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Author Topic: How Celtic are the Scots-Irish?  (Read 16353 times)
avalon
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« on: July 30, 2012, 01:14:08 PM »

This has always intrigued me because much of the historical and linguistic evidence in the area they originally came from points to Scandinavian roots. By the way, in this post I use the word "Celtic" as a general term for the pre-Roman population of Britain and Ireland.

The Scots-Irish, also known as the Ulster Scots or Borderers migrated in large numbers to the United States during the 18th century having previously settled the plantations of Ulster. Other settlers to Ulster came from northern England.
 
Their source of origin in Britain was always said to be the lawless, border area between England and Scotland, an area that today comprises the counties of Cumbria, Northumberland, Dumfries and Borders.

Historically this area has been settled by the Anglo-Saxons, Danes and Norse Vikings, as evidenced by place names with Scandinavian origins and burials. Cumbria in particular has numerous place names ending in by and Norse burial sites.

Surnames in this region also point to a Scandinavian origin as names ending in son are most common in Northumberland. I am aware that naming practices are cultural, not genetic.

When I look for dna data the lowlands of Scotland always seem to be largely ignored, however when we look at the "People of Britain" genetic map there are orange squares in border area that denote a distinctive genetic group.

http://sse.royalsociety.org/2012/exhibits/genetic-maps/



The only other data I have seen for this area is Capelli's Y Chromosome census of Britain that sampled Penrith and Morpeth. Morpeth clustered close to towns associated with Anglo-Saxon England, whereas Penrith was closer to the Western Isles of Scotland.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2012, 03:04:35 PM »

My knowledge, for what it's worth, is largely Borders-based, but here goes:
Inglewood Forest covered a fair swathe of Cumbria, so read ' Angle' for 'Ingle'?  As I, & others, have mentioned elsewhere various kings of Scotland encouraged Norman & Flemish settlement into the Borders & beyond.

I've found strong links between the Cotentin Peninsula in Normandy and Lincolnshire. From there, many went north west to Cumberland.

Cumberland was Scottish at times, but when  William Rufus brought the region under his control, he bolstered the area with folk from Lincolnshire, so many Anglo-Saxons would surely have been included, plus some Bretons.

In 1124, King David I of Scotland, (Prince of Cumberland), encouraged Normans & Flemings to settle in Scotland. Later, in 1154, Flemings were expelled from England by Henry II. Many of these were welcomed by the Scots.

Beryl Platts makes a fair case for the following clans being Flemish:Bruce,  Douglas, Hamilton, Hay, Lindsay, Rutherford & Graham. Of course, we can't forget those of Angle stock who pushed up the east coast of England into Scotland.

A probable Pictish enclave was found in Roxburghshire, & we know of the Irish tribes who colonised Scotland. The Brythonic Kingdoms of Rheged (inc Cumberland) & Strathclyde (Ystrad Clud) shouldn't be ignored either as they obviously dominated large parts of north west England & southern Scotland at one time. I imagine their descendants still survive in numbers today.

Some myths/legends attached to various Border families have been proven to be dubious. The Anglo-Dane, Siward was said to be the Armstrong progenitor, but his son Waltheof died without recorded male issue. I believe other surnames have similar problems.

Most of the clans from the Scottish side of the Border show fairly typical 75% R1b dominance. From memory, I think the Carruthers clan was one of the few who had a high (80%) I1 presence. The Crawfords came in at about 55%: Surname DB suggests the Crawfords were of Anglo-Saxon origin. Some recent reports suggest that Brythonic Celt DNA strongly dominates the western third of Britain, so suppose a good percentage of Scots-Irish will be Celts of some sort.
Hope this helps!
Cheers,
Bob
PS Virtually every Borderer's family tree includes the same list of names: Armstrong, Elliot, Graham, Scott, Little, Johnstone, Nixon, Routledge, Bell etc, etc.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 06:43:16 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
samIsaack
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« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2012, 02:24:15 PM »

Depending on whether or not you view SRY2627 as Celtic, my y-line is Ulster Scottish.. With a Dal Riadic surname.. MacIsaeck or something similar anglicised to Isaeck/Isaack and then to Isaacks/Isaacs. So my y-line may have originally came from Ireland and before that the Continent.   

Another family that I know of who may have origins on the borders would be the Lindsay family who settled in Frederick County, Va.. So far they belong to Z196*. I've also heard something of Rox2 cluster being Z196 and they are of Scots background as well.

