y.
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« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2012, 11:56:07 PM »

..... For instance, it appears consistent that North-South cluster people are Z209+ and probably Z220+. ....

The East Cent Eur and Nordic DF27 is fairly sparse so I wouldn't go to town with those results.  ...

I wouldn't rewrite world history because this data.

East and Central Europe is the area of highest variance. I don't have a lot of data from there, though. Since there are only 22 folks in that group I thought I'd try to see what is driving the variance up. It's Z209+.  Think North-South Cluster when you see Z209+. 10 of the 22 DF27 in this area east of Germany/Austria/North Italy are Z209 types.


f163820   Both   Hungary
f61362   Chernik   Ukraine, Khmelnytskyi Oblast, Krasilov (Jewish project)
f1401   Chernik   Ukraine, Khmelnytskyi Oblast, Krasilov (Jewish project)
f136884   Danders   Prussia/Poland (German)
f101010   Griego   Greece
f155312   Palkó    Hungary
f133936   Wyrwas   Poland, Greater Poland Voivodeship, Krotoszyn Co. Kobierno, Dabrowa
f97920   Zencker   Czech Republic, Bohemia, Waltersdorf
f60159   Richert   Poland, Pomeranian Voivodeship, Gdańsk, Oliwa
f44479   Richert   Poland, Lublin Voivodeship, Stężyca


Even though  there are two pairs of relatives, variance is still high.

I've mentioned this before but we need to come to grips migrations eastward as some of these folks may be a part of historical period Jewish migrations or German migrations from Germany.

Why is their diversity high? It's not like the phenomenon I see in Spain where L21 is a minority group. There L21 seems to be dominated by just a couple of varieties (clusters.)  I don't see this for DF27 or P312 in general in Eastern Europe. Diversity is high there even though it is a minority. What is causing this?


I wonder what kind of impact with such events as World War II where at least 700,000 Germans were displaced from their homes in 1945-6 could cause with modern genetics--let alone the many millenia of warfare before our time.

Arch
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RickA
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« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2012, 06:44:43 AM »

Looks like I missed all the fun the past few years.  Rolling the dice on DF27 first, based on dys 534=16 and not much else.  Nice work y'all, but you're going to bankrupt me!

Look what the cat dragged in!

Glad to see you here.

Hope you come up DF27+.
lol. Thanks Rich. Ordered a few weeks ago so hope to know soon. Any result will be fine. I haven't been back long enough to form any ideas about the new clades. The best part is it seems S116/P312 is carved up so finely now that any result would be meaningful. Even the dreaded * now seems a small group.


P312** pretty cool too just a bit more pricy :)
Ugh. Yes.  All paths look pricy, but that one looks long and painful!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 06:48:52 AM by RickA » Logged

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Jdean
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« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2012, 07:37:15 AM »

Ugh. Yes.  All paths look pricy, but that one looks long and painful!

Try L21** for size :)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 07:39:48 AM by Jdean » Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
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Kit No. 117897
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rms2
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« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2012, 08:38:39 AM »

Looks like I missed all the fun the past few years.  Rolling the dice on DF27 first, based on dys 534=16 and not much else.  Nice work y'all, but you're going to bankrupt me!

Look what the cat dragged in!

Glad to see you here.

Hope you come up DF27+.
lol. Thanks Rich. Ordered a few weeks ago so hope to know soon. Any result will be fine. I haven't been back long enough to form any ideas about the new clades. The best part is it seems S116/P312 is carved up so finely now that any result would be meaningful. Even the dreaded * now seems a small group.


P312** pretty cool too just a bit more pricy :)
Ugh. Yes.  All paths look pricy, but that one looks long and painful!

I don't run the R-P312 and Subclades Project anymore, and I am about to drop out of it altogether, so neither of us "Founding Fathers" will be involved in running the project we created back in 2008.
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rms2
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« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2012, 08:50:14 AM »

Looks like I missed all the fun the past few years.  Rolling the dice on DF27 first, based on dys 534=16 and not much else.  Nice work y'all, but you're going to bankrupt me!

Look what the cat dragged in!

Glad to see you here.

