World Families Forums - R1b-U106/S21 - keeping the phylogenetic tree updated

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 31, 2014, 10:36:30 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  R1b-U106/S21 - keeping the phylogenetic tree updated
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: R1b-U106/S21 - keeping the phylogenetic tree updated  (Read 2946 times)
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« on: July 31, 2012, 04:50:21 PM »

You didn't think I'd forget U106, did you?  A guy named Clinton P does a nice job of keeping up on the U106 tree so I try to stay up with him.

ISOGG is way ahead of FTDNA, which is expected to some extent, on recognizing SNPs that can be placed on the Y DNA phylogenetic tree.
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Here is Thomas Krahn's draft version of the tree for U106.
http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=78748442

Below is a representation of what I use in the R-U106All Haplotype spreadsheet. Do I have it right?  Am I missing SNPs? The below is actually represented in formulas in a spreadsheet so it is important that I get it right to display haplogroup labels correctly. I also try to use the asterisk and double asterisk to help denote immediate downstream SNP results.

U106+  >>> R-U106; * = P107- L6- L217- Z18- Z381-  ** = P107- L6- L217- Z18- Z381- L199- L5-

P107+  >>> R-U106/P107; Terminal

L6+  >>> R-U106/L6; Terminal

L217+  >>> R-U106/L217.1; Terminal

Z18+  >>> R-U106/Z18; * = Z14- L325-  ** = Z14- L325- L653-
Z14+  >>> R-U106/Z18/Z14; * = L257-
L147+  >>> R-U106/Z18/Z14/L147; Terminal
Z372+  >>> R-U106/Z18/Z14/Z372; * = L257-
L257+  >>> R-U106/Z18/Z14/Z372/L257; Terminal
L325+  >>> R-U106/Z18/L325; Terminal
L653+  >>> R-U106/Z18/L653; Terminal

Z381+  >>> R-U106/Z381; * = Z156- Z301-

Z156+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z156; * = Z305-  ** = Z305- L782-
Z305+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z156/Z305; * = L1-  ** = L1-  P89.2- L128-
L1+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z156/Z305/L1; * = L132.1-
L132.1+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z156/Z305/L1/L132.1; Terminal
P89.2+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z156/Z305/P89; Terminal
L128+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z156/Z305/L128; * = L127.2-
L127.2+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z156/Z305/L128/L127.2; Terminal
L782+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z156/L782; Terminal

Z301+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301; * = U198- L48-  ** = U198- L48- L259-
U198+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/U198; * = L129  ** = L129-
L129+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/U198/L129; Terminal

L48+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48; * = L47- Z9-  ** = L47- Z9- L200- L693-
L47+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L47; * = L44-  ** = L44- Z159-
L44+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L47/L44; * = L46-
L46+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L47/L44/L46; * = L164-
L164+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L47/L44/L46/L164; * = L292-
L292+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L47/L44/L46/L164/L292; Terminal
L163+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L47/L44; * = L46-
Z159+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L47/Z159; Terminal
Z9+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9; * = Z2- Z326-
Z2+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2; * = Z7-
Z7+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7; * = Z8-  ** = Z8- L217-
Z8+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8; * = Z11- Z1-  ** = Z11- Z1- M365.4-
Z11+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z11; * = Z12-
Z12+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z11/Z12; * = L148-
L148+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z11/Z12/L148; Terminal
Z1+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z1; * = Z6- Z346-
Z6+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z1/Z6; * = M157.2-  ** = M157.2- L179-
M157.2+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z1/Z6/M157.2; Terminal
L179+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z1/Z6/L179; Terminal
Z346+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z1/Z346; * = Z343-
Z343+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z1/Z346/Z343; Terminal
M365.4+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/M365.4; Terminal
L217.2+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/L217.2; Terminal
Z326+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z326; * = L188-  ** = L188- L696-
L188+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z326/L188; Terminal
L696+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z326/L696; Terminal
L200+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L200; Terminal
L693+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L693; Terminal

L259+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L259; Terminal

L199+  >>> R-U106/L199; Terminal

L5+  >>> R-U106/L5; Terminal

Z10+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z153+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z154+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z155+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z16+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
L189+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z306+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z307+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z327+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z328+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z329+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z330+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z331+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z333+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z334+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z335+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z346+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
L477+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
L493+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z80+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z82+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z83+ >>> Unpositioned under U106


Z381 is the big subclade, for sure. In a way, it supplants U106.  Z18 and U106* may be very important to understand since they are Z381-.