Scotland paints an interesting P312 picture once you get past the Vanilla L21's.
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
Castlebob
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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2012, 02:37:58 PM »

The Lindsay clan appear to hail from Lincolnshiure, Sam. Gilbert de Ghent, a Fleming, was 1st Earl of Lincoln. His 3rd son was Walter of Folkingham, Lincs. In 1124, Walter accompanied David, Earl of Huntingdon , when he went to Scotland to claim the throne. Walter settled at Earlston, Tweeddale & established the surname 'Lindsey' (sic). He chose the name Lindsay in homage to his Lincs roots - Lindsey (with an 'e' being an old kingdom in Anglo-Saxon times.
The Lindsay clan were often Lord Chamberlains to the Scottish kings - Bruce being one such monarch. The de Brus family were thought to be from Flanders before arriving in the Cotentin. Take a look at the Blue Lion of Bruges - identical to the Bruce's.
An early land-holder in the Borders was Turgos Brundas, a Fleming. The Flemings were thought to be among the principal castle builders of Scotland.
Cheers,
Bob
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 12:51:18 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
samIsaack
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« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2012, 02:39:04 PM »

It seems a cluster of the Stewarts belong to the Rox2 cluster as well..

"There are a group of Stewarts, tested to at least 67 markers, who match the wider Rox2 YDNA cluster. This R1b-P312* cluster, containing a variety of surnames, was named 'Rox2' by Jim Turner some years ago, he created the YSearch ID: 3QNM8"

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/stewart/default.aspx?section=yresults
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
samIsaack
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« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2012, 02:46:29 PM »

The Lindsay clan appear to hail from Lincolnshiure, Sam. Gilbert de Ghent, a Fleming, was 1st Earl of Lincoln. His 3rd son was Walter of Folkingham, Lincs. In 1124, Walter accompanied David, Earl of Huntingdon , when he went to Scotland to claim the throne. Walter settled at Earlston, Tweeddale & established the surname 'Lindsey' (sic). He chose the name Lindsay in homage to his Lincs roots - Lindsey (with an 'e' being an old kingdom in Anglo-Saxon times.
The Lindsay clan were often Lord Chamberlains to the Scottish kings - Bruce being one such monarch. The de Brus family were thought to be from Flanders before arriving in the Cotentin. Take a look at the Blue Lion of Bruges - identical to the Bruce's.
An early land-holder in the Borders was Turgos Brundas as Fleming. The Flemings were thought to be among the principal castle builders of Scotland.
Cheers,
Bob

Would be interesting to know if these Lindsays were genetically Anglo-Saxon or if they just adopted the surname.. I guess a milkman scenario or two could have changed things around.

Seems most of the Lindsays belong to either L21 or I of some type.. I'd say the I's were the originals and P312s were those who either adopted the surname or were Npe's.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/LindseyLindsay/default.aspx?section=yresults
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Y-Dna: R1b-SRY2627

Mtdna: J1c8
avalon
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« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2012, 03:52:03 PM »

My knowledge, for what it's worth, is largely Borders-based, but here goes:
Inglewood Forest covered a fair swathe of Cumbria, so read ' Angle' for 'Ingle'?  As I, & others, have mentioned elsewhere various kings of Scotland encouraged Norman & Flemish settlement into the Borders & beyond.

I've found strong links between the Cotentin Peninsula in Normandy and Lincolnshire. From there, many went north west to Cumberland.

Cumberland was Scottish at times, but when  William Rufus brought the region under his control, he bolstered the area with folk from Lincolnshire, so many Anglo-Saxons would surely have been included, plus some Bretons.

In 1124, King David I of Scotland, (Prince of Cumberland), encouraged Normans & Flemings to settle in Scotland. Later, in 1154, Flemings were expelled from England by Henry II. Many of these were welcomed by the Scots.

Beryl Platts makes a fair case for the following clans being Flemish:Bruce,  Douglas, Hamilton, Hay, Lindsay, Rutherford & Graham. Of course, we can't forget those of Angle stock who pushed up the east coast of England into Scotland.

A probable Pictish enclave was found in Roxburghshire, & we know of the Irish tribes who colonised Scotland. The Brythonic Kingdoms of Rheged (inc Cumberland) & Strathclyde (Ystrad Clud) shouldn't be ignored either as they obviously dominated large parts of north west England & southern Scotland at one time. I imagine their descendants still survive in numbers today.

Some myths/legends attached to various Border families have been proven to be dubious. The Anglo-Dane, Siward was said to be the Armstrong progenitor, but his son Waltheof died without recorded male issue. I believe other surnames have similar problems.

Most of the clans from the Scottish side of the Border show fairly typical 75% R1b dominance. From memory, I think the Carruthers clan was one of the few who had a high (80%) I1 presence. The Crawfords came in at about 55%: Surname DB suggests the Crawfords were of Anglo-Saxon origin. Some recent reports suggest that Brythonic Celt DNA strongly dominates the western third of Britain, so suppose a good percentage of Scots-Irish will be Celts of some sort.
Hope this helps!
Cheers,
Bob
PS Virtually every Borderer's family tree includes the same list of names: Armstrong, Elliot, Graham, Scott, Little, Johnstone, Nixon, Routledge, Bell etc, etc.