Hope you come up DF27+.
lol. Thanks Rich. Ordered a few weeks ago so hope to know soon. Any result will be fine. I haven't been back long enough to form any ideas about the new clades. The best part is it seems S116/P312 is carved up so finely now that any result would be meaningful. Even the dreaded * now seems a small group.


P312** pretty cool too just a bit more pricy :)
Ugh. Yes.  All paths look pricy, but that one looks long and painful!

I don't run the R-P312 and Subclades Project anymore, and I am about to drop out of it altogether, so neither of us "Founding Fathers" will be involved in running the project we created back in 2008.

I just dropped out of the R-P312 and Subclades Project as a co-admin (I turned over Grand Poobah duties to Henry Zenker a few weeks ago). On top of that, I just quit that project altogether, and I dropped out of the old R1b Project.

I just decided to pare down the number of projects to which I belong a bit. Those two seem kind of obsolete for L21 guys now. That's not to say they aren't useful for other purposes.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 08:51:04 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2012, 09:33:41 AM »

... Ugh. Yes.  All paths look pricy, but that one looks long and painful!

The good news is we have a lot of possibilities but it is true the path to your terminal SNP may be long.

Do you have 67 markers tested? What kit #? 

Some people are lucky enough to be in (off-modal) STR signature varieties that have already done extensive testing. They can skip down the layers L21 descendancy tree to target a potential terminal SNP.... and maybe get lucky.
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RickA
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« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2012, 06:59:44 PM »

... Ugh. Yes.  All paths look pricy, but that one looks long and painful!

The good news is we have a lot of possibilities but it is true the path to your terminal SNP may be long.

Do you have 67 markers tested? What kit #? 

Some people are lucky enough to be in (off-modal) STR signature varieties that have already done extensive testing. They can skip down the layers L21 descendancy tree to target a potential terminal SNP.... and maybe get lucky.

I've got 67, aye.  Didn't really match any off-modal patters of the old varieties, but lots of new things to try.  I've got 16 at DYS 534, which led me to choose DF27 for my first test.  My closest 2 matches at 67 are 8 and 9 off. One is L21 and one S28, so no help there.  Kit is 6521, and ysearch is GTCD2.  Thanks Mike. Cheers, Rick 
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RickA
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« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2012, 07:02:53 PM »

Looks like I missed all the fun the past few years.  Rolling the dice on DF27 first, based on dys 534=16 and not much else.  Nice work y'all, but you're going to bankrupt me!

Look what the cat dragged in!

Glad to see you here.

Hope you come up DF27+.
lol. Thanks Rich. Ordered a few weeks ago so hope to know soon. Any result will be fine. I haven't been back long enough to form any ideas about the new clades. The best part is it seems S116/P312 is carved up so finely now that any result would be meaningful. Even the dreaded * now seems a small group.


P312** pretty cool too just a bit more pricy :)
Ugh. Yes.  All paths look pricy, but that one looks long and painful!

I don't run the R-P312 and Subclades Project anymore, and I am about to drop out of it altogether, so neither of us "Founding Fathers" will be involved in running the project we created back in 2008.

Well, with all the new subclade developments, there'a  probably more to be gained at lower levels anyway.  Lots of news in L21 I see.  It didn't have any subclades last time I payed attention.
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« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2012, 08:41:51 PM »

Just to remind everyone of Mike's previous variance run for SRY2627..

SRY2627 France______:  Var=0.94 [Mixed 49]  (N=15)   
SRY2627 France______:  Var=1.06 [Linear 36]  (N=15)   

SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.86 [Mixed 49]  (N=9)
SRY2627 Germany/Pol_:  Var=0.77 [Linear 36]  (N=9)   

SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.84 [Mixed 49]  (N=63)   
SRY2627 Isles_______:  Var=0.80 [Linear 36]  (N=63)   

SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.80 [Mixed 49]  (N=17)   
SRY2627 Iberia______:  Var=0.75 [Linear 36]  (N=17)   



Somebody kick-start my failing memory. The variance rates for France were found to be higher in southern France? By southern France I mean what is typically classified as the land of Occitania.

Arch

Not sure, but I don't think Mike gets that specific with it. Just a general read out for France as a whole. Though I wouldn't be surprised if it was in this region. Hell, I'm not surprised by any of this stuff any more. One day the variance read outs say one thing and then they're flip flopped the next day.

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