Within Z381, see how Z301 ties U198 and L48? That leaves Z156 as kind of stand-alone too.

I don't know if everyone understand this, but all of this is a hey day for interclade TMRCA analysis, particularly when you add 111 STRs to the mix.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 04:55:18 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
wing_genealogist
Senior Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 81


WWW
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2012, 05:43:20 PM »

Z10 is (so far) equivalent to Z9
Z327-Z337 is (so far) equivalent to Z326
Z80-Z84 are downstream of Z326-Z337.  There was a recent posting (by Greg Magoon) about some SNPs which appear to be between Z326etal and Z80etal

Also L180 is (so far) equivalent to L179 (both have so far only been found in 1 WTY individual)
Z152-Z155 is (so far) equivalent to L259 (a small 3rd subclade of Z301)
Z306 & Z307 are downstream of Z156. I believe it is unknown if those two are at the same level, or if Z304-Z306 are downstream of Z307
Z346 is a subclade of Z343 Z343 is a subclade of Z346.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 06:02:20 PM by wing_genealogist » Logged

Y-DNA - R1b M157.2 (a private/family subclade of Z6/Z352) 111 markers tested

mt-DNA - J1c2g with the following private mutations: 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C C9974T C16256T (FMS tested and submitted to GenBank)

Autosomal - shows as a typical English ancestry. Tested with 23andMe, FTDNA
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2012, 05:51:16 PM »

Z10 is (so far) equivalent to Z9
Z327-Z337 is (so far) equivalent to Z326
Z80-Z84 are downstream of Z326-Z337.  There was a recent posting (by Greg Magoon) about some SNPs which appear to be between Z326etal and Z80etal

Also L180 is (so far) equivalent to L179 (both have so far only been found in 1 WTY individual)
Z152-Z155 is (so far) equivalent to L259 (a small 3rd subclade of Z301)
Z306 & Z307 are downstream of Z156. I believe it is unknown if those two are at the same level, or if Z304-Z306 are downstream of Z307
Z346 is a subclade of Z343

Are all of these available now for testing? I'll add anything that you think people are testing for.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
wing_genealogist
Senior Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 81


WWW
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2012, 05:56:50 PM »

Z10, Z327-Z336 (but currently not Z337), Z80-Z83 (but currently not Z84) are available for testing.

In addition L180, L259 (but not Z152-Z155), and Z326 are also available for testing.

Some of the others may also be available for testing, but I am only tracking the ones below Z9

In regards to testing for these SNPs, we have (currently) not been able to find anyone who is positive for only some (but not all) of the Z326-Z336 SNPs. In addition, we have not yet found anyone positive for any of the Z80-Z83 SNPs.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 05:59:35 PM by wing_genealogist » Logged

Y-DNA - R1b M157.2 (a private/family subclade of Z6/Z352) 111 markers tested

mt-DNA - J1c2g with the following private mutations: 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C C9974T C16256T (FMS tested and submitted to GenBank)

Autosomal - shows as a typical English ancestry. Tested with 23andMe, FTDNA
gtc
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 238


« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2012, 01:28:19 AM »

Are all of these available now for testing? I'll add anything that you think people are testing for.

Clinton's diagram color codes those SNPs which are available for testing.
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
palamede
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2012, 05:07:00 PM »


Z346 is a subclade of Z343

Z343 is a subclade of Z346 according to ISOGG and other sources :

   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b   Z1
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b1   S276/Z6
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b2   S512/Z346
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b2*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b2a   S387/Z343
Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
wing_genealogist
Senior Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 81


WWW
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2012, 04:51:04 AM »

I have received word where Jim Wilson from ScotlandsDNA has discovered an individual who is Z344 (which he calls S514) positive, but Z6 (which he calls S276) negative, and he has confirmed he is able to call Z6/S276. He is using a chip-type testing rather than the traditional Sanger-based testing, but it appears to be pretty reliable.

These SNPs are quite far down the phylogenetic tree (the Z based SNPs below R-L48). I have sent a message to Thomas Krahn from FT-DNA about this new information and hope they make Z344 available for testing, as they already have the primers needed to test for this SNP.
Logged

Y-DNA - R1b M157.2 (a private/family subclade of Z6/Z352) 111 markers tested

mt-DNA - J1c2g with the following private mutations: 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C C9974T C16256T (FMS tested and submitted to GenBank)

Autosomal - shows as a typical English ancestry. Tested with 23andMe, FTDNA
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2012, 10:26:14 AM »

I'm just about to update the U106 haplotypes file. Have their been updates to positioning of U106 SNPs since August 1st?  Here is my current understanding of the U106 tree:

U106+  >>> R-U106; * = P107- L6- L217- Z18- Z381-  ** = P107- L6- L217- Z18- Z381- L199- L5-
P107+  >>> R-U106/P107; Terminal
L6+  >>> R-U106/L6; Terminal
L217+  >>> R-U106/L217.1; Terminal
Z18+  >>> R-U106/Z18; * = Z14- L325-  ** = Z14- L325- L653-
Z14+  >>> R-U106/Z18/Z14; * = L257-
L147+  >>> R-U106/Z18/Z14/L147; Terminal
Z372+  >>> R-U106/Z18/Z14/Z372; * = L257-
L257+  >>> R-U106/Z18/Z14/Z372/L257; Terminal
L325+  >>> R-U106/Z18/L325; Terminal
L653+  >>> R-U106/Z18/L653; Terminal
Z381+  >>> R-U106/Z381; * = Z156- Z301-
Z156+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z156; * = Z305-  ** = Z305- L782-
Z305+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z156/Z305; * = L1-  ** = L1-  P89.2- L128-
L1+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z156/Z305/L1; * = L132.1-
L132.1+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z156/Z305/L1/L132.1; Terminal
P89.2+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z156/Z305/P89; Terminal
L128+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z156/Z305/L128; * = L127.2-
L127.2+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z156/Z305/L128/L127.2; Terminal
L782+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z156/L782; Terminal
Z301+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301; * = U198- L48-  ** = U198- L48- L259-
U198+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/U198; * = L129  ** = L129-
L129+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/U198/L129; Terminal
L48+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48; * = L47- Z9-  ** = L47- Z9- L200- L693-
L47+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L47; * = L44-  ** = L44- Z159-
L44+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L47/L44; * = L46-
L46+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L47/L44/L46; * = L164-
L164+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L47/L44/L46/L164; * = L292-
L292+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L47/L44/L46/L164/L292; Terminal
L163+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L47/L44; * = L46-
Z159+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L47/Z159; Terminal
Z9+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9; * = Z2- Z326-
Z10+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9; * = Z2- Z326-
Z2+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2; * = Z7-
Z7+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7; * = Z8-  ** = Z8- L217-
Z8+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8; * = Z11- Z1-  ** = Z11- Z1- M365.4-
Z11+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z11; * = Z12-
Z12+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z11/Z12; * = L148-
L148+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z11/Z12/L148; Terminal
Z1+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z1; * = Z6- Z346-
Z6+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z1/Z6; * = M157.2-  ** = M157.2- L179-
M157.2+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z1/Z6/M157.2; Terminal
L179+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z1/Z6/L179; Terminal
Z346+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z1/Z346; * = Z343-
Z343+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/Z1/Z346/Z343; Terminal
M365.4+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/Z8/M365.4; Terminal
L217.2+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z2/Z7/L217.2; Terminal
Z326+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z326; * = L188-  ** = L188- L696-
L188+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z326/L188; Terminal
L696+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/Z9/Z326/L696; Terminal
L200+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L200; Terminal
L693+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L48/L693; Terminal
L259+  >>> R-U106/Z381/Z301/L259; Terminal
L199+  >>> R-U106/L199; Terminal
L5+  >>> R-U106/L5; Terminal
Z153+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z154+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z155+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z16+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
L189+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z306+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z307+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z327+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z328+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z329+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z330+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z331+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z333+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z334+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z335+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z346+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
L477+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
L493+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z80+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z82+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z83+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
wing_genealogist
Senior Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 81


WWW
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2012, 05:28:58 PM »

P107 is actually unpositioned under U106. If my memory serves me correctly, even FTDNA does not have a P107+ sample to test.

L199 is now L199.1 as L199.2 has been found to occur withing Haplogroup E.

L147 is found under Z14. However, L147 has been found to be a frequent mutater, so FTDNA does not note all of its occurrences.

Z80-Z84 have been found to be under Z326 (per the 1000 Genome Project).
Z153-Z155 have been found to be (so far) Synonymous with L259 (per the 1000 Genome Project)
Z306 & Z307 are (so far) synonymous with Z305 (per the 1000 Genome Project)

Z327-Z336 have all been found (thus far) to be synonymous with Z326 (several have been tested at FTDNA)

I'm not sure if you want to identify family/private SNPs.
Logged

Y-DNA - R1b M157.2 (a private/family subclade of Z6/Z352) 111 markers tested

mt-DNA - J1c2g with the following private mutations: 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C C9974T C16256T (FMS tested and submitted to GenBank)

Autosomal - shows as a typical English ancestry. Tested with 23andMe, FTDNA
gtc
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 238


« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2012, 11:15:55 AM »

P107 is actually unpositioned under U106. If my memory serves me correctly, even FTDNA does not have a P107+ sample to test.

I believe you are correct. AFAIK, P107 was reported by Dr Hammer in a paper some years ago.
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
stoneman
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 141


« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2012, 03:04:55 PM »

R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7>Z8>Z1>Z6> M157.2
5,500>5000>4,500>4000>3,500>3000>2,500>2000>1,500>1000>500                                                                           
Logged
wing_genealogist
Senior Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 81


WWW
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2012, 03:49:25 PM »

R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7>Z8>Z1>Z6> M157.2
5,500>5000>4,500>4000>3,500>3000>2,500>2000>1,500>1000>500                   

While it is nice to think of SNPs being so nice and linear, it is like saying a coin toss will always be heads>tails>heads>tails>heads>tails. 

Both are random events, and one of the core issues with random events are they are irregular, not regular.

We are not even certain on the date of the M157.2 family/private SNP. All that can be said with certainty is that it predates the common ancestor of the Wing Family in America, Rev. John Wing (born 1584).
Logged

Y-DNA - R1b M157.2 (a private/family subclade of Z6/Z352) 111 markers tested

mt-DNA - J1c2g with the following private mutations: 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C C9974T C16256T (FMS tested and submitted to GenBank)

Autosomal - shows as a typical English ancestry. Tested with 23andMe, FTDNA
stoneman
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 141


« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2012, 06:12:17 AM »

Are SNPs random events? There are at least 75,000,000 U106 males with a value of 13 at DYS492. Tell me why you think this is a random event.
Logged
wing_genealogist
Senior Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 81


WWW
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2012, 07:59:40 AM »

The mutation process is believed to be a random event. That doesn't lessen the value of studying its effects (ie the phylogenic haplotree).

It must be remembered the cells in the body have no internal clock telling it "There has been no mutation in so many years, time to produce another mutation". 

We have only just begun to scratch the surface of exploring the Y Chromosome looking for mutations (SNP, STR or otherwise). I am sure there are a lot more discoveries in store for us (and am personally crossing my fingers that at least some of the Y-DNA currently untestable will be able to be tested sometime down the road).
Logged

Y-DNA - R1b M157.2 (a private/family subclade of Z6/Z352) 111 markers tested

mt-DNA - J1c2g with the following private mutations: 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C C9974T C16256T (FMS tested and submitted to GenBank)

Autosomal - shows as a typical English ancestry. Tested with 23andMe, FTDNA
Jarman
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 58


« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2012, 08:12:28 AM »

R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7>Z8>Z1>Z6> M157.2
5,500>5000>4,500>4000>3,500>3000>2,500>2000>1,500>1000>500                             

Not so long ago you used 628 or 600 years per SNP; now you are using 500 years per SNP.  Why the change?

Your post of August 02, 2012:
Quote
I believe that I will have to find at least nine downstream SNPs until I get to a private one. L148 is eleven SNPs downstream of U106. 628 x 11 = 6908 for U106. L148 is a private SNP .

Your post of August 30, 2012:
Quote
9 x 600. L148 is around 600 ybp at the bottom of the U106 tree.Z12 is thought to be 1200 ybp. That may change in future with more research.I think there are a few very bright people on the forums that could build an ancestral haplotype for R1b and each of the subclades.
Logged
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2012, 11:51:34 AM »

P107 is actually unpositioned under U106. If my memory serves me correctly, even FTDNA does not have a P107+ sample to test.

L199 is now L199.1 as L199.2 has been found to occur withing Haplogroup E.

L147 is found under Z14. However, L147 has been found to be a frequent mutater, so FTDNA does not note all of its occurrences.

Z80-Z84 have been found to be under Z326 (per the 1000 Genome Project).
Z153-Z155 have been found to be (so far) Synonymous with L259 (per the 1000 Genome Project)
Z306 & Z307 are (so far) synonymous with Z305 (per the 1000 Genome Project)

Z327-Z336 have all been found (thus far) to be synonymous with Z326 (several have been tested at FTDNA)

I'm not sure if you want to identify family/private SNPs.

Thanks, Ray. I am about to upload a U106 haplotypes file to the U106/S21 Yahoo Group. Here is the clade (phylogenetic relationships) table that I'm using based on your input and what Clinton P had put out prior. Let me know if I have it right. I can add more unpositioned/private SNPs if you think there are some we should track.

I see P107 has been widely tested already. Do you recommend we just discard it from this table so it won't clog up any reporting needlessly?

Should L147 be considered to NOT be reliable as a terminal SNP for U106? Is there much of a chance of multiple occurrences of L147 within U106?

U106+  >>> R1b-U106; * = L6- L217- Z18- Z381-  ** = L6- L217- Z18- Z381- L199- L5-
L6+  >>> R1b-U106>L6; Terminal
L217+  >>> R1b-U106>L217.1; Terminal
Z18+  >>> R1b-U106>Z18; * = Z14- L325-  ** = Z14- L325- L653-
Z14+  >>> R1b-U106>Z18>Z14; * = L257-
L147+  >>> R1b-U106>Z18>Z14>L147; Terminal
L147.4+  >>> R1b-U106>Z18>Z14>L147; Terminal
Z372+  >>> R1b-U106>Z18>Z14>Z372; * = L257-
L257+  >>> R1b-U106>Z18>Z14>Z372>L257; Terminal
L325+  >>> R1b-U106>Z18>L325; Terminal
L653+  >>> R1b-U106>Z18>L653; Terminal
Z381+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381; * = Z156- Z301-
Z156+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z156; * = Z305-  ** = Z305- L782-
Z305+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z156>Z305; * = L1-  ** = L1-  P89.2- L128-
L1+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z156>Z305>L1; * = L132.1-
L132.1+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z156>Z305>L1>L132.1; Terminal
P89.2+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z156>Z305>P89; Terminal
L128+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z156>Z305>L128; * = L127.2-
L127.2+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z156>Z305>L128>L127.2; Terminal
L782+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z156>L782; Terminal
Z301+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301; * = U198- L48-  ** = U198- L48- L259-
U198+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>U198; * = L129  ** = L129-
L129+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>U198>L129; Terminal
L48+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48; * = L47- Z9-  ** = L47- Z9- L200- L693-
L47+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>L47; * = L44-  ** = L44- Z159-
L44+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>L47>L44; * = L46-
L46+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>L47>L44>L46; * = L164-
L164+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>L47>L44>L46>L164; * = L292-
L292+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>L47>L44>L46>L164>L292; Terminal
L163+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>L47>L44; * = L46-
Z159+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>L47>Z159; Terminal
Z9+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9; * = Z2- Z326-
Z10+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9; * = Z2- Z326-
Z2+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2; * = Z7-
Z7+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7; * = Z8-  ** = Z8- L217-
Z8+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7>Z8; * = Z11- Z1-  ** = Z11- Z1- M365.4-
Z11+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7>Z8>Z11; * = Z12-
Z12+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7>Z8>Z11>Z12; * = L148-
L148+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7>Z8>Z11>Z12>L148; Terminal
Z1+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7>Z8>Z1; * = Z6- Z346-
Z6+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7>Z8>Z1>Z6; * = M157.2-  ** = M157.2- L179-
M157.2+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7>Z8>Z1>Z6/M157.2; Terminal
L179+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7>Z8>Z1>Z6>L179; Terminal
Z346+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7>Z8>Z1>Z346; * = Z343-
Z343+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7>Z8>Z1>Z346>Z343; Terminal
M365.4+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7>Z8/M365.4; Terminal
L217.2+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7>L217.2; Terminal
Z326+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z326; * = L188-  ** = L188- L696-
L188+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z326>L188; Terminal
L696+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z326>L696; Terminal
L200+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>L200; Terminal
L693+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>L693; Terminal
L259+  >>> R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L259; Terminal
L199+  >>> R1b-U106>L199.1; Terminal
L199.1+  >>> R1b-U106>L199.1; Terminal
L5+  >>> R1b-U106>L5; Terminal
P107+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z16+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
L189+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z346+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
L477+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
L493+ >>> Unpositioned under U106
Z306+ >>> Unpositioned under Z156
Z307+ >>> Unpositioned under Z156
Z153+ >>> Unpositioned under Z301
Z154+ >>> Unpositioned under Z301
Z155+ >>> Unpositioned under Z301
Z327+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z328+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z329+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z330+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z331+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z333+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z334+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z335+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z336+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z80+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z83+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z82+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326
Z84+ >>> Unpositioned under Z326

Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
stoneman
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 141


« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2012, 01:13:19 PM »

You are right .I was quoting someone else. I just put it out there for debate.I think U106 is Neolithic. I asked someone last year about the age of SNPs and he reckoned 500 years on average. I also think that all the branches will be of the same lenth with the same number of SNPS.



R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7>Z8>Z1>Z6> M157.2
5,500>5000>4,500>4000>3,500>3000>2,500>2000>1,500>1000>500                             

Not so long ago you used 628 or 600 years per SNP; now you are using 500 years per SNP.  Why the change?

Your post of August 02, 2012:
Quote
I believe that I will have to find at least nine downstream SNPs until I get to a private one. L148 is eleven SNPs downstream of U106. 628 x 11 = 6908 for U106. L148 is a private SNP .

Your post of August 30, 2012:
Quote
9 x 600. L148 is around 600 ybp at the bottom of the U106 tree.Z12 is thought to be 1200 ybp. That may change in future with more research.I think there are a few very bright people on the forums that could build an ancestral haplotype for R1b and each of the subclades.

Logged
Jdean
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 678


« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2012, 02:02:59 PM »

You are right .I was quoting someone else. I just put it out there for debate.I think U106 is Neolithic. I asked someone last year about the age of SNPs and he reckoned 500 years on average. I also think that all the branches will be of the same lenth with the same number of SNPS.

I just did a quick count (which probably means there's a small +/- error) of the known SNPs from L148 and Z80 (etc) to U106, which was 29 & 40 respectfully.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 02:22:30 PM by Jdean » Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

wing_genealogist
Senior Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 81


WWW
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2012, 04:18:17 PM »

... I also think that all the branches will be of the same length with the same number of SNPS. ...

There is no reason why everyone will have the same number of SNPs. That is like saying everyone will have the same number of heartbeats in their lifetime.  The nature of the [mutation] beast is randomness. Some will have more, and some will have less.

Another rough analogy is looking at a cards  table. If there are a large number of folks playing at the table, some will beat the dealer and others will lose to the dealer. There is no sense of order in the "chaos" of randomness. However, overall, the dealer knows he will win a significantly high enough percentage of the time to make some money, otherwise they wouldn't be in business. (just like we can do some analysis of understanding the SNPs even if we cannot define exactly when & how they occur).

« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 04:19:08 PM by wing_genealogist » Logged

Y-DNA - R1b M157.2 (a private/family subclade of Z6/Z352) 111 markers tested

mt-DNA - J1c2g with the following private mutations: 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C C9974T C16256T (FMS tested and submitted to GenBank)

Autosomal - shows as a typical English ancestry. Tested with 23andMe, FTDNA
wing_genealogist
Senior Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 81


WWW
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2012, 04:28:36 PM »


...
Thanks, Ray. I am about to upload a U106 haplotypes file to the U106/S21 Yahoo Group. Here is the clade (phylogenetic relationships) table that I'm using based on your input and what Clinton P had put out prior. Let me know if I have it right. I can add more unpositioned/private SNPs if you think there are some we should track.

I see P107 has been widely tested already. Do you recommend we just discard it from this table so it won't clog up any reporting needlessly?

Should L147 be considered to NOT be reliable as a terminal SNP for U106? Is there much of a chance of multiple occurrences of L147 within U106?
...

Checking the U106 Project, I noted where, within this project, 935 individuals have tested P107- with no P107+.  Checking Thomas Krahn's Y Chromosome Browser

http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/hs_chrY?ref=ChrY;start=13329287;end=13329287;name=P107;class=Sequence;feature_id=43887;db_id=ymap%3Adatabase

 I note where overall, P107 has been tested 2655 times with only 1 positive result.  As such, I feel it is safe to list it as unpositioned.

I personally feel L147.x should be included in the tree, but I don't believe it should be posted as L147.4 Again, according to Thomas Krahn's Y Chromosome Browser

http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/hs_chrY?ref=ChrY;start=6813258;end=6813258;name=L147.4;class=Sequence;feature_id=41914;db_id=ymap%3Adatabase

L147.4 is found under the I haplogroup. (L147.1 is in the J Haplogroup; L147.2 in the O haplogroup & L147.3 under R1b-P312).
Logged

Y-DNA - R1b M157.2 (a private/family subclade of Z6/Z352) 111 markers tested

mt-DNA - J1c2g with the following private mutations: 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C C9974T C16256T (FMS tested and submitted to GenBank)

Autosomal - shows as a typical English ancestry. Tested with 23andMe, FTDNA
stoneman
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 141


« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2012, 11:11:20 AM »

I am sorry that I used your private SNP as an example.I didnt mean any offence.It would be great help to all of us if we could put a timeframe on all of these subclades. I think that you are one of the lucky ones.Some people are still stuck at U106*.

R1b-U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z2>Z7>Z8>Z1>Z6> M157.2
5,500>5000>4,500>4000>3,500>3000>2,500>2000>1,500>1000>500                    

While it is nice to think of SNPs being so nice and linear, it is like saying a coin toss will always be heads>tails>heads>tails>heads>tails.  

Both are random events, and one of the core issues with random events are they are irregular, not regular.

We are not even certain on the date of the M157.2 family/private SNP. All that can be said with certainty is that it predates the common ancestor of the Wing Family in America, Rev. John Wing (born 1584).
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 11:11:39 AM by stoneman » Logged
wing_genealogist
Senior Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 81


WWW
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2012, 06:17:04 PM »

@Stoneman - I am not in the least bit offended, and I hope I have not offended you in my replies either.

As with any technical issue, there is a learning curve, and a struggle to understand the core issues.  I would be the first to say the mathematics of TMRCA estimation are still beyond my understanding (and math was my strong suit in school).

I agree, it would be REAL nice to have some hard and fast numbers around the time-frame. However, the reality of the situation is that it is a VERY complicated issue, and the random nature of the mutations make it impossible to precisely date clades. The best we can do is come up with rough estimates (and try to refine them over time).

I definitely feel lucky in finding a family/private SNP while we are still very much in the infancy stage of genetic genealogy (DNA testing).
Logged

Y-DNA - R1b M157.2 (a private/family subclade of Z6/Z352) 111 markers tested

mt-DNA - J1c2g with the following private mutations: 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C C9974T C16256T (FMS tested and submitted to GenBank)

Autosomal - shows as a typical English ancestry. Tested with 23andMe, FTDNA
stoneman
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 141


« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2012, 09:47:01 AM »

I took no offence to anything that you posted at anytime.
Perhaps you could help all of us U106 people by finding out the staus of your SNPs back to U106. Starting with your own family you have a TMRCA, location and SNP. Have you worked on the next SNP upstream?
Logged
wing_genealogist
Senior Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 81


WWW
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2012, 05:20:09 PM »

I took no offence to anything that you posted at anytime.
Perhaps you could help all of us U106 people by finding out the staus of your SNPs back to U106. Starting with your own family you have a TMRCA, location and SNP. Have you worked on the next SNP upstream?

I have ordered the Nat Geno 2.0 test, and have mailed it back today. There is a remote possibility of discovering some SNPs between Z6 and my (presumably private/family) M157.2.  The 1000 Genome Project had 2 samples from Kent, England who were Z6. Both of these samples had more SNPs below this level, but as they were the only individuals with those SNPs, they weren't investigated.

EDIT:  Just for the record, the individuals had DIFFERENT SNPs below Z6. Given the technology, there is no guarantee these are actual mutations, and they may be phantom relics of the low coverage testing.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 05:22:34 PM by wing_genealogist » Logged

Y-DNA - R1b M157.2 (a private/family subclade of Z6/Z352) 111 markers tested

mt-DNA - J1c2g with the following private mutations: 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C C9974T C16256T (FMS tested and submitted to GenBank)

Autosomal - shows as a typical English ancestry. Tested with 23andMe, FTDNA
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.113 seconds with 18 queries.