Thanks Bob, you clearly are quite knowledgeable on this subject.

Like so many other parts of Britain the Borders seem to have a very mixed population, which is not suprising given all the influences throughout history and the fact that fundamentally Britian is a thoroughly mongrel nation.

Frustratingly; archaeology, linguistics, surnames, etc, only really give us a clue as to what happened in history, who came from where, how many came? How many of the natives survived?

So we look to genetics for the definitive answer. As I understand it though, genetics is not yet able to say definitively that a certain region, for instance Northumberland, is for example 40% Celtic, 20% Anglo Saxon, 15% Dane or whatever?



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avalon
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« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2012, 04:57:00 PM »

The Lindsay clan appear to hail from Lincolnshiure, Sam. Gilbert de Ghent, a Fleming, was 1st Earl of Lincoln. His 3rd son was Walter of Folkingham, Lincs. In 1124, Walter accompanied David, Earl of Huntingdon , when he went to Scotland to claim the throne. Walter settled at Earlston, Tweeddale & established the surname 'Lindsey' (sic). He chose the name Lindsay in homage to his Lincs roots - Lindsey (with an 'e' being an old kingdom in Anglo-Saxon times.
The Lindsay clan were often Lord Chamberlains to the Scottish kings - Bruce being one such monarch. The de Brus family were thought to be from Flanders before arriving in the Cotentin. Take a look at the Blue Lion of Bruges - identical to the Bruce's.
An early land-holder in the Borders was Turgos Brundas as Fleming. The Flemings were thought to be among the principal castle builders of Scotland.
Cheers,
Bob

Would be interesting to know if these Lindsays were genetically Anglo-Saxon or if they just adopted the surname.. I guess a milkman scenario or two could have changed things around.

Seems most of the Lindsays belong to either L21 or I of some type.. I'd say the I's were the originals and P312s were those who either adopted the surname or were Npe's.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/LindseyLindsay/default.aspx?section=yresults

You might find there are genetic differences between Lindsey and Lindsay. If you look at this website:
http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Map2.aspx?name=LINDSEY&year=1881&altyear=1998&country=GB&type=name

which is a great resource for the origin of surnames, then the 1881 census of Britain shows that Lindsey appears to be a very English surname whereas Lindsay has a more Scottish origin, centered around the Dundee area.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2012, 05:04:15 PM »

Thanks for the unwarranted flattery, Avalon! Any skills I have are more genealogical than DNA-based. I'm guessing that your use of the name 'Avalon' indicates an interest in the Arthurian legend? That really is something that I know gets folk riled - usually resulting in a Cornwall v Wales battle. There are a lot of Cumbrians & Scots who think that much of the story is connected with their territory.
Back to the dilemma re separating surnames into haplogroups etc: I dare say there won't be a hard-&-fast rule re that for a few years, or if ever, but I'm hoping that some sort of rough guide might be possible.
The problem with historical records is that they focus largely on those who held power. Following the Conquest, records focused largely on the names of the Norman invaders, their descendants, & allies. The casual researcher could easily be forgiven for thinking that the Brythonic Celts had all but disappeared. I would say that they never went away!
To suggest percentages of 'tribes' for  certain counties is a task far beyond my scope, but I hope we can eventually make that leap.
Cheers,
Bob
PS Thanks for the links to Lindsay etc. I'll take a look tomorrow
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 05:13:04 PM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
avalon
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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2012, 03:45:01 PM »

Thanks for the unwarranted flattery, Avalon! Any skills I have are more genealogical than DNA-based. I'm guessing that your use of the name 'Avalon' indicates an interest in the Arthurian legend? That really is something that I know gets folk riled - usually resulting in a Cornwall v Wales battle. There are a lot of Cumbrians & Scots who think that much of the story is connected with their territory.
Back to the dilemma re separating surnames into haplogroups etc: I dare say there won't be a hard-&-fast rule re that for a few years, or if ever, but I'm hoping that some sort of rough guide might be possible.
The problem with historical records is that they focus largely on those who held power. Following the Conquest, records focused largely on the names of the Norman invaders, their descendants, & allies. The casual researcher could easily be forgiven for thinking that the Brythonic Celts had all but disappeared. I would say that they never went away!
To suggest percentages of 'tribes' for  certain counties is a task far beyond my scope, but I hope we can eventually make that leap.
Cheers,
Bob
PS Thanks for the links to Lindsay etc. I'll take a look tomorrow

Like you my knowledge is more history/genealogy based and when it comes to DNA I'm still learning.

Oh and yes, I've  always had a passing interest in King Arthur, who was definitely Welsh!